Southern Discomfort: U.S. Army seeks removal of Lee, ‘Stonewall’ Jackson honors

LineInTheSand said:
Ok, so instead of "fighting against the U.S." we can just say "killed many U.S. soldiers."

And yes, they were traitors, and had the colonies not won, they would have been (and in reality were truely) traitors to the British. Luckily the colonies won.
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There was reason the colonists were traitors. From the Broadway Play 1776, an exchange between Continental Congressmen Dickenson and Franklin

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Please Mr. Dickinson, but must you start banging? How is a man to sleep?
[laughter from Congress]
John Dickinson: Forgive me, Dr. Franklin, but must YOU start speaking? How is a man to stay awake?
[More laughter]
John Dickinson: We'll promise to be quiet - I'm sure everyone prefers that you remained asleep.
Dr. Benjamin Franklin: If I'm to hear myself called an Englishman, sir, I assure you I prefer I'd remained asleep.
John Dickinson: What's so terrible about being called an Englishman? The English don't seem to mind.
Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Nor would I, were I given the full rights of an Englishman. But to call me one without those rights is like calling an ox a bull. He's thankful for the honor, but he'd much rather have restored what's rightfully his.
[laughter]
John Dickinson: When did you first notice they were missing, sir?
[laughter]
 
Christcorp said:
The confederacy was not fighting "Against" the United States. The southern states were PART of the United States. Hence, a "Civil War". Just because citizens of a country, who organized, and participated in a civil war wound up on the "Losing Side", doesn't mean they were fighting "Against" the United States. Had the south won the civil war, would the northern states be looked at in history as fighting "Against" the United States? ALL the states involved in the Civil War were part of the "UNITED STATES".

If the same thing happened today, whereby certain states believed that the federal government was over stepping their authority and disregarding the 10th amendment and ignoring "State's Rights", that wouldn't mean that the states in question were fighting "Against" the United States. This has nothing to do with slavery or anything else. Our country IS, was FOUNDED UPON, and hopefully always will be: "50 INDEPENDENT States, UNITED for matters of "INTER-STATE" and "INTER-NATIONAL" affairs. And yes, there are plenty of issues, whereby the FEDERAL Government has overstepped their authority. Then again; there are still people who believe the "Civil War" was fought specifically for the purpose of abolishing slavery. But even the reason WHY we had a civil war, is not important to the discussion.

But again; neither Lee, Jackson, or any other "Confederate State", fought AGAINST the United States. That would mean fighting against "Themselves", because they WERE PART OF the United States. And if they would be considered "Traitors"; then every colony and citizen would have to be considered traitors when we fought against the British for our independence. After all, we were "British Subjects" at the time.
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Well, on the first point, the Confederacy itself considered that it was fighting against the "United States" -- they saw themselves as a new country fighting against the old country they had broken away from. Interestingly, many in the North said "no, they are not a separate country, they are just rebelling states" -- but under international law the CSA was essentially given the status of a "belligerent nation." So, for example, the British recognized the Union right to a blockade. And the U.S. backed off from an early threat to hang captured Confederate naval personnel as pirates -- instead they treated them as prisoners of war, as they would have had they been from a truly separate country. The issue of the status of the seceding states was very tricky legally during Reconstruction. Lincoln during wartime took the approach that they were still states, but were in rebellion, while some Republicans in Congress had a theory that the states who had fought against the U.S. had committed "state suicide" and were not to be entitled to the rights the "loyal" states had, but would start from scratch.

On the second point, heck yes our founding fathers were traitors! They were British subjects who fought against the Crown! But successful traitors aren't rebels, they are founding fathers in a war for independence! The poet Pope said it briefly and wittily:

"Treason doth Never Prosper.
What's the Reason?
Because if it Prosper
None Dare Call it Treason."

Bottom line: ya gotta win.

(Second bottom line: I am a history nerd.)
 
Thank you for validating my point. And LITS, while it can be said that the south killed many U.S soldiers, the same can be said that the north also killed many U.S soldiers. The southern states were still technically part of the united states. Hence the reason for qualifying names such as the north, union, south, Confederates.
 
NorwichDad said:
There was reason the colonists were traitors. From the Broadway Play 1776, an exchange between Continental Congressmen Dickenson and Franklin

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Please Mr. Dickinson, but must you start banging? How is a man to sleep?
[laughter from Congress]
John Dickinson: Forgive me, Dr. Franklin, but must YOU start speaking? How is a man to stay awake?
[More laughter]
John Dickinson: We'll promise to be quiet - I'm sure everyone prefers that you remained asleep.
Dr. Benjamin Franklin: If I'm to hear myself called an Englishman, sir, I assure you I prefer I'd remained asleep.
John Dickinson: What's so terrible about being called an Englishman? The English don't seem to mind.
Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Nor would I, were I given the full rights of an Englishman. But to call me one without those rights is like calling an ox a bull. He's thankful for the honor, but he'd much rather have restored what's rightfully his.
[laughter]
John Dickinson: When did you first notice they were missing, sir?
[laughter]
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I played Adams in a community production of 1776 last year. I still remember most of the lines and songs...

JA on Dickinson: "...you and your Pennsylvania proprietors. You cool, considerate men. You keep to the rear on every issue, so that if we should go under, you'll still remain afloat"
Dickinson: "Are you calling me a coward?"
JA: "Yes. Coward!!"

Then there was a big cane fight....

Great show
 
sprog said:
I played Adams in a community production of 1776 last year. I still remember most of the lines and songs...

JA on Dickinson: "...you and your Pennsylvania proprietors. You cool, considerate men. You keep to the rear on every issue, so that if we should go under, you'll still remain afloat"
Dickinson: "Are you calling me a coward?"
JA: "Yes. Coward!!"

Then there was a big cane fight....

Great show
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JA is a great part, congrats. I got to see it two birthdays in a row in grammar school on Broadway. Won Best Musical on broadway 1969 I think. My parents knew I liked it. Warner Brothers made it into a movie a yaer later which is great to watch but did not do too well. It is a great choice if you have Netflix with Deliveries. I actually own the CD and my kids love it.

1776-musical.jpg
 
Christcorp said:
Thank you for validating my point. And LITS, while it can be said that the south killed many U.S soldiers, the same can be said that the north also killed many U.S soldiers. The southern states were still technically part of the united states. Hence the reason for qualifying names such as the north, union, south, Confederates.
Click to expand...

And yet, they renounced their commissions, so they we not U.S. soldiers. The southern states drew up their own constitution/laws/government.... had their own president. They had their own flags.

Yeah, I grew up in the south, and I can tell you, I don't know many people who believed the Confederate States of America were "the United States" during the civil war.
 
We should remember that the victor generally writes the history books.
 
LineInTheSand said:
And yet, they renounced their commissions, so they we not U.S. soldiers. The southern states drew up their own constitution/laws/government.... had their own president. They had their own flags.

Yeah, I grew up in the south, and I can tell you, I don't know many people who believed the Confederate States of America were "the United States" during the civil war.
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I think it depends on who you ask. Were the 13 Colonies the United States in 1776, or were they simply colonies in rebellion until the Treaty of Paris was signed in 1783?
If you were a loyalist/Brit, you would probably have said the latter. If you were a patriot (or traitor to the crown!), you'd probably have said 1776.
 
raimius said:
I think it depends on who you ask. Were the 13 Colonies the United States in 1776, or were they simply colonies in rebellion until the Treaty of Paris was signed in 1783?
If you were a loyalist/Brit, you would probably have said the latter. If you were a patriot (or traitor to the crown!), you'd probably have said 1776.
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The colonies were British, yep. By 1812, not so much, but you have to be something first before you renounce being it. And had the colonists lost.... it would have just been an uprising, not an independent state.
 
LineInTheSand said:
We should remember that the victor generally writes the history books.
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One more exchange from 1776
Dr. Benjamin Franklin: John, really. You talk as if independence were the rule. It's never been done before. No colony has ever broken from the parent stem in the history of the world.

John Adams: Damn it, Franklin! You make us sound treasonous.

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Do I? Treason, eh?

[thoughtfully]

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Treason is a charge invented by winners as an excuse for hanging the losers.

John Adams: [scoffs] I have more to do than stand here listening to you quote yourself.

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: No, that was a new one.
 
NorwichDad said:
One more exchange from 1776
Dr. Benjamin Franklin: John, really. You talk as if independence were the rule. It's never been done before. No colony has ever broken from the parent stem in the history of the world.

John Adams: Damn it, Franklin! You make us sound treasonous.

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Do I? Treason, eh?

[thoughtfully]

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Treason is a charge invented by winners as an excuse for hanging the losers.

John Adams: [scoffs] I have more to do than stand here listening to you quote yourself.

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: No, that was a new one.
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Reconciliation my ass! The people want independence.
 
MabryPsyD said:
Why don't we honor Benedict Arnold? Now take that reasoning and apply it to Jackson and Lee...
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There actually is a monument honoring Arnold at the Saratoga National Battlefield. The twist on the memorial is that it does not name Arnold. The monument is a plain soldier's boot, with this inscription:

"Erected 1887 By
JOHN WATTS de PEYSTER
Brev: Maj: Gen: S.N.Y.
2nd V. Pres't Saratoga Mon't Ass't'n:
In memory of
the "most brilliant soldier" of the
Continental Army
who was desperately wounded
on this spot the sally port of
BORGOYNES GREAT WESTERN REDOUBT
7th October, 1777
winning for his countrymen
the decisive battle of the
American Revolution
and for himself the rank of
Major General."

Arnold was wounded in the leg at Saratoga, hence the boot.
 
MemberLG said:
More than likely I will visit the War College this spring, so I can revive the thread.
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Visited two buildings, one building didn't really have any pictures and other building did. That building had some paintings of Confederate soldiers.

Have to say MG Cucolo is a great speaker also.
 
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