Squadron Life After Grad for Pilots

[FØB Zero]

Howdy,
I am planning on applying to USAFA/USNA/NROTC. I looked up a lot of info on career after grad, but couldn’t find a lot on the relationships between officers and enlisted personnel and between squadrons in general. How is leadership relevant/used when a pilot? On a daily basis? During flight school? Input for either navy or AF would be awesome!
Thank you.

 

[pilot2b]

Marine pilot here. Some of the answer to your question depends on the platform. Do enlisted fly on your platform with you (for example, P-8, an H-60, V-22, etc) or do you fly alone or just with another officer (F-18 for example). Leadership is certainly relevant on a daily basis interacting on the ground with enlisted. Depending on your platform though, you may be exercising leadership in the air as well. Sometimes the fact that you fly with someone can affect the interactions to some degree on the ground.

Your interactions with enlisted during flight school are minimal and limited. Your job is simply to learn the foundations of your craft there.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

P2B is correct. I was a P3 NFO, and was Mission Commander/Tactical coordinator with a crew of 12, including 7 enlisted.
In addition, I was a Maintenance Division Officer, responsible for 3 branches, and about 50-60 people.
Leadership responsibilities and relationships were different in those settings -- I would say that I was a lot closer with my aircrew than I was with my maintenance troops ...although about half of my Division were also aircrew (Inflight Techs and Ordinancemen) that I flew with frequently.

I should also mention that Navy is organized differently than Air Force. Part of my training was at an Air Force Base, so I saw how USAF operated, and the Aircrews were usually assigned to one Squadron, and Maintenance was a different squadron. A Navy squadron is fully integrated, so the aircrews have ground jobs, including leading maintenance troop., operations, administration, etc. Balancing flight and ground duties was often difficult, particularly on deployment when we were "flapping" , or conducting round the clock flight operations. Most of my Branch Officers and Chiefs were also on aircrews so it wasn't uncommon to go a few days without seeing them. I don't think Air Force has that issue, but someone else can speak to that.

 

[kittkatt]

I should also mention that Navy is organized differently than Air Force. Part of my training was at an Air Force Base, so I saw how USAF operated, and the Aircrews were usually assigned to one Squadron, and Maintenance was a different squadron. A Navy squadron is fully integrated, so the aircrews have ground jobs, including leading maintenance troop., operations, administration, etc. Balancing flight and ground duties was often difficult, particularly on deployment when we were "flapping" , or conducting round the clock flight operations. Most of my Branch Officers and Chiefs were also on aircrews so it wasn't uncommon to go a few days without seeing them. I don't think Air Force has that issue, but someone else can speak to that.

When it comes to queep, which branch/platforms have more for the pilots/aircrews?

 

[FØB Zero]

Marine pilot here. Some of the answer to your question depends on the platform. Do enlisted fly on your platform with you (for example, P-8, an H-60, V-22, etc) or do you fly alone or just with another officer (F-18 for example). Leadership is certainly relevant on a daily basis interacting on the ground with enlisted. Depending on your platform though, you may be exercising leadership in the air as well. Sometimes the fact that you fly with someone can affect the interactions to some degree on the ground.

Your interactions with enlisted during flight school are minimal and limited. Your job is simply to learn the foundations of your craft there.

Thanks so much for thorough answers and describing your first hand experience. I’ve always wondered how pilots exert leadership WHILE flying- is it more through communications, working with the co-pilot, training others, or directing enlisted personnel? Or a mix? Thanks a lot for differentiating tasks of AF from Navy too.

P2B is correct. I was a P3 NFO, and was Mission Commander/Tactical coordinator with a crew of 12, including 7 enlisted.
In addition, I was a Maintenance Division Officer, responsible for 3 branches, and about 50-60 people.
Leadership responsibilities and relationships were different in those settings -- I would say that I was a lot closer with my aircrew than I was with my maintenance troops ...although about half of my Division were also aircrew (Inflight Techs and Ordinancemen) that I flew with frequently.

I should also mention that Navy is organized differently than Air Force. Part of my training was at an Air Force Base, so I saw how USAF operated, and the Aircrews were usually assigned to one Squadron, and Maintenance was a different squadron. A Navy squadron is fully integrated, so the aircrews have ground jobs, including leading maintenance troop., operations, administration, etc. Balancing flight and ground duties was often difficult, particularly on deployment when we were "flapping" , or conducting round the clock flight operations. Most of my Branch Officers and Chiefs were also on aircrews so it wasn't uncommon to go a few days without seeing them. I don't think Air Force has that issue, but someone else can speak to that.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

Thanks so much for thorough answers and describing your first hand experience. I’ve always wondered how pilots exert leadership WHILE flying- is it more through communications, working with the co-pilot, training others, or directing enlisted personnel? Or a mix? Thanks a lot for differentiating tasks of AF from Navy too.

> A combination of all of the above.. In crewed aircraft, its largely a mentoring process...older, senior pilots and NFO's passing on their knowledge and experience, both in dedicated training flights as well as operational flights.In addition, the senior of the TACCO and Pilot were designated the "Mission Commander", and responsible for leadership of the Crew, both in flight as well as while on detachment.

Leadership (as an aviator or any Military Officer) takes many forms. It is not just "command". In my last few months in the squadron, I frequently flew as a Mission Commander when we had LCDR's on the aircraft -- they were coming back to the squadron for 2nd tours, and there was usually a 2-3 month period before they prequalified in the aircraft. That takes some tact, as you can't "command" a senior officer even though you are the one responsible for successful mission outcome. Similarly, we usually had a senior enlisted on our crews, and they were often more more experienced than I was. Perhaps the single most rewarding accomplishment as a junior officer in the squadron is when you get to the point that both the senior officers and senior enlisted respect and look for your leadership.

 

[Hurricane12]

Thanks so much for thorough answers and describing your first hand experience. I’ve always wondered how pilots exert leadership WHILE flying- is it more through communications, working with the co-pilot, training others, or directing enlisted personnel? Or a mix? Thanks a lot for differentiating tasks of AF from Navy too.

All of the above. As a junior pilot, you are in more of a followership role and there to learn with Mom/Dad in the cockpit. As you pick up qualifications (aircraft commander, section/division lead, instructor quals) the decision making and leadership piece becomes much more important.
Your influence increases from your opinion barely mattering in the aircraft you're in, to running the bird, the section, and the objective area for bigger quals.
If you fly a crewed aircraft (like I do), that includes learning the balance between strict professionalism and a close relationship with your enlisted crew chiefs. It's a cool feeling when you get to the point where people above/below you ask your opinion for guidance and implicitly trust your judgement in/out of the cockpit. It should also be noted this isn't a quick process and takes at least 2-3 years.

Outside of the cockpit, as an aviator in the Navy/USMC you may be a division OIC for a maintenance shop or "S" shop (admin, logistics, etc) directly in charge of Sailors or Marines. Until recently I was the OIC of one of the largest shops (~50 Marines) which was an awesome and humbling experience. However, that doesn't mean that if you work outside of direct supervisory role you can act like a clown or not exert leadership over those you interact with.m

 

[CatDog99]

When it comes to queep, which branch/platforms have more for the pilots/aircrews?

Another term I had to look up today. Navy calls this "admin" or the long form, "admin bulls***."

In war on ‘queep,’ Air Force aims to give squadron commanders new weapons

Finally, the Air Force is taking aim at the bureaucratic nightmare of unnecessary training.

www.airforcetimes.com

No idea who has more, but I always assumed every Air Force fighter pilot has a personal assistant to handle their admin bulls***.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

When it comes to queep, which branch/platforms have more for the pilots/aircrews?

Another term I had to look up today. Navy calls this "admin" or the long form, "admin bulls***.

I will take a guess that there is more Admin BS in a crewed aircraft squadron than TACAIR, simply because every young Officer has to have some "ground job", and every ground job has to justify its existence. A VP squadron had about 60 plus officer, while a VF/VA probably had 20 ish, so you have to keep all those officers busy.

My first job in the VP squadron was "Software Officer"-responsible for tracking system upgrades and reporting Link -11 useage to the Wing. It was largely a make-up job, but at that stage my primary duty was getting qualified as a Nav/Comm before deployment. That job was fortunately very short lived, as the squadron sent me to Legal Officer school after a couple months.

 

[CatDog99]

@Old Navy BGO that reminds me of the made up JO job in our squadron "Bathythermograph Officer" responsible to provide monthly summaries to LCDR (aka Hinge) OpsO. I'm probably dating myself.

 

[Thunderbolt462]

I can only speak from the Air Force heavy side of things, plus I'm also pretty new to the job, but here's what I've been able to observe so far. Take it for what it's worth.

As an aircraft commander you're going to help mentor co-pilots to prepare them to upgrade to aircraft commander. You might also have enlisted aircrew ranging from folks with twenty years or more experience to fresh out of tech school. So that could mean having the humility, as an officer and a pilot, to listen to an experienced NCO who knows the aircraft tell you you're wrong about something. It could also mean having to keep an eye on a young enlisted boom operator in a job that's honestly a lot of responsibility for a young person.

When you're flying as a crew, you set the tone for the aircraft. It's up to you to make sure that the crew functions together, and if you've got passengers, that's a whole different story as well. If you rule with an iron fist, a crew member might be afraid to point out to you a dangerous situation developing. If you're too relaxed, it can compromise job performance and safety. There's a whole science the Air Force teaches you called Crew Resource Management which involves how to best leverage the human factors involved in flying a crew aircraft. I'm sure other air frames and other branches have something similar.

As the aircraft commander, you ultimately get the final say on what the plane does. If you have to break the rules or decide not to take off, you have to have the backbone to stand by your decision. You might be pressured to fly a sortie in conditions you feel are unnecessarily risky, or with an aircraft that meets the criteria to fly, but is missing a piece of equipment that could be crucial in a specific situation. It's up to you to make the call and accept the consequences. Quite honestly one of the best unexpected benefits that came from becoming a pilot was learning to stand up for what I believed in and to trust my decision making if I feel it was sound. Even if others try and tell you otherwise.

Due to the responsibility placed on enlisted aircrew and their high level of technical expertise as well as the fact it's you and two others flying around in an aluminum can for hours at a time, the relationship between officers and enlisted is much more relaxed than the non-rated side. At least for the Air Force. Still professional, but it's pretty rare to see a finance troop talking as casually to an officer as you might see some boom operators. Enlisted aircrew are going to spend more time with officers than they will with other enlisted when flying, so naturally you become closer with them while still respecting the proper boundaries.

Bottom line, you'll still have the chance to lead as a pilot, but it'll be a smaller group of individuals in far more intense and unpredictable situations.

 

[FØB Zero]

I can only speak from the Air Force heavy side of things, plus I'm also pretty new to the job, but here's what I've been able to observe so far. Take it for what it's worth.

As an aircraft commander you're going to help mentor co-pilots to prepare them to upgrade to aircraft commander. You might also have enlisted aircrew ranging from folks with twenty years or more experience to fresh out of tech school. So that could mean having the humility, as an officer and a pilot, to listen to an experienced NCO who knows the aircraft tell you you're wrong about something. It could also mean having to keep an eye on a young enlisted boom operator in a job that's honestly a lot of responsibility for a young person.

When you're flying as a crew, you set the tone for the aircraft. It's up to you to make sure that the crew functions together, and if you've got passengers, that's a whole different story as well. If you rule with an iron fist, a crew member might be afraid to point out to you a dangerous situation developing. If you're too relaxed, it can compromise job performance and safety. There's a whole science the Air Force teaches you called Crew Resource Management which involves how to best leverage the human factors involved in flying a crew aircraft. I'm sure other air frames and other branches have something similar.

As the aircraft commander, you ultimately get the final say on what the plane does. If you have to break the rules or decide not to take off, you have to have the backbone to stand by your decision. You might be pressured to fly a sortie in conditions you feel are unnecessarily risky, or with an aircraft that meets the criteria to fly, but is missing a piece of equipment that could be crucial in a specific situation. It's up to you to make the call and accept the consequences. Quite honestly one of the best unexpected benefits that came from becoming a pilot was learning to stand up for what I believed in and to trust my decision making if I feel it was sound. Even if others try and tell you otherwise.

Due to the responsibility placed on enlisted aircrew and their high level of technical expertise as well as the fact it's you and two others flying around in an aluminum can for hours at a time, the relationship between officers and enlisted is much more relaxed than the non-rated side. At least for the Air Force. Still professional, but it's pretty rare to see a finance troop talking as casually to an officer as you might see some boom operators. Enlisted aircrew are going to spend more time with officers than they will with other enlisted when flying, so naturally you become closer with them while still respecting the proper boundaries.

Bottom line, you'll still have the chance to lead as a pilot, but it'll be a smaller group of individuals in far more intense and unpredictable situations.

Such a helpful, thorough answer. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this response.

 

[Humey]

I can tell you based on my son as he is a pilot in the AF. Initally you have very little contact with enlisted. Unlike most bases, UPT bases have more officers than enlisted and since you spend 99% of your time in the pilot training section of the base, you have very little interaction with enlisted. For my son at least, he found it very weird when the enlisted saluted him especially when he was a fresh of the boat 2nd LT. While at pilot school interaction between officers of different ranks is very loose especially between those in the same class. You will find 2nd Lt. all the way to a major in a class and everyone is treated as equals. As you spend up to 12 hours a day with the same guys and gals during UPT, you dont spend a lot of time with others. As for the students and their teachers, while on base it is professional with very little to no social interaction. However, when the classes do long distance flying and stay overnight in differnent cities, the students and their teachers do socially interact like going out to dinner. My son is now learning to fly the B-52 at another base where their is definitely a lot more enlisted. I dont think he interacts with them much at all. The pilots, WSO and CSO are all technically taught under one class but are divided up into their separate categories for a lot of their education. The pilots tend to keep to themselves but will occasionaly invite people from the other groups when doing something social. I think once he graduates and starts flying professionally, his interaction with other officers and enlisted will change.

 

[OldRetSWO]

Doesn't the Air Force go by Golf Handicap instead of O and E ranks?

I hard that from my friend who heard it from his cable installer's sister in law's neighbor who used to work in the exchange at the Air Force Base.

 

[raimius]

It depends on a lot of things. I fly Huey's, and we have an about equal number if officer and enlisted aircrew. Whether your squadron trends younger or more experienced matters, as well. If you have enlisted aircrew that are mostly experienced, the dynamic is different, as some flight engineers will informally teach the new copilots things in flight. If your squadron trends younger, the distinctions of rank will be a bit more stark. It is a leadership mistake to set too informal a tone with young enlisted folks, as they will assume that is the norm, and then get in trouble out of the squadron for unintentional lack of decorum. Senior enlisted aircrew have the experience to know when to be informal and when not to....same with most Lts vs Majors/LtCols.

There is a saying that "there is no rank in the cockpit," because everyone is counted upon to do their specific job. (e.g. the new A1C Flight Engineer has to be able to tell the LtCol pilot that their plan won't work because the conditions are too high/hot for a hoist, and the LtCol has to have the faith to trust that advice...and if they don't, the A1C has the duty to tell them off in as strong a manner as is required to save the crew.) That engenders a certain dynamic that is unusual in the rest of the military...and those A1Cs also need to be mentored as to when and how to be devastatingly assertive. It is a good way to do business, but is also constantly changing because humans are involved.