Still Deciding

My HS English teacher made us memorize this quote...pretty much sums up my life.


Brutus:

There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.

Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3, 218–224


You never know where an opportunity will lead.
 
Great quote. I guess I've never read Julius Caesar. I have read a couple books named "Taken at the Flood" with various subtitles. They now have a bit of a new meaning to me.
 
Really?

Nose to the grindstone is not exclusive to the Academies. AFROTC as well as all ROTC cadets and Mids at the "Safety Net" colleges work incredibly hard to manage both the military and civilian side of college, all the while competing for the chance at an EA slot to continue on to a commission.

Nobody should ever select one path over another simply because they may feel some sense of regret, if a person's true goal is to be come an officer in the AF or any branch of the military, how you get there will carry no regret.

Notice I said "civilian college route" meaning no commitment to the military whatsoever in college. Thanks but I am fully aware ROTC exists and how hard each student works while in ROTC, I don't need a rendition of the obvious.

I didn't notice anything in his post about ROTC or OTS/OCS school... I just saw him ask about his USAFA appointment versus non-military civilian college life, therefore I responded to the question he was asking.

hoopjack13 you should not fully discount regret, that would be naive, but also do not let it be your main thought or deciding factor.
 
Notice I said "civilian college route" meaning no commitment to the military whatsoever in college. Thanks but I am fully aware ROTC exists and how hard each student works while in ROTC, I don't need a rendition of the obvious.

I didn't notice anything in his post about ROTC or OTS/OCS school... I just saw him ask about his USAFA appointment versus non-military civilian college life, therefore I responded to the question he was asking.

hoopjack13 you should not fully discount regret, that would be naive, but also do not let it be your main thought or deciding factor.

Whether your talking about ROTC or the "Civilian College Route", to make an assumption that the Civilian College is a Safety Net or Easy is naive as well. The academies do not have a monopoly on hard work and success, but I'm sure that's a rendition of the obvious.

To the OP, if you want to commission active duty in the AF given the tough time the AFROTC cadets are having right now, attending the AFA would be the best choice to achieve your goals.
 
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Zaphod said:
A little birdie came to me with a dilemma. What happens when the long-awaited letter of appointment finally shows up? For some, the answer is obvious: You hold the postman at gunpoint while your kid checks yes and hands it back to him to mail. Easy, right?

Not always.

There is an old saying (Trekies pay attention) that says, "It is often better to want than to have. It is illogical, but often true." It is true, and can be true of almost anything; a car, a boat, a house, a piece of jewelry.

Or an appointment to a Service Academy....

What I'm going to try and offer here is some advice to those sitting at their parent's table night after night, staring at their letter of appointment, but not knowing which box to check. Perhaps the parents standing by (razors poised over outstretched wrists) will find some comfort, too.

The scenario is not as uncommon as you might think. Hopefully I'll be able to offer some insight to help you with your decision.

Now, before I begin, I've noticed several new names around here lately, so if you CC veterans will kindly indulge me for a moment, I'd like to introduce myself to the new folk as well as lay the groundwork for some points I will make later.

I am a graduate of the Naval Academy Prep School (1987) and the United States Naval Academy (1991). My BS is in General Engineering. I served five years as a Surface Warfare Officer and then left the Navy, and have spent the last ten years working as a Supervisor, Engineer, Consultant, Manager, and now Director of Quality Assurance in the medical device and diagnostics industry (6.5 years in a Fortune 100 corporation). I have a Master of Business Administration (2000) and a Master of Science in Industrial Engineering (2001) from the University of Miami. I am a certified Six Sigma Black Belt.

I am also hoplessly biased toward the Service Academies in general, and USNA in particular (just in case anyone's missed it ).

In short, I've been there, done that, and still wear the T-shirts (that fit). I've seen and lived the Service Academy experience from every conceiveable angle except as a parent, and I hope to do that in about 12 years when my oldest becomes part of the class of 2021 at USNA (because Lord knows, her Daddy ain't lettin' no daughter o' his disgrace the family name by going to Woopville or Zoomieville! )

This discussion is primarily for the applicants who have not yet decided whether they want to go or not. I particularly invite the Mids and Cadets we have here to offer their viewpoints as well, since they are there NOW. Who knows? Some of THEM may find this useful, too. If so, then so much the better.

As for you parents, hold on for the ride, because here we go.....

So........ You got your appointment and you're sitting there wondering, "Holy smokes! I got in! NOW what?"

Well, delaying isn't going to help. You must decide, and you must decide soon. It is a cruel lesson in life that when opportunity knocks, you'd better damn well answer the door, or you will spend the rest of your life regretting it. A decision must be made, but which one?

USNA? USMA? Notre Dame? MIT? Harvard?

WHICH ONE?

"Maybe my parents will choose for me!" Survey says: WRONG ANSWER. This is YOUR decision to make, Junior. No one else's but YOURS. This may be the first major decision you make in your life, but YOU have to make it, and your LIFE depends on it. I'm not being dramatic. This is cold, hard, REALITY. Welcome to adulthood!

When debating whether to attend a Service Academy, do not be put off by doubts you may have because you don't seem as gungy as the others around you who have already memorized the Reef Points. Some folks live and breath Army or Navy. Others go in with a bit more reserve. Perfectly normal.

As with so many other choices in life, you must first decide where you want to end up after the decision is made. More than once I have advised folks who, say, want to be a doctor, NOT to attend a Service Academy. Why? Because the chances of getting into Med School out of a Service Academy are VERY low, and only the best and brightest get the opportunity.

So decide right now: Do you want to be a pilot, or a doctor, or a submariner, or a Green Beret, or do you want to be an OFFICER who happens to be a pilot, or a doctor, or a submariner, or a Green Beret? In other words, if you don't get your choice of Service Selection, will you still be happy, or is being the pilot more important? If the answer is the latter, then don't go, because nothing is guaranteed. If, however, you want to be an officer and a graduate more than anything else, THEN GO!

You have to realize that time changes people. When your service obligation expires, you may decide that you want to leave the military for any number of reasons. If that happens, what do you want to do? Where do you see yourself in 10, 15, 20 years? Based on THAT answer, you make your decision.

One of the most important traits sought after in Corporate America these days is LEADERSHIP. Companies are awash in people with technical degrees who can calculate the movement of an electron across the universe or across a circuit board, but can't compose a coherent sentence or head a team (ask me how I know! ). When it comes to leadership, the Service Academies have everyone else beat, hands down. I'd rather have a SA graduate on my staff than some Wharton or Harvard MBA.

When you graduate a SA, you are guaranteed five years (or more, depending upon service selection) of employment. In that job, you will be leading people and be in charge of millions of dollars of equipment in some pretty challenging environments. At 23, you will have more responsibilities than some people in Corporate America have at 35. You may not appreciate how valuable that is, but I guarantee you the people HIRING do!

The Academies will teach you self-confidence in a way no other university can. You have no idea how many times in the last 15 years I've fallen back on, "If I made it through Plebe Year, I can do this, too!" My mother dying, job pressures, getting two Master's degrees while working full-time, a divorce, turning a $35 million plant around alone, branching out alone into consulting. ALL of these challenges were made more endurable by what I learned at USNA. If I could make it there, I'll make it anywhere. (Apologies to Old Blue Eyes)

You will make friends that will be family, and who will stand by you through thick and thin. You may spend years not seeing someone, but as soon as you do it's like you were together yesterday. We take care of our own.

There is no drug in this universe (short of Rapture, and I still have my doubts), that compares to the euphoric, boundless high you feel when, after four (or five, like me) years of effort, you throw your cover into the air along with your classmates. Nothing comes close. The birth of my children didn't come close. A classmate and friend who sat next to me at my graduation was my next-door neighbor at NAPS. He was also our anchorman (last in the class). When those covers went up, we held each other and cried like babies, and we didn't care who saw it. First off, we had earned the right, secondly, a whole bunch of our classmates were doing the same thing. Calling us wimps at that moment would have gotten you mashed into paste.

So there is the "pro" side. I can go on for hours about it, but in fairness, let's look at the other side.

What if you want to be a doctor more than an officer? No problem. Being a doctor is an admirable goal. If you choose to attend Notre Dame to study medicine, then you have my repsect. If you want to be a hard-core engineer and do some real number-crunching on some great projects, and you get accepted to MIT, then by God take the opportunity! If you want to be a banker, and have an offer to Harvard, then take it and go, and never look back!

All these examples require that you want something specific that the Service Academies either cannot provide, or from which the opportunities are extremely limited. To go to a SA under those conditions would be foolish, no matter how good the Academy in question is. These schools have their purposes, and your goals have to line up with them.

Some have voiced reasons not to have selected USXA as "I'm not sure I want the regimented lifestyle" or "I'm not sure I'm cut out for the Service". Well, if that's the case, then you bloody well should never have applied.

Some are afraid they can't hack the regimen. I call BS. If you can get INTO the Academy, you can get OUT with a degree and a ring. You think the government is going to invest $250,000 on you if they think you CAN'T make it?

Some are afraid the Academy is no fun. What, do we stand at parade rest while taking showers? NO! Sure, Plebe Year is tough, but after that, USXA is not unlike a good deal of universities. You have clubs, dances, and all the rest. Sure, you can't go out every night (not good for grades, anyway), but when you take 4,500 of the nation's best and brightest, lock them together, and add a little pressure, you'd be AMAZED at just how creative and fun it can get. It's no bed of roses, but the end is definitely worth it.


I'm going to take a break now, and let you guys think about it. I am at your service to answer questions. Let me leave you with this:

1) Choose wisely. Make sure that your choice is the one that best prepares you for the future you want. I can tell you for a fact that for "general purposes", nothing beats a Service Academy. For specialties or fields not addressed by a SA, then the choice is easy: go somewhere else.

2) Choose for YOURSELF. Do not choose anything because you think it will make your parents happy, or your girlfriend proud, or any of that junk. You must be viscously selfish and dreadfully cold in this decision. This is YOUR life you're dealing with here, and no one else's.

3) Do not make decisions out of fear. Fear and doubt are normal, especially when facing Plebe Year. Remember that over a thousand people going into USXA with you this summer WILL graduate. If they can, why can't you?

4) Do not listen to your friends. Listen to your PARENTS. THEY are the ones who have spent your lifetime making you into what you are today. It is THEY who stay up late at night, worried to death that you haven't decided, or if you'll make a sound decision. TALK TO THEM. They have forgotten more about life than you currently know. What do your stupid friends know that your parents don't, and which ACTUALLY MATTERS?

5) Beware of college counselors who try and guide you to THEIR choice because of THEIR prejudices. "You want to go to NAVY? WHY?" If someone asks you that, walk away. They don't have your best interests at heart.

6) Be excited abut your choice. If you're not, you chose wrong.

Okay. I'm tired. Think about it, and DECIDE. If you need some help, I'll be here.

Good luck!

- Z
 
I think if you have to ask, perhaps a SA is not for you. DS has had this burning desire to live that life, no second thoughts. DD would NEVER have even considered the SA route. Different directions for different personalities. Have to say personally the whole "civilian college" experience is WAY over-rated. I had a good time in college, but 30 years later it does not even show up as a blip on my timeline of important life experiences! What I have heard and read about SA graduates is the bonds and relationships they develop are beyond ANYTHING experienced at a civilian college. But that experience is NOT for everyone.

Good-luck in whatever direction you go.
 
Well Blondie I wish major life choices were as easy for me and many other kids as they were for your son and daughter... I don't think attending a service academy is that black and white of a decision.

Raimius- thank you very much for posting that... a lot of valuable insight.
 
I don't think attending a service academy is that black and white of a decision.

So true. There is a reason they give you until May 1st (or whatever date it is now) to make a decision. It is fair to say you have earned the right to think things through and open up yourself to alternative viewpoints. In depth consideration of your options is how you make the best decision. From your comments and responses, it sounds as though you will make the right choice for you. Best wishes.

Raimius- thank you very much for posting that... a lot of valuable insight.

+1
 
I made an account just to respond to this thread. Hopefully I'll get some more use out of it soon.

I'm in the same boat as you, hoopjack13, except I made my decision today. I committed to the academy. Funny timing, too, since I just got back from an overnight stay at a civilian college I was considering.

The only reason I'd ever have wanted to attend a normal college is because some little instinct in me told me I'd have more fun there. You know what they say about the rigors of the academies -- and you don't usually hear the same things about places like, say, Swarthmore. That's the college I visited. It's a little liberal arts school near Philadelphia.

For the longest time, my decision was Air Force v. Swarthmore. They're polar opposites, and it's not so easy to compare apples and oranges. One gives you the structure and the discipline to fit into a military hierarchy. The other gives you the freedom to find your own way in the civilian world. Me, I was always a fan of that military structure. Plus, the little boyish part of me thinks it would be fun to crawl around in the mud at BCT.

Still, I doubted myself up until today. I'd gone through the entire application process believing that the students at civilian colleges have so much free time and leniency, which they use to party all the time. But I visited Swarthmore, and I spoke with lots of the kids there firsthand. And you know what? They're all just as stressed out and overbooked as any cadet I've met. Sure, they have fun at times, but that's not why they go to school. They go to school to work hard and to study and to make themselves into better people, just like the kids at the academies. In other words, I imagine there's gonna be rigor anywhere you go. The difference is, those non-academy kids are paying tuition. And don't have a salary. And aren't guaranteed jobs upon graduation. And, most importantly, they don't get to wear those sexy berets.

I chose Air Force because I understand now that I'm not missing out by passing up on a civilian education. The kids at any good school work just as hard as the cadets, and the cadets have as much fun as those same kids. But here's the other side of the coin -- the kids at civilian schools are definitely missing out on the fraternal culture of the military. They hang out with buddies; we hang out with brothers-in-arms. They don't get to train with parachutes in their second summer. They don't have the potential to become fighter jet pilots, or CIA cryptographers, or NASA rocket scientists -- at least, not very easily. They'd have to jump through some crazy hoops to get the same opportunities that academy graduates are given all the time. If we work hard in the academies, the world will open up for us in a way that it won't for any civilian. And that's why I chose Air Force. I hope to see you there.

Go Falcons!

Ardent Nine, my DS attended the Swarthmore RTT last week AFTER he accepted his appointment to the Air Force...it was good that he attended so he could see if he was missing anything...he came back knowing he made the right informed decision!
 
Hey man,

I am a sophomore in college in ROTC and had to turn down a slot for field training. I decided to apply after I took a tour last semester when I fell in love. It was my first time applying for any academy and when applying, I had no idea that I would be here today, now, 50 something days from actually beginning my journey at this incredible place. I took an appointee tour and I can tell you that I don't regret my decision choosing USAFA.

It is ultimately up to you though. I can tell you from my "normal college experience" that it is really not anything worth missing. A college experience is what? Going out and partying and having a good ole time? It won't matter a thing once you cross that stage and receive your bachelor's degree and HAVE TO LOOK for a job. You may have some stories to reminisce on but what ultimately will it(those experiences) have done to impact your life, not saying that colleges don't impact students a lot but you know what Im saying.

Going to an academy and having that opportunity is like none other. You will have memories that you can look back on that will impact you the rest of your life. As I've been told, you will make friends that will really last for a lifetime. In the end, you walk across receiving that degree not only finishing 4 years that have impacted you in many positive ways, not only you having positively impacting others, but also about to embark on a career serving your country and impacting many, many, many others.

However, its all up to you.
 
I never really considered doing ROTC but today a rep from Notre Dame Army ROTC called and offered me a full tuition scholarship.. Any thoughts on ROTC vs USAFA?
 
I never really considered doing ROTC but today a rep from Notre Dame Army ROTC called and offered me a full tuition scholarship.. Any thoughts on ROTC vs USAFA?


Well to keep a scholarship you need to keep your grades high. It's not easy, but it's manageable with civilian college life


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I never really considered doing ROTC but today a rep from Notre Dame Army ROTC called and offered me a full tuition scholarship.. Any thoughts on ROTC vs USAFA?

Wow...Notre Dame. The good news is that you have GREAT options. The bad news is you have great options. Your real question is "Which branch do you prefer?" Air Force has a totally different mindset than Army. Remember that college is only 4 years, your commitment is a minimum 5+ years (depending on your job). I suggest you search the forums for "Army vs. Air Force" and "ROTC vs. Academy" threads. Lots of viewpoints on those topics. The 2 links below discuss AFROTC vs. USAFA, but you'll get the idea. Smarter heads than mine can comment on Army vs. Air Force.

Like this one.

Or this one.
 
Mja is correct about GPAs for ROTC, both AFROTC and AROTC, but for different reasons,

AFROTC to be selected for summer field training, which is a requirement to commission, the. Class of 16 had an avg 3.38, 97 PFT and @1280(best sitting) SAT.
~ Not selected for SFT and they have the right to dis-enroll you. 40% of the 200s boarded were not selestced, 175 of them were scholarship cadets.

AROTC does not guarantee AD like AFROTC out of ROTC, it is an OML and that GPA is part of the equation.
~~~~ There is a thread on the ROTC forums regarding how non-selected SFT cadets are considering jumping over to AROTC. Many of the AROTC posters have said that a GPA below 3.0 will have a hard time getting AD with that type of GPA.

I. Know many candidates in HS believe that their 3.93 uwcpa with 9 APs will translate into a 3.9 at college, and for some it will, but for others at high caliber academic universities that translation does not occur. This is because HS AP class is rarely the same as college level rigor, add in the 1st semester of getting accustomed to college life, both socially and ROTC and you can understand why a 3.0 is common.

I would also second Dad's opinion about college compared to the commitment owed.
Right now you get to decide where you will live for the next four years. What you will major in. College is not 24/7 365 days a year for five years. Military life is, plus it is wherever they want you to serve and they have the last voice in your career field.
~ Can you say Minot ND as a maintenance officer for the AF or Camp Red Cloud, SKorea for the Army?
~~~~ Not everyone gets the option to choose between Hawaii and Germany. Many get places like Killeen Texas or Canon NM. Even pilots.

Just some food for thought.
 
Mja, totally agree with Dad and Pima. You are not really comparing apples to apples when looking at AFA and AROTC. You have to look at the job after college.

DS has been grappling with the same issue for over a month now, AFA or NROTC. We have been really stressing that he look at his number one choices as well as something not on his list of choices. He can only assume he would be ecstatic with getting UPT and then dropping his dream of either A10's or AC130's, but what about not getting a pilot slot at all? Conversely, in the navy his dream is a Virginia class nuclear submarine, what if that isn't even a choice?

Which uniform do you see yourself being happy in if you don't get your dream job?

Those are both amazing options, congrats! Good luck!
 
Just wanted to take a second and let everyone know that I am officially a member of the USAFA class of 2018!!!! Thank you to everyone for all of the AMAZING replies and insights! Couldn't be more excited!
 
Welcome aboard!

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Just wanted to take a second and let everyone know that I am officially a member of the USAFA class of 2018!!!! Thank you to everyone for all of the AMAZING replies and insights! Couldn't be more excited!

Congratulations! You are in for an amazing journey! I hope to see you at the MN Cadet Orientation in May, your parents at the MN USAFA Parent's Picnic in July and your family at the MN Parent's Weekend picnic at USAFA. Please feel free to contact me with any questions. Enjoy the rest of your senior year!

Jill
 
Just wanted to take a second and let everyone know that I am officially a member of the USAFA class of 2018!!!! Thank you to everyone for all of the AMAZING replies and insights! Couldn't be more excited!

Yay! Welcome! There is a facebook group (there's actually 2... choose the one with more people in it... the other one is stacked full of upper classmen scanning for people entering BCT for the class of 2018, you don't want to get caught up in that)

Here's the link:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/510961542352812/?fref=nf
 
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