Stolen Valor Act ruled Unconstitutional

[Luigi59]

"Sorta"?? I think this is the entire discussion in a nutshell. Should it require the fraud and the security issues to get him convicted, as will happen if the law is overturned or is the former Marine who exposed him, Dan Ryan, correct..

It should require fraud, (or identity theft, or perjury) as it did in this case. He is going to jail for fraud, for what he gained by the deception. He committed crimes using the claimed medals/awards. The crimes are being punished.

Write the new law to add an enhanced penalty for fraud committed by using a fake military award/medal. Just as they add enhanced penalties for "hate" crimes.

But punishing someone for lying about being a war hero is clearly an infringement of free speech, no different from lying about being a millionaire or lying about having mint-condition '53 Corvette.

 

[Mongo]

But punishing someone for lying about being a war hero is clearly an infringement of free speech, no different from lying about being a millionaire or lying about having mint-condition '53 Corvette.

I think we are continuing to repeat ourselves. But not so sure about your conclusions. The CMOH law stood for over 100 years without being challenged. Has simply adding a few other medals and badges suddenly made it unconstitutional?

However, in summary. No question, committing fraud involving tangible property is punishable. How about fraud against “good will”. Not necessarily so cut and dried. Additionally, you are correct, it is probably in violation of one’s rights of free speech. However, raimus did bring up some valid points:

Unpopular truths need to be protected, as well as ideas which may not be conclusively proven or disproven. I'm not sure straight up lies deserve the same protection.

This is a tough one, especially considering the narrow scope of the law in question. It would seem an "all-or-nothing" ruling on lies being protected can only fairly go toward "yes, they are protected" in this case. I don't think blatant lies were intended to be protected, as they serve no valuable use to civil discourse or spreading knowledge.

It is the huge gray area between definite fraud and freedom of speech of which I am not so sure and hope that there are some greater minds out there than mine who feel as I do.
While I feel that definite concrete damage is done, all my scenarios are based on the problem being at epidemic levels. I could even argue that it is a matter of national security concern. When the “face of the military” to the general public becomes a fake , and everyone in the military is a 'recruiter', it could attract the wrong sort of individual to our recruiting stations, or even worse, disinterest the right sort of person.

Recipients of the CMOH are afforded certain priviledges many of them concrete requiring documentation. However, some are not. It is proper for everyone in the military, regardless of rank, including the POTUS, to salute them. So, when the fake is sitting on a podium at a national gathering on the 4th of July in Washington, DC and the President of the United States salutes him, knowing that this signifies a salute to all awardees, the vast majority who gave their lives, has a law been broken? Or is it only morally and ethically despicable? I personally think a year in prison is not enough of a punishment.

So let’s agree to disagree.

 

[buff81]

Similar story but no sentencing yet:

http://blog.al.com/breaking/2010/04/federal_judge_calls_skyler_smi.html

In the, "What someone will do for love' dept:

http://blog.al.com/breaking/2010/04/arab_man_indicted_for_wearing.html

 

[Luigi59]

I think we are continuing to repeat ourselves. But not so sure about your conclusions. The CMOH law stood for over 100 years without being challenged. Has simply adding a few other medals and badges suddenly made it unconstitutional?

The MOH carries special, significant privileges to those heroes who are awarded that honor, and is uniquely afforded those protections. (Rightly so).

Monetary pension, free air travel (not sure about that one), automatic academy appointment if qualified, and a few others.

Also, the MOH is not sold in the PX or exchange for $1.99 like every other ribbon, it is only manufactured only by one company, and no one else can legally make it (like US currency). "Using" a MOH is penalized the same way using counterfeit money is.

I cannot see extending those same penalties to someone who claims the Joint Meritorious Service Ribbon or the Antarctic Service Medal.

So let’s agree to disagree.

Done.

 

[scoutpilot]

My real concern is that, if the law stands, I may someday go to jail for telling so many gals I bedded in my halcyon days of yore that I was an astronaut.

 

[Mongo]

My real concern is that, if the law stands, I may someday go to jail for telling so many gals I bedded in my halcyon days of yore that I was an astronaut.

Call me, I 'll defend you. Everyone knows that a Woop needs all the help he can get, both real and manufactured, in order to get laid.

Now just gotta figure out what 'halcyon' means.

 

[Luigi59]

My real concern is that, if the law stands, I may someday go to jail for telling so many gals I bedded in my halcyon days of yore that I was an astronaut.

Be glad you are not in Israel.

An Arab -- who claimed to be Israeli for the sole purpose of a sexual conquest -- is going to jail for 18 months. Everything about the encounter was consensual, except he lied about who he was.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/21/arab-guilty-rape-consensual-sex-jew

 

[scoutpilot]

Be glad you are not in Israel.

An Arab -- who claimed to be Israeli for the sole purpose of a sexual conquest -- is going to jail for 18 months. Everything about the encounter was consensual, except he lied about who he was.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/21/arab-guilty-rape-consensual-sex-jew

He also lied about being married.

 

[Gray Hog]

Everyone knows that a Woop needs all the help he can get, both real and manufactured, in order to get laid.

It is admittedly more challenging for West Pointers, because, unlike those from our sister academies, we exclude those of the same gender as ourselves from the pool of potential partners. I am not passing judgment upon those of you from lesser schools who choose to bat from both sides of the plate; I am merely pointing out that our pool is already 50% smaller simply because we don't.

 

[Mongo]

It is admittedly more challenging for West Pointers, because, unlike those from our sister academies, we exclude those of the same gender as ourselves from the pool of potential partners. I am not passing judgment upon those of you from lesser schools who choose to bat from both sides of the plate; I am merely pointing out that our pool is already 50% smaller simply because we don't.

Your posts do seem to have a history of homophobic tendencies which perhaps you should look into. And we should probably drop this before someone gets any ideas. If it suddenly became a criminal offense for servicemembers to lie in order to meet the opposite sex, that would leave only the Navy and USMC to fight our wars and, while quite capable, they are not now manned at the proper levels to do so.

 

[Pima]

Gray Hog,

Everyone knows Mongo and I are not BFF's and never will be, but I have to side with him on your last post.

Did I miss something, isn't it currently against regs IN ANY BRANCH to have a homosexual relationship?

Are you implying that the Army roots out homosexuals? Wouldn't that be against the DADT order?

REALITY is homosexual ban will be gone in the very near future, either get with it or accept the fact that it will be a personal issue for you.

For me, I am just curious how you took the sarcastic remark from the previous 2 posts* to a homosexual point.

* For Scout and Mongo...in the Almost 3 yrs here on this site, I have NEVER EVER seen a poster talk about Women as a conquest like Scout did, and another poster egg it on as bragging or digging rites.

Gray Hog may have homophobic issues, but the two of you just degraded women to a level that is vile and disgusting because you made intimacy a joke and more of the pounding on a chest to prove your sexual prowess. They showed their own chavaunistic tendencies.

Scout post 55:

I may someday go to jail for telling so many gals I bedded in my halcyon days of yore that I was an astronaut

So was the funny part that it never existed or that you bedded so many gals?

Mongo post 56:

Call me, I 'll defend you. Everyone knows that a Woop needs all the help he can get, both real and manufactured, in order to get laid.

Was the funny part you would defend him, or that you saw sex as a joke?

Mongo, you are a BGO, I feel for the parents of girls applying to the USNA under your supervision if you think this is proper remarks from an officer in an open forum. (SCOUT is an AD officer who you defended).

SCOUT, you are a Field Rep., would you high five a candidate who said that comment? Of course not! You would flag him, so remember what you demand of them you must adhere too! You are their role model.

We have 14-18 yo on this site, there is no lock on any forum, be respectful to all. SCOUT I guess you get the 1st of all 1sts...you managed to bring personal sex lives into the SA forums.

BACK ON TOPIC

 

[Mongo]

For Scout and Mongo...in the Almost 3 yrs here on this site, I have NEVER EVER seen a poster talk about Women as a conquest like Scout did, and another poster egg it on as bragging or digging rites.

Pima, I apologize. And if anyone else out there thought I was the least bit serious, I apologize to them also. Lets get back to more appropriate subjects such as the necessity of being able to drink some rot-gut liquor to be an AF fighter pilot. It's much more appropriate for the 14 yr olds.

The female conquest thing was first alluded to back on post # 25 and several times thereafter.

Gray Hog, we are going to have to start learning how to use those smiley faces.

 

[scoutpilot]

For Scout and Mongo...in the Almost 3 yrs here on this site, I have NEVER EVER seen a poster talk about Women as a conquest like Scout did, and another poster egg it on as bragging or digging rites.

Gray Hog may have homophobic issues, but the two of you just degraded women to a level that is vile and disgusting because you made intimacy a joke and more of the pounding on a chest to prove your sexual prowess. You showed your own chavaunistic tendencies.

BACK ON TOPIC

I speak only about my post.

You have some serious issues with taking a joke. I don't recall using the word "conquest" at all, and the context of the joke was clearly so ludicrous (i.e. Telling someone I'm an astronaut) that I have a hard time believing anyone with two degrees of sense took it as anything but a tongue-in-cheek dig at the idea that we should allow the govt to determine which lies are protected speech and which are not.

As for the "old boy" sentiment, you are a fantastic perpetrator of that exact mentality on this site. That blade cuts both ways, friend.

*The Editing window has expired on that post, but I don't think the moderators will hesitate to alter it if need be.

 

[scoutpilot]

Pima, I apologize. And if anyone else out there thought I was the least bit serious, I apologize to them also. Lets get back to more appropriate subjects such as the necessity of being able to drink some rot-gut liquor to be an AF fighter pilot. It's much more appropriate for the 14 yr olds.

Gray Hog, we are going to have to start learning how to use those smiley faces.

Quoted for truth. It's hard to take seriously a lecture about not treating an off-topic forum like the O Club from a poster who frequently tells stories about exploits at the O Club.

Anyhow, count me out of this fracas. Thread is done.

 

[Gray Hog]

Gray Hog,

Everyone knows Mongo and I are not BFF's and never will be, but I have to side with him on your last post.

Did I miss something, isn't it currently against regs IN ANY BRANCH to have a homosexual relationship?

Are you implying that the Army roots out homosexuals? Wouldn't that be against the DADT order?

REALITY is homosexual ban will be gone in the very near future, either get with it or accept the fact that it will be a personal issue for you.

For me, I am just curious how you took the sarcastic remark from the previous 2 posts* to a homosexual point.

Holy smokes, you are a bit touchy on the subject, aren't you? I never made any negative remark about homosexuals, did I? I merely bemoaned the relative disadvantage we poor West Pointers had a in finding a date, due to the fact that we are not as lucky as those from our sister academies in being as open-minded as they are in their acceptance of same-sex relationships. Our social life would have been far more active as male cadets, had we, like they, seen the entire student body as a potential dating pool, rather than only the 10% who happened to be female.

There was nothing negative or judgmental in what I wrote, nor any reference to regulations or laws of any sort. That extrapolation is a product of inference you made based upon your personal biases and sensitivities; it is unfounded based upon anything I wrote or implied.

 

[Mongo]

I merely bemoaned the relative disadvantage we poor West Pointers had a in finding a date, due to the fact that we are not as lucky as those from our sister academies in being as open-minded as they are in their acceptance of same-sex relationships. Our social life would have been far more active as male cadets, had we, like they, seen the entire student body as a potential dating pool, rather than only the 10% who happened to be female.

Okay, I admit it. It was funny. But there was no way I could let it slide.

 

[Gray Hog]

Gray Hog, we are going to have to start learning how to use those smiley faces.

Aparently.

Anyone who sees such exchanges as anything serious or truly rooted in any sort of real animosity is not a graduate of a SA. Those of us who are, embrace these types of jabs in the spirit of inter-service/inter-academy rivalry in which we recognize they are intended. We may engage in the toughest exchange of barbs between and amongst ourselves as grads and not one of us takes offense; it is just part of the game we all play.

Outsiders will likely never understand and, frankly, they are not invited to play. A fellow grad from your own academy is like a sibling and a grad from another academy is like a member of your extended family. I can say mean and nasty things to one of them in a battle of wits and one-upmanship, but someone else, who is not in the family, had better not say anything bad to or about a member of my family.

 

[Pima]

Aparently.

Anyone who sees such exchanges as anything serious or truly rooted in any sort of real animosity is not a graduate of a SA. Those of us who are, embrace these types of jabs in the spirit of inter-service/inter-academy rivalry in which we recognize they are intended. We may engage in the toughest exchange of barbs between and amongst ourselves as grads and not one of us takes offense; it is just part of the game we all play.

Outsiders will likely never understand and, frankly, they are not invited to play. A fellow grad from your own academy is like a sibling and a grad from another academy is like a member of your extended family. I can say mean and nasty things to one of them in a battle of wits and one-upmanship, but someone else, who is not in the family, had better not say anything bad to or about a member of my family.

So to you this is an SA only site? Those like Bullet, TPG, CC, JAM, Fencer, Aglages or myself or not allowed? Only SA grads are allowed to speak? Is that your position?

This is not baseops.net.

BTW, I was an AF wife, and honestly, I get the game you are playing, trust me PIMA is an acronym...BUT...a parent that has never had any interaction with the military is getting a different look, do you want to lose them? Do you want to have them feel that the military eats their young?

Mongo, thank you for acknowledging that the comments might be the "good old boy" system with no intention of offending others, but that your jesting was not appropriate for this site, especially since minors are involved.

 

[Gray Hog]

So to you this is an SA only site? Those like Bullet, TPG, CC, JAM, Fencer, Aglages or myself or not allowed? Only SA grads are allowed to speak? Is that your position?

I suggest that you try just reading my posts and not reading into my posts.

This forum is, of course, for everyone. What I wrote is that the trading of jibes between and among grads is a private game we play.

Because we are members of the same club--albeit different chapters--we recognize it as being in good fun, whereas outsiders do not (as has been evidenced here). As for the exclusivity of that game, I will gladly accept snipes made against me, my school, and my service from someone else who has earned membership to that same club by any means, but not outsiders who have not.

BTW, I was an AF wife, and honestly, I get the game you are playing, trust me PIMA is an acronym...BUT...a parent that has never had any interaction with the military is getting a different look, do you want to lose them? Do you want to have them feel that the military eats their young?

On that point, I will agree. Since this forum draws from the completely uninitiated, we should probably keep the jibes here limited to those, which outsiders can clearly recognize as not being mean-spirited. However, we should not get carried away with being PC and painting an overly sanitized picture of the profession of arms. We do not eat our young, but we do push and test each other regularly and some of our traditions, including this game of verbal jousting we are talking about, is part of how we do that and weed out those among us who don't have the stomach for a tough job among tough people. Seeing hints of that will keep them from getting shocked by the reality of officer life...at least among line officers in combat branches.

 

[LineInTheSand]

What Gray Hog is attempted to convey is the fact that WP guys don't have a problem getting dates because of sexuality or male-to-female ratios, but because the vast majority of the population has the sense of sight...