Not everyone wears their earned pins.
Superintendent's Pin
- Thread starter fencersmother
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Christcorp
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Fencersmother; just got done IM'ing the boy. He said he made all 3 lists. So I guess he did it. I understand the gpa. That's easy. But the scores he said for athletics and military studies seemed weird. But he should know better than me. Anyway; we're proud as ever for him. Even if we have to drag such info out of him. 
later... mike.....
later... mike.....
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Way to go, Mike!!! I am so proud of your dear son!
Christcorp
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yours too. Can't believe you and I have been chatting for more that a year already. Time does fly. But the boys are doing a great job. I wish only the best for all of them. later.... mike....
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Funny Mike, because I was just thinking that last year, I knew NOTHING about USAFA or any Service Academy. Now, I'm no expert, but I know something.
And I am proud of both my boys, but I am also so very very proud of the kids at AFA who were on the cusp academically, and have succeeded there, even if they just made the grade enough to stay off Ac-Pro. They're really working hard too and determination is half the battle.
And I am proud of both my boys, but I am also so very very proud of the kids at AFA who were on the cusp academically, and have succeeded there, even if they just made the grade enough to stay off Ac-Pro. They're really working hard too and determination is half the battle.
Christcorp
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Ain't that the truth. Yes, it is a great feeling to be proud of our kids. But a lot of people fail to realize how difficult a military academy can be. Add in an Ivy League level of education with military studies and mandatory athletics; and you find it to be a very difficult place. And for the vast majority who do stick it out and graduate; it doesn't matter if they get a 4.0 or a 2.0 gpa. They all received a great education and they ALL worked hard for it. And every student/cadet that can go the entire 4 years, graduate, and become commissioned; should be extremely proud of their accomplishments. They have done in 4 years what most kids would do in 5-6 years at a traditional college. Plus they did it with more discipline required and less personal time to do it in. My hats off to each and every cadet who is still on track to graduate and serve our great country. later... mike....
Christcorp
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It may matter as far as going to grad school or such. But I don't believe that it matters when it comes to your military career. At least in my experience, it didn't affect too many military careers. Now it might have some affect on some certain competitive career fields. I.e. They give the 3.8 gpa student preference to a particular career field over a 2.4 gpa student.
Hornetguy; question while we're on the topic of GPA. I know they show the GPA for academics; and the score for military studies; and the score for athletics. But when referring to a cadet's actual GPA (For situations that you are referring to where the GPA is important); my question is. Would those outside of the walls see (EXAMPLE): A 3.5 gpa (Combined Academics, Military, Physical/Athletics); or do they see the 3.8 gpa (Academics only). I.e. When referring to a cadet's GPA; is it including the military and athletics or just academics. Reason I ask is I was wondering if a cadet with a 3.5 (overall with a 3.8 academic gpa) be looked at the same as a cadet with a 3.4 (Overall with a 3.9 academic gpa). Never understood how the Military studies and physical/athletics portion fits in. thx... mike...
Hornetguy; question while we're on the topic of GPA. I know they show the GPA for academics; and the score for military studies; and the score for athletics. But when referring to a cadet's actual GPA (For situations that you are referring to where the GPA is important); my question is. Would those outside of the walls see (EXAMPLE): A 3.5 gpa (Combined Academics, Military, Physical/Athletics); or do they see the 3.8 gpa (Academics only). I.e. When referring to a cadet's GPA; is it including the military and athletics or just academics. Reason I ask is I was wondering if a cadet with a 3.5 (overall with a 3.8 academic gpa) be looked at the same as a cadet with a 3.4 (Overall with a 3.9 academic gpa). Never understood how the Military studies and physical/athletics portion fits in. thx... mike...
the GPA is completely for academics. MPA is for military, and PEA is for athletics. combine all of those and you get your OPA, your overall performance average. this is how they rank the entire class, based on everything.. it's weighted something like 50% GPA, 35% MPA, and 15% PEA. i could be wrong about those, but it sounds right.. academics are weighted alot more heavily
Christcorp
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Thanks HNeedle. That makes a lot more sense now. Now I would assume that the cadet who is getting ready to graduate and is applying to go to grad school or similar; they would be looking at primarily the GPA and not the MPA or PEA. Does the OPA have any significance in getting a pilot slot? Or is that primarily the GPA. I understand the importance of the MPA and PEA. Other than overall class ranking; just trying to figure out if individually they have any significance. I.e. Could a person ACE their MPA and PEA and get a 3.0 gpa; and wind up in a better position for their FUTURE than a person with a 4.0 gpa but lowest (Still passing) MPA and PEA? Or is the OPA strictly an academy thing and not as important when it comes to grad school, Pilot Slots, AFSC, etc...?
Just trying to anticipate questions current/future cadets may have being the topic is currently at hand. Plus it's a bit interesting to know for my own curiosity. Thanks... Mike....
Just trying to anticipate questions current/future cadets may have being the topic is currently at hand. Plus it's a bit interesting to know for my own curiosity. Thanks... Mike....
hornetguy
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Good points to consider Mike.
The break-down that HNeedle gave is almost right. It is 55% GPA, 35% MPA, and 10% PEA. Now do some crunching on this. In the OPA, the difference between a 2.0 and a 4.0 PEA is only 0.2 points. BUT, MOST people fall between a 2.5 and a 3.5, which is only 0.1 points. A star athlete that might be around a 3.7 (VERY rare) and a top academic that might happen to have a 2.3 will see 0.14 difference on the OPA.
The difference for a 2.0 MPA and a 4.0 MPA will be 0.7 and 1.4 in the OPA, or only 0.7 points. MPAs will mostly fall between a 2.7 and a 3.2 for 90% of people. This translates to a 0.175 point difference between a 3.2 and a 2.7. The outliers, with the new system that will affect newcomers, will be a high of maybe 3.5 and a low of 2.2 or so. The gap is very small.
Now the GPA is a huge game changer. Between a 2.0 and a 4.0 GPA, that is 1.1 and 2.2 points in the OPA or 1.1 points overall. The typical GPA does not fall in a little gap. 90% will fall between 2.1 and 3.8. This gap is therefore about 0.94 points in the OPA. 0.94 means that the effect of GPA is realistically 10 times more than the PEA and 5 times more than the MPA.
Some examples:
3.1 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 3.3 GPA --> 3.21 OPA. A typical supts pin person.
3.3 PEA, 2.6 MPA, 3.9 GPA --> 3.385 OPA. A friend of mine who is only concerned with going to med school and doesn't care about the military
2.3 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 2.2 GPA --> 2.525 OPA. Another friend of mine who is awesome at the military but struggles elsewhere.
2.4 PEA, 3.0 MPA, 3.6 GPA --> 3.27 OPA. A typical geek that isn't so athletic.
2.4 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 3.4 GPA --> 3.20 OPA. Supts pin above but not so athletic with one more GPA point. (ONLY 0.01 difference in OPA!!! 0.6 drop in PEA but 0.1 increase in GPA)
3.4 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 2.3 GPA --> 2.69 OPA. An incredible athlete and top military person but struggles academically.
2.47 PEA, 3.084 MPA, 3.8 GPA --> 3.47 OPA. Myself.
See how important the GPA is in this equation?! A high GPA can topple most high achievement anywhere else. Despite being in the bottom of my class militarily and near bottom physically (about a 2.3 PEA) as a freshman, I still was ranked about 70 overall at the time because my GPA was a 3.65. The GPA is the most important factor in your class rank.
Now, for how that works for the AFSC. February of 2 dig year our BOM (Board order of merit) will be determined. This is done by taking a person's class rank based on the OPA and changing it based on their Form 94. The Form 94 documents all probations, all jobs held, and 5 bullets that you will write and proof with your AOC that documents additional achievements (like scholarships, leadership experiences, etc.). Using this, a board of 4 or 5 colonels will secretly take everyone's Form 94s and alter their class rank from what it is. Usually, it won't change more than + or - 5 places unless a Form 94 isn't turned in or is blank (then that could drop a person to the bottom, regardless of OPA). So, a person's rank when considering their AFSC will be within probably 5 ranks of where their OPA says they are.
As a cadet, that means that the GPA is the most significant factor in getting their AFSC. While we have over 500 pilot slots so that most anyone qualified will get pilot, everything else will then be competitive, usually based on the BOM for all qualified candidates. What happens, is people input their preferences for AFSC and rank them. Then, they take everyone's top pick and rank them against each other in those fields by the BOM. So, say intel has 23 slots and 55 people put it as their top pick. People will be able to see how many they are competing against and where they fall in that list. So, the top 23 BOMs in the intel list will get intel. Everyone else will then be dropped into their second choice lists and so on for up to 6 spots non-rated and 3 rated (rated are pilot, nav, and air battle manager). So, if you are ranked in the BOM in the top 10%, most will get their top pick.
Some programs that are a bit different are CRO/STO and ENJJPT. CRO/STO has its own boards and side programs that change things up, but two equivalent people will ultimately be compared by the OPA. ENJJPT is a subset of pilot. So, of the 520 or so pilot, 200 may apply for ENJJPT. The ENJJPT boards will then meet in June and rank everyone. While they have some quotas for people from the WoB, soaring IPs, and flying team members, most everyone will be ranked by the BOM. Since they have about 30 of those slots a year, the 20 slots that aren't reserved for any groups are then decided by the BOM rank order of those qualified. The higher one's BOM, the more likely to get the slot. I know a lot on this one because this is my goal!
To give some idea of where the OPAs sit. My OPA of 3.47 puts me at 47 of 1045 people in 2010. A 2.5 is about 7-800, a 3.27 is about 80, and a 2.7 is about 550.
Now, why would it matter after USAFA and jobs? Well, when the first promotion boards for 1st LT come up, they will have all 1000 of us that will be promoted (ignoring ROTC and OTS for this consideration). But not everyone promotes at the same exact time right? It's done in monthly increments. Many will have great achievements from their 2 years that will help them promote early. What happen to the 400 or so that might be in some part of pilot training or just entered their units. Most, say 300, won't have significant achievement to set them apart. But that many can't be promoted at once. So, what will they use to decide? How about their USAFA class rank. Someone graduating in the top 10% vs the 50th percentile or the bottom quarter is likely to promote first. A couple months right? No big deal. Repeat for captain. Hum, we have 30 captains that are pretty similar, but they're academy grads, let's promote the top grads first. Then the same happens at the LtCol boards. This means that the top grads could be a couple years ahead of their fellow grads which translates to higher pay and maybe better retirement, no?
Lots of things to consider. But when it comes down to it, GPA makes a huge difference for cadets.
The break-down that HNeedle gave is almost right. It is 55% GPA, 35% MPA, and 10% PEA. Now do some crunching on this. In the OPA, the difference between a 2.0 and a 4.0 PEA is only 0.2 points. BUT, MOST people fall between a 2.5 and a 3.5, which is only 0.1 points. A star athlete that might be around a 3.7 (VERY rare) and a top academic that might happen to have a 2.3 will see 0.14 difference on the OPA.
The difference for a 2.0 MPA and a 4.0 MPA will be 0.7 and 1.4 in the OPA, or only 0.7 points. MPAs will mostly fall between a 2.7 and a 3.2 for 90% of people. This translates to a 0.175 point difference between a 3.2 and a 2.7. The outliers, with the new system that will affect newcomers, will be a high of maybe 3.5 and a low of 2.2 or so. The gap is very small.
Now the GPA is a huge game changer. Between a 2.0 and a 4.0 GPA, that is 1.1 and 2.2 points in the OPA or 1.1 points overall. The typical GPA does not fall in a little gap. 90% will fall between 2.1 and 3.8. This gap is therefore about 0.94 points in the OPA. 0.94 means that the effect of GPA is realistically 10 times more than the PEA and 5 times more than the MPA.
Some examples:
3.1 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 3.3 GPA --> 3.21 OPA. A typical supts pin person.
3.3 PEA, 2.6 MPA, 3.9 GPA --> 3.385 OPA. A friend of mine who is only concerned with going to med school and doesn't care about the military
2.3 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 2.2 GPA --> 2.525 OPA. Another friend of mine who is awesome at the military but struggles elsewhere.
2.4 PEA, 3.0 MPA, 3.6 GPA --> 3.27 OPA. A typical geek that isn't so athletic.
2.4 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 3.4 GPA --> 3.20 OPA. Supts pin above but not so athletic with one more GPA point. (ONLY 0.01 difference in OPA!!! 0.6 drop in PEA but 0.1 increase in GPA)
3.4 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 2.3 GPA --> 2.69 OPA. An incredible athlete and top military person but struggles academically.
2.47 PEA, 3.084 MPA, 3.8 GPA --> 3.47 OPA. Myself.
See how important the GPA is in this equation?! A high GPA can topple most high achievement anywhere else. Despite being in the bottom of my class militarily and near bottom physically (about a 2.3 PEA) as a freshman, I still was ranked about 70 overall at the time because my GPA was a 3.65. The GPA is the most important factor in your class rank.
Now, for how that works for the AFSC. February of 2 dig year our BOM (Board order of merit) will be determined. This is done by taking a person's class rank based on the OPA and changing it based on their Form 94. The Form 94 documents all probations, all jobs held, and 5 bullets that you will write and proof with your AOC that documents additional achievements (like scholarships, leadership experiences, etc.). Using this, a board of 4 or 5 colonels will secretly take everyone's Form 94s and alter their class rank from what it is. Usually, it won't change more than + or - 5 places unless a Form 94 isn't turned in or is blank (then that could drop a person to the bottom, regardless of OPA). So, a person's rank when considering their AFSC will be within probably 5 ranks of where their OPA says they are.
As a cadet, that means that the GPA is the most significant factor in getting their AFSC. While we have over 500 pilot slots so that most anyone qualified will get pilot, everything else will then be competitive, usually based on the BOM for all qualified candidates. What happens, is people input their preferences for AFSC and rank them. Then, they take everyone's top pick and rank them against each other in those fields by the BOM. So, say intel has 23 slots and 55 people put it as their top pick. People will be able to see how many they are competing against and where they fall in that list. So, the top 23 BOMs in the intel list will get intel. Everyone else will then be dropped into their second choice lists and so on for up to 6 spots non-rated and 3 rated (rated are pilot, nav, and air battle manager). So, if you are ranked in the BOM in the top 10%, most will get their top pick.
Some programs that are a bit different are CRO/STO and ENJJPT. CRO/STO has its own boards and side programs that change things up, but two equivalent people will ultimately be compared by the OPA. ENJJPT is a subset of pilot. So, of the 520 or so pilot, 200 may apply for ENJJPT. The ENJJPT boards will then meet in June and rank everyone. While they have some quotas for people from the WoB, soaring IPs, and flying team members, most everyone will be ranked by the BOM. Since they have about 30 of those slots a year, the 20 slots that aren't reserved for any groups are then decided by the BOM rank order of those qualified. The higher one's BOM, the more likely to get the slot. I know a lot on this one because this is my goal!
To give some idea of where the OPAs sit. My OPA of 3.47 puts me at 47 of 1045 people in 2010. A 2.5 is about 7-800, a 3.27 is about 80, and a 2.7 is about 550.
Now, why would it matter after USAFA and jobs? Well, when the first promotion boards for 1st LT come up, they will have all 1000 of us that will be promoted (ignoring ROTC and OTS for this consideration). But not everyone promotes at the same exact time right? It's done in monthly increments. Many will have great achievements from their 2 years that will help them promote early. What happen to the 400 or so that might be in some part of pilot training or just entered their units. Most, say 300, won't have significant achievement to set them apart. But that many can't be promoted at once. So, what will they use to decide? How about their USAFA class rank.
Someone graduating in the top 10% vs the 50th percentile or the bottom quarter is likely to promote first. A couple months right? No big deal. Repeat for captain. Hum, we have 30 captains that are pretty similar, but they're academy grads, let's promote the top grads first. Then the same happens at the LtCol boards. This means that the top grads could be a couple years ahead of their fellow grads which translates to higher pay and maybe better retirement, no?Lots of things to consider. But when it comes down to it, GPA makes a huge difference for cadets.
Christcorp
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Hornetguy; dude; excelsior: That was probably the BEST and most comprehensive explanation of the grading system I have ever read. While I understood and knew most of it; it was probably the best explanation I have ever seen. Excellent job.
You are also correct in the additional weight the GPA covers. And to be honest; I totally overlooked the promotion cycle between 2Lt and 1Lt. 4-5 month of waiting for a promotion is definitely some money that you don't have but could have had. Thousands of dollars. Albeit $3,000-$5,000.
I was mostly impressed with your examples. While it is easy enough to do the math and figure out the OPA; your example of the average student getting such an OPA is awesome. Great job. I liked the examples enough paste them again here below. I really wish that the mod and some volunteers could make a Sticky that included a lot FAQ/QA type information. There are so many of these questions that will come up again within the next 12 months. I've been visiting here and CC for almost 2 years. A lot of the same questions get asked over and over. Anyway; great explanation. Keep up the great work. You done did good with your grades. Later... mike.....
Some examples:
3.1 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 3.3 GPA --> 3.21 OPA. A typical supts pin person.
3.3 PEA, 2.6 MPA, 3.9 GPA --> 3.385 OPA. A friend of mine who is only concerned with going to med school and doesn't care about the military
2.3 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 2.2 GPA --> 2.525 OPA. Another friend of mine who is awesome at the military but struggles elsewhere.
2.4 PEA, 3.0 MPA, 3.6 GPA --> 3.27 OPA. A typical geek that isn't so athletic.
2.4 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 3.4 GPA --> 3.20 OPA. Supts pin above but not so athletic with one more GPA point. (ONLY 0.01 difference in OPA!!! 0.6 drop in PEA but 0.1 increase in GPA)
3.4 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 2.3 GPA --> 2.69 OPA. An incredible athlete and top military person but struggles academically.
2.47 PEA, 3.084 MPA, 3.8 GPA --> 3.47 OPA. Myself.
You are also correct in the additional weight the GPA covers. And to be honest; I totally overlooked the promotion cycle between 2Lt and 1Lt. 4-5 month of waiting for a promotion is definitely some money that you don't have but could have had. Thousands of dollars. Albeit $3,000-$5,000.
I was mostly impressed with your examples. While it is easy enough to do the math and figure out the OPA; your example of the average student getting such an OPA is awesome. Great job. I liked the examples enough paste them again here below. I really wish that the mod and some volunteers could make a Sticky that included a lot FAQ/QA type information. There are so many of these questions that will come up again within the next 12 months. I've been visiting here and CC for almost 2 years. A lot of the same questions get asked over and over. Anyway; great explanation. Keep up the great work. You done did good with your grades. Later... mike.....
Some examples:
3.1 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 3.3 GPA --> 3.21 OPA. A typical supts pin person.
3.3 PEA, 2.6 MPA, 3.9 GPA --> 3.385 OPA. A friend of mine who is only concerned with going to med school and doesn't care about the military
2.3 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 2.2 GPA --> 2.525 OPA. Another friend of mine who is awesome at the military but struggles elsewhere.
2.4 PEA, 3.0 MPA, 3.6 GPA --> 3.27 OPA. A typical geek that isn't so athletic.
2.4 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 3.4 GPA --> 3.20 OPA. Supts pin above but not so athletic with one more GPA point. (ONLY 0.01 difference in OPA!!! 0.6 drop in PEA but 0.1 increase in GPA)
3.4 PEA, 3.1 MPA, 2.3 GPA --> 2.69 OPA. An incredible athlete and top military person but struggles academically.
2.47 PEA, 3.084 MPA, 3.8 GPA --> 3.47 OPA. Myself.
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Hornetguy! WOW! Excellent. Do you mind if I copy this and send it to a couple of my favorite cadets? They probably already know it, but might keep it on hand for future, easy, clear, concise, reference!
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How is MPA measured? Are there assignments with scores? Is it cumulative over 4 years or does it start over new each year?
Thanks
Thanks
hornetguy
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Feel free, people don't usually get a good explanation on this.
MPA, now, is a combination of objective scores like inspections and CPME tests. The subjective portion is a combination of the scores your superiors, peers, and subordinates give you. Like a GPA, both MPA and PEA are cumulative.
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Now, when it comes time to choose summer programs, or other activities, these slots are given in order of OPA, correct?
This fencersmother is only interested in having her twins home at the same time next summer!
This fencersmother is only interested in having her twins home at the same time next summer!
Congrats to all cadets that just earned some "bling"! I'm not sure when I'll even see any pins since after March, 4 degs don't have to travel in their uniform AND my daughter just informed me she's NOT even coming home for Spring Break.....
Talk about the dark ages....
Talk about the dark ages....