SWO retention issues?

[USMAROTCFamily]

My DD who is a junior SWO has indicated that there seems to be an issue with retention of SWOs after the 5-year commitment and that there are big cash bonus incentives for SWOs to stay on and commit to Department Heads. Is this a new issue or has this always been the case? What is causing this? Based upon how our DD describes life on the ship, there does seem to be understaffing, and I'm not sure how much of this is COVID-related, but I suppose this could be typical. We were Army officers, so we have had a bit of a Navy learning curve.

 

[Capt MJ]

My DD who is a junior SWO has indicated that there seems to be an issue with retention of SWOs after the 5-year commitment and that there are big cash bonus incentives for SWOs to stay on and commit to Department Heads. Is this a new issue or has this always been the case? What is causing this? Based upon how our DD describes life on the ship, there does seem to be understaffing, and I'm not sure how much of this is COVID-related, but I suppose this could be typical. We were Army officers, so we have had a bit of a Navy learning curve.

Retention goes up and down in the Navy and in various communities. Retention bonuses and other force management tools have been around awhile. All normal. Navy does tend to run lean and mean.

Given your Army background, how often did you hear: “Every branch is perfectly staffed. Morale is superb in every unit. We have plenty of people to do the job right. No one is complaining.”

The manpower folks at the top have to hit that sweet spot between too many people getting out and the attrition rate that is expected and planned for to ensure statutory limits for officers at each pay grade are not exceeded. As always, there is plenty of deck plate speculation to go around.

 

[OldRetSWO]

My DD who is a junior SWO has indicated that there seems to be an issue with retention of SWOs after the 5-year commitment and that there are big cash bonus incentives for SWOs to stay on and commit to Department Heads. Is this a new issue or has this always been the case? What is causing this? Based upon how our DD describes life on the ship, there does seem to be understaffing, and I'm not sure how much of this is COVID-related, but I suppose this could be typical. We were Army officers, so we have had a bit of a Navy learning curve.

The retention and manning issues within Surface Warfare have been with us for a long time - they were there when I was a Junior Officer and back then there were no bonuses. It was bad enough that after I left Active Duty and started a civilian job, for over a year, I got calls inviting me to go back immediately to fill a seat at Department Head School - which was and is the forcing function for SWOs. They have tried a lot of things to try to help - one was to bring in more Ensigns which filled many ships with more Junior Officers than there were actual Div-O billets. While this allowed the large numbers to leave at 5 yrs while still making the Department Head numbers, it also caused a "traffic jam" on some ships when it comes to SWO qualifications as there are only so many chances to anchor, conn alongside or other key SWO experiences. Opening up the aperture to allow more Limited Duty Officers (LDOs) to come up from Enlisted ranks helped a bit in terms of retention to the Department Head Level but given their years as enlisted, they hit retirement eligibility right when SWOs are going to and from Commander as a Commander and the result is shortages at Commander and Captain. These are not new and also not going away any time soon. The pandemic might keep some additional people in place for a couple of years but I suspect that the effects will wane and we'll be back to shortages of senior SWOs within a few years.

 

[USMAROTCFamily]

Yea, we heard how great morale was always! LOL

 

[USMAROTCFamily]

Very interesting. Do subs and aviators have this same issue or does it tend to be SWOs? When it comes to the Jr. officers on the ship, I think she said there are only 2 or 3 of them who are SWO qualified at this point. They are at the point where they have to pull duty basically every other day now. Our DD is expecting her orders any day now to her next ship assignment and is looking forward to that! She said the sign-on bonus are over $100k now! They must have a lot of 5-and-dives right now!

 

[OldRetSWO]

Very interesting. Do subs and aviators have this same issue or does it tend to be SWOs? When it comes to the Jr. officers on the ship, I think she said there are only 2 or 3 of them who are SWO qualified at this point. They are at the point where they have to pull duty basically every other day now. Our DD is expecting her orders any day now to her next ship assignment and is looking forward to that! She said the sign-on bonus are over $100k now! They must have a lot of 5-and-dives right now!

Depending on where the ship is in its deployment schedule, it is not unusual to see few DivOs who are qualified. First tour DivOs are only there for a couple of years and if they report while the ship is in the shipyard or a maintenance availability, the are not able to get many of their quals accomplished. Once the ship starts operating, the opportunities are there BUT there is often a big crunch of people who need to qualify before they transfer off of the ship. Some of the key quals, most notably Officer of the Deck also requires the CO to have faith in a candidate that they can sleep while that person is in charge of keeping everyone safe while continuing the ship's mission. That can take a good deal of time and thats for each individual.
Sometimes though, the "bench" on a ship can get thin an terms of talent. When I went to my second ship, I had just under 4 yrs commissioned service and my pin was about a year old. The ship was a "Captain Command" (O6) so generally more senior but most of our department heads were LDOs or staff officers and I ended up as the 4th most senior SWO on the ship. The CO, XO, Operations Officer and then me. The skipper watched me for a couple of weeks and put me in charge of shiphandling and other SWO training. Considering that by then, I was just over 4 yrs service, I think is showed how thin we were in terms of qualifications as we had more than a dozen junior SWOs who were trying to qualify.

 

[hokiesfan]

Very interesting. Do subs and aviators have this same issue or does it tend to be SWOs? [snip] She said the sign-on bonus are over $100k now! They must have a lot of 5-and-dives right now!

Subs definitely have had issues although it may vary between fast attacks and missile subs. None of the JOs on my son's sub would stay on even with the offered bonus of well over $100k; he said every one of them left when he did, before they could be sent on another sea tour. The scary thing is that my son's sub was supposedly one of the happy boats from that base...

 

[usna1985]

You tend to hear more from those who leave than those who stay and more from those who are unhappy than those who are happy. It's easier / more common to complaint than to acknowledge that the status quo is fine. Just saying that the perspective may be skewed a bit.

There is attrition in every service. In my day, first there were bonuses for pilots and submariners. Then, there were too many officers, and JOs were given bonuses to leave the military. Incentives come and go over time, based on many, many factors. Lots of really good people stay in the military and most of them would do so without all of the incentives.

In the end, money can be a motivator but is rarely the primary reason for an officer to stay in. I don't ever recall someone saying, "I'm staying for the money." But, if you're wavering, a really good duty station plus a nice retention bonus / pay increase, certainly sweetens the pot.

 

[THParent]

So you're saying that ten bucks and Norfolk wouldn't be enough then?

 

[Capt MJ]

So you're saying that ten bucks and Norfolk wouldn't be enough then?

Be like a sponsor family alum of ours for DH bonus in subs, “I’ll see you Naval Postgrad School and raise you to a two-year program at Georgetown for a Master’s in the prestigious foreign affairs program if I can get accepted, then happily go back to sea.” She got the orders, and a bonus, which she plowed into long-term investments. I had asked some candid questions about her fitness reports, determined she was in all likelihood a “pack-plus” front runner, and told her she had leverage to ask. She was a high-performing officer they wanted to retain.

Informal references when seniors are talking about juniors and performance - there is pack-plus, pack and pack-minus. It’s not derogatory, just a rough assessment of how an officer breaks out among peers. “Packs” can sometimes be late bloomers, get traction and surge to “pack-plus.”

 

[gonavy14]

Very interesting. Do subs and aviators have this same issue or does it tend to be SWOs? When it comes to the Jr. officers on the ship, I think she said there are only 2 or 3 of them who are SWO qualified at this point. They are at the point where they have to pull duty basically every other day now. Our DD is expecting her orders any day now to her next ship assignment and is looking forward to that! She said the sign-on bonus are over $100k now! They must have a lot of 5-and-dives right now!

Aviators definitely have the same thing. It changes each year, and depends on platform, but this year there is a $175,000 bonus for signing on for a 5 year DH deal for most platforms (even with the airlines barely hiring)The Navy and Air Force have always struggled enticing pilots to stay when they could be making a lot more with a much better quality of life in the airlines.
SWO has always traditionally been the choice if someone was planning on five and diving. Aviators are pretty much locked in for 10 years, nukes have to go through nuke school, but SWOs can just start their countdown right away and bounce at 5.

 

[ORKP2017]

Aviators definitely have the same thing. It changes each year, and depends on platform, but this year there is a $175,000 bonus for signing on for a 5 year DH deal for most platforms (even with the airlines barely hiring)The Navy and Air Force have always struggled enticing pilots to stay when they could be making a lot more with a much better quality of life in the airlines.
SWO has always traditionally been the choice if someone was planning on five and diving. Aviators are pretty much locked in for 10 years, nukes have to go through nuke school, but SWOs can just start their countdown right away and bounce at 5.

Does going to Nuke School increases the years of service for Surface Nuke Officers?

 

[nuensis]

Nuclear training on its own does not incur commitment for USNA grads, only NROTC/OCS. Submarine and SWO(N) have the same standard 5 years AD, followed by 3 years IRR, 8 years total. ROTC/OCS will have AD service adjusted from their standard 4 years to 5 years.

SWO(N) carrier DIVO tours are 22 months--whether that ends up going over 5 years varies due to first tour length, schools enroute, special screening (i.e. for WTI, talent management programs, graduate education) and depends on the individual.

You can also stack additional service obligation by taking Department Head Retention/Continuation bonuses, as well as accepting PCS orders in general. Once you accept orders, your obligated service is adjusted to the end of those orders.

To actually do the "five-and-dive" as a SWO, you will have to refuse to take shore duty orders and likely extend your second tour a little bit.

 

[OldAFRet]

You tend to hear more from those who leave than those who stay and more from those who are unhappy than those who are happy. It's easier / more common to complaint than to acknowledge that the status quo is fine. Just saying that the perspective may be skewed a bit.

There is attrition in every service. In my day, first there were bonuses for pilots and submariners. Then, there were too many officers, and JOs were given bonuses to leave the military. Incentives come and go over time, based on many, many factors. Lots of really good people stay in the military and most of them would do so without all of the incentives.

In the end, money can be a motivator but is rarely the primary reason for an officer to stay in. I don't ever recall someone saying, "I'm staying for the money." But, if you're wavering, a really good duty station plus a nice retention bonus / pay increase, certainly sweetens the pot.

I think you nailed it for all services, and all ranks, but in the enlisted side, money is very often the deciding factor. Every time I reenlisted I had to question whether to stay active or, get out and double my salary, work M-F 9-5, and not have to deal with all the aggravations which come with an enlisted career.

Commissioned officers have similar bags of aggravations which come with their careers.

But, no branch asks as much from people as the Navy. It's hard to have a good family life unless you're one of those unicorns who managed to have shore billets for the majority of your career.

 

[ProudDad17]

Nuclear training on its own does not incur commitment for USNA grads, only NROTC/OCS. Submarine and SWO(N) have the same standard 5 years AD, followed by 3 years IRR, 8 years total. ROTC/OCS will have AD service adjusted from their standard 4 years to 5 years.

SWO(N) carrier DIVO tours are 22 months--whether that ends up going over 5 years varies due to first tour length, schools enroute, special screening (i.e. for WTI, talent management programs, graduate education) and depends on the individual.

You can also stack additional service obligation by taking Department Head Retention/Continuation bonuses, as well as accepting PCS orders in general. Once you accept orders, your obligated service is adjusted to the end of those orders.

To actually do the "five-and-dive" as a SWO, you will have to refuse to take shore duty orders and likely extend your second tour a little bit.

Standard NROTC service commitment is 5 years, not 4. DS went SWO(N) and just reported to his first ship. The only caveat of going this route that may extend his ADSO is that he has to serve 5 years or 28 months after completing his nuke training, whichever is longer.

 

[Impulsive]

I think that there are like 23 Officers on an Arleigh Burke DDG. Figure CO, XO, Eng, OPS, Weps, and NAV as Senior O-3 or better and you have 14 or 15 JO's competing for Quals and Time to complete their Quals. I would equate that to cause some of those JO's to not get a lot of opportunity to fully qualify in whatever specialty they want. IMHO, that is the caveat here, SWO's leave because they are not satisfied with their path forward because they didn't get enough time in what they wanted to become. There have been a lot of threads here about SWO's and Retention, and I think generally many leave after their ADSO because they are not moving forward like they would like, or they are funneled into billets they don't enjoy and because there are more SWO's at the O-2 and junior O-3 levels than the Navy needs at the O-4 and above levels (especially since the LCS's, PC's, and Mark VI's are being retired early and the fleet is shrinking a little). Those that get Post Graduate School in their chosen specialty seems to tend to stay longer, but the pyramid of advancement gets a lot of them.