Tattoos Prior to R-Day

[laxfan]

Just-A-Mom,
I must admit that I am at a loss why people want permanant markers on thier body for life. If it is hidden what is the point?
.

I'm considering getting a small tattoo in dedication of a family member who recently passed away. She was a huge part of my childhood; a woman who had an tremendous impact on my life. For me, the tattoo would be a daily reminder of the most valuable times I had with her. It would be a permanent symbol of happiness and thankfulness for our time spent together.

In 70 years from now I want to look in the mirror at that wrinkly, hardly distinguishable, symbol and remember Her. Maybe I will think I was stupid for getting it, maybe I will regret my decision, but one thing is certain: I will never forget my grandma and the wonderful period of life we lived in together.

 

[scoutpilot]

Please help me with this - I still don’t understand why having a tasteful tattoo (such as a Bible verse), which is covered when wearing shorts and a short sleeve shirt is considered unprofessional. Are female officers unprofessional for wearing makeup or earrings? If not, then what is the difference?

Also...why is it different for enlisted soldiers? I've known several NCO's who are professionals and also have visible tattoos. Why not the same standards for enlisted and officers?

To cadet candidates - I STRONGLY recommend against getting a tattoo. As you can see from these replies many people, military and civilian, will discriminate against you for having them. If you go ahead and do it anyway, better make sure they are hidden by clothing and be careful who you tell about them.

It's different for the enlisted because, well, it's just different. It's a different culture. It's a different social order. Just like an NCO who smokes will not be judged nearly as harshly for it as an officer who smokes. A young NCO can bounce back from a DUI. An officer's career would be over. It's just the way it is.

The enlisted have a well-earned "live hard and fight hard" culture with blue-collar undertones. It's part and parcel of the roughneck image of the American sergeant and his men (women, etc.). Officers are, by our nature, held to higher standards. Is it fair? Some would say no. But to paraphrase an old general, "you took the higher pay, you took the better housing, you took all the privileges, and that comes at a cost." We're held to a higher standard because that's the way our culture of the professional officer--a steward of the profession of arms--has developed.

To use a very rough analogy...a man with many lovers is called a stud. A woman with the same credentials would be called a tramp. It's one of the curious and not altogether fair double standards of social judgment in the American experiment.

 

[scoutpilot]

I'm considering getting a small tattoo in dedication of a family member who recently passed away. She was a huge part of my childhood; a woman who had an tremendous impact on my life. For me, the tattoo would be a daily reminder of the most valuable times I had with her. It would be a permanent symbol of happiness and thankfulness for our time spent together.

In 70 years from now I want to look in the mirror at that wrinkly, hardly distinguishable, symbol and remember Her. Maybe I will think I was stupid for getting it, maybe I will regret my decision, but one thing is certain: I will never forget my grandma and the wonderful period of life we lived in together.

And without that tattoo, you would surely forget a woman you loved so much?

 

[WAMom68]

It's different for the enlisted because, well, it's just different. It's a different culture. It's a different social order. Just like an NCO who smokes will not be judged nearly as harshly for it as an officer who smokes. A young NCO can bounce back from a DUI. An officer's career would be over. It's just the way it is.

The enlisted have a well-earned "live hard and fight hard" culture with blue-collar undertones. It's part and parcel of the roughneck image of the American sergeant and his men (women, etc.). Officers are, by our nature, held to higher standards. Is it fair? Some would say no. But to paraphrase an old general, "you took the higher pay, you took the better housing, you took all the privileges, and that comes at a cost." We're held to a higher standard because that's the way our culture of the professional officer--a steward of the profession of arms--has developed.

To use a very rough analogy...a man with many lovers is called a stud. A woman with the same credentials would be called a tramp. It's one of the curious and not altogether fair double standards of social judgment in the American experiment.

Thanks scoutpilot. That is what I thought the answer would be but I was hoping I was wrong. I have a hard time with some of the "attitude" I have seen from officers toward enlisted - witnessed it directed at my NCO husband back in the 80's. By the way, all of this is my opinion only and does not reflect my son's thoughts or opinions.

 

[laxfan]

And without that tattoo, you would surely forget a woman you loved so much?

Forget her? never. Take time daily to appreciate her life? probably not.

Im not entirely convinced that it is a great idea, But the point I am trying to make is this: tattoos can be symbols of something their owners hold near and dear to their heart. They don't need to be visible to others to mean something, and in this case, the fact that they are always with you only further promotes one's desire to honor that symbol with a tattoo.

 

[djfrro]

I'm sorry but as I said, my son has gotten 4 tattoo's since being at west point, and almost every friend and class mate that he has there has also gotten more than one. in the next few years there will be a lot of officer's in the army with tattoo's.

 

[scoutpilot]

I'm sorry but as I said, my son has gotten 4 tattoo's since being at west point, and almost every friend and class mate that he has there has also gotten more than one. in the next few years there will be a lot of officer's in the army with tattoo's.

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

Every now and then, the people who live and breathe (or lived and breathed) the life everyday know how things work.

 

[BigNick]

I have great respect for enlisted men and NCOs. They are the "backbone" of the Army. Enlisted men have fought with me and served with me in extremely dangerous situations.

However, in the Army there is a VAST difference between officers and enlisted. In the Navy this difference is even more pronounced. In civilian life there is a big difference between factory workers and VPs. The difference is not in the quality of the people involved but in their position in the organization and in their responsibilities.

Officers are Commisioned as officials in the government. They have much greater responsibility and are held to a higher standard. That is the way it is - everyone in the military understands this.

Young men and women who are at West Point must realize that they are entering a very conservative and traditional organization. To be successful in that organization they need to understand this and not "swim against the stream". They can be individuals and creative but there is a "code" of behavior for officers. My experience has been that those that don't adjust are either unhappy or unsuccessful or both.

If this seems really unfair, and unacceptable to you, perhaps you should reconsider your choice of schools and vocation.

 

[Mongo]

I think SecDef Gates says it all in his Address at this year's USNA graduation:

A further quality of leadership is courage: not just the physical courage of the seas, of the skies and of the trenches, but moral courage. The courage to chart a new course; the courage to do what is right and not just what is popular; the courage to stand alone; the courage to act; the courage as a military officer to “speak truth to power.”

In most academic curricula today, and in most business, government, and military training programs, there is great emphasis on team-building, on working together, on building consensus, on group dynamics. You have learned a lot about that. But, for everyone who would become a leader, the time will inevitably come when you must stand alone. When alone you must say, “This is wrong” or “I disagree with all of you and, because I have the responsibility, this is what we will do.” Don’t kid yourself – that takes real courage.

http://www.defense.gov/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=1574

"Once accepted for admission to the
academy, candidates are encouraged to
remove brands or tattoos which fall into the
prohibited categories above. Additionally,
candidates should not receive additional
tattoos or brands prior to R-Day."

If one has to have a tattoo because their friends are doing it, because it is the thing to do, because it is no longer the negative stigma that it used to be, or whatever, maybe they don't have the courage to stand up and do what WP requires, and BigNick might be correct, they are in the wrong line of work.

 

[WAMom68]

One last thought on the subject...

When all the old farts are retired from the military and the current generation of cadets and officers are in charge, I bet we will see a change in attitude about tasteful tattoos. It seems that young people are less judgmental about superficial things like that and they will bring that to the military in the future.

 

[djfrro]

I think SecDef Gates says it all in his Address at this year's USNA graduation:



http://www.defense.gov/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=1574



If one has to have a tattoo because their friends are doing it, because it is the thing to do, because it is no longer the negative stigma that it used to be, or whatever, maybe they don't have the courage to stand up and do what WP requires, and BigNick might be correct, they are in the wrong line of work.

A) I never said that he got them because his friends did, I said that he and most of his friends have them. Big difference. the fact of the matter is that I bet the majority of male cadets at West Point have tattoo's. They are all going to be officers in the Army. My son is a firstie at West Point, he has made it thru 4 years there ( counting prep) they have not been easy years, and I am extremely proud of him, tattoo's or not. Don't dare tell me that perhaps he is in the wrong profession. Get over yourself and realize that these are the young men and women who will be leaders in our military and our country.

B) West Points requirements are that no new Tattoo's are to be gotten between being accepted and reporting for R day. Tattoo's within regulations are permitted after that time, but as I said before I think it is a good Idea to wait till after plebe year.

 

[Pima]

WAMom68,

I would agree with you had I not been married to an AD member. Believe it or not, it was only in 1999 or 2000 that the new reg came out regarding tats and body piercing.

In other words the future generation of Flag officers (old farts) are working now as AD when this became a big issue in the AD world. Many are just pinning on Field grade. They still have 15-20 yrs to go before they are gone. Crap if they entered an SA in 99/00, that means they graduated in 03/04, and they are still only O3's. Way too young to be old farts, so by the time they are high enough up in power to have an impact and change it because they are more open to this idea, the incoming class for USMA will probably have kids applying to the SAs.

The fact that now they must not be seen at all, compared to 15 yrs ago when you could have them on your forearm, tells you there is a stigma in the AD world today. That is today's military.

It is a personal choice. I do believe the younger generation is less judgmental regarding these issues, but I have to say good or bad, the military does not change their stance on a dime. It lingers forever like the smell of skunk spray.

I would also say as a Mom of an AFROTC cadet (2012 class ---no tat), and a DD not ROTC (2014 -tat). The cadet has very strong views about tats re: his body and I would bet my life it is all because the DOD has the reg that they can't be visible. He sees it as a waste of time if you cannot display it. It is not he is opposed to them, as I said, his sister has one, and so does his GF (not on the lower back ---again society stigma). He is fine with people getting tats, he just thinks that why do it at all if the only person who ever sees it is you entering/exiting the shower?

 

[Mongo]

A) West Points requirements are that no new Tattoo's are to be gotten between being accepted and reporting for R day.

Is this not the OP's concern that started this thread? I stand by my statement that anyone who cannot abide by this simple regulation perhaps ought to reconsider their career. And don't even attempt to try to convince me that peer pressure has nothing to do with the sudden 'need' to express oneself via body art.

 

[Pima]

Mongo is correct if we are talking about the OP

Is it prohibited once accepted to be tattood prior to R-day? I'm aware that once in the academy, you have to agree not to get further tattoos while there, so I really want to get mine now.

That was the question and honestly, when I read the post I had moment.

As I sat at the computer, I thought are you Freaking kidding me? DodMERB, bubble wrap mean anything to you? You are willing even the slightest chance of infection for a tat?

Yeah, let's try to negotiate the fine line!

Sorry, but even now, I find it insane.

You want a tat? Do it, but at the same moment I have to ask why you are asking here? If you investigated the tat policy, you know it. No need to ask it, UNLESS, you are asking from a peer pov. Exactly what Mongo is stating when he stated

And don't even attempt to try to convince me that peer pressure has nothing to do with the sudden 'need' to express oneself via body art.

If you investigated the regs, you know the answer, WP says no new tats between appointment and R day, thus the question is why pose it?

The lines are pretty drawn here. Neither side is budging. JMPO, Officers with NO tats are no better than officers WITH tats. Just like women with pierced ears compared to non-pierced.

That being said, to ignore the fact that today's military has a stigma related to tats, is like ignoring the fact that gauges on women don't have a stigma.

This is the society for today. We can all play 20 yrs from now, but let's remember between today and 20 yrs there are a lot of promotion boards.

The OP asked, it has been answered. I have to say if you look up and down the forums, most AD or cadets will question why due to the regs that currently exist.

 

[BigNick]

Old Farts

I do not think it is necessary to call graduates and former senior senior officers "Old Farts" - not classy.
God loves the mothers and our country would be nothing without them - however I have noticed that many of the comments from the moms show a glaring lack of understanding of the real Army. Many are prone to make assumptions based on a very little information or from what their sons and daughters tell them. In many cases these fine young graduates are just starting in the military and they do not yet have much real knowledge of the military.
Believe me - new Lieutenants are real novices- I was one.
I am not suggesting that the mothers should not post or give their opinions. However, if you want to know about the REAL Army - listen to the "Old Farts". I give my advice and recommendations based on trying to help people - including my son who in the Class of 2015 - and give them the benefit of my 32 years on active duty and 8 years at West Point (4 as an instructer).

 

[scoutpilot]

I do not think it is necessary to call graduates and former senior senior officers "Old Farts" - not classy.
God loves the mothers and our country would be nothing without them - however I have noticed that many of the comments from the moms show a glaring lack of understanding of the real Army. Many are prone to make assumptions based on a very little information or from what their sons and daughters tell them. In many cases these fine young graduates are just starting in the military and they do not yet have much real knowledge of the military.
Believe me - new Lieutenants are real novices- I was one.
I am not suggesting that the mothers should not post or give their opinions. However, if you want to know about the REAL Army - listen to the "Old Farts". I give my advice and recommendations based on trying to help people - including my son who in the Class of 2015 - and give them the benefit of my 32 years on active duty and 8 years at West Point (4 as an instructer).

BigNick, I agree 100%

If self-declared experts could fly, this place would be an airport.

 

[JCraft]

I understand the stance of those in opposition of tattoos and those in favor of allowing them. I also respect the opinions of those who say that getting them is stupid/immature/etc. I have had one --that I have wanted for religious reasons-- since I was 18 (before I was appointed). I love it and I want people to ask me about it or argue with me about why I got it and so on!

However, I am a firm believer in that I will allow my performance to set an example. I know one might say it was a lousy choice to get one, but that's okay. The point is I can still make it through West Point and have a successful career in the Army with a tattoo.

If someone looks down on me with prejudice about a tattoo, that's okay as well. I can still show them that I will work harder, be smarter, and be the best that I can possibly be. I can just suck it up and work harder. Hopefully, people can see my side and get where I am coming from here

 

[WAMom68]

To the OP – the cadet candidate instructions say no tattoos before R-day so follow the rules. If you feel strongly about having a tattoo then get it later. There is nothing wrong with getting a tattoo as long as you are doing it for you and not just because it’s popular. Many people know that it is reasonable to have a tattoo for personal reasons without the need to flaunt it by having it in a location that everyone can see. I suggest you don’t ask these types of question on SAF since most people here are not open minded to anything outside of the conservative mold. Stick to stuff like “how do I break in my boots” and “should I try to test out of plebe chemistry.”

I do not think it is necessary to call graduates and former senior senior officers "Old Farts" - not classy.
God loves the mothers and our country would be nothing without them - however I have noticed that many of the comments from the moms show a glaring lack of understanding of the real Army. Many are prone to make assumptions based on a very little information or from what their sons and daughters tell them. In many cases these fine young graduates are just starting in the military and they do not yet have much real knowledge of the military.
Believe me - new Lieutenants are real novices- I was one.
I am not suggesting that the mothers should not post or give their opinions. However, if you want to know about the REAL Army - listen to the "Old Farts". I give my advice and recommendations based on trying to help people - including my son who in the Class of 2015 - and give them the benefit of my 32 years on active duty and 8 years at West Point (4 as an instructer).

As I stated before none of what I posted regarding tattoos is my son's opinions or thoughts. I haven't discussed it with him at all so don't blame a new LT for his mother's opinions. My son is fully aware he is a novice and having been raised by a former enlisted soldier would not dare to act as though he knows anything about serving in the regular Army.

I used the term "old farts" for two reasons (1) some posters here act like old farts that have never been young in their lives (2) I knew I'd get a reaction. If it isn't classy to use that term then chalk it up to an un-classy blue collar mom because that is what I am. I am a regular hard working American who does not stick my nose in the air at people who are different than me.

I have been on this forum since the beginning and was a moderator for awhile as well. For the first few years I thought this forum was great and a place that was fair to everyone who posted. Over the last couple of years it has turned into the good ole boys network, with favorites who are never censored no matter what they say. I am more than ready to move on and not waste anymore time here, so you'll be glad to know you won't have to put up with this un-classy mom anymore.

Enjoy!!

 

[Packer]

WAMom: Your perspective is healthy for the forum, whether or not eveyone is in agreement. I can see your point as well as the so called "old farts" and this discussion will help future officers make a decision. You know I am in the conservative camp but hate to see you leave over a tattoo.

 

[djfrro]

Is this not the OP's concern that started this thread? I stand by my statement that anyone who cannot abide by this simple regulation perhaps ought to reconsider their career. And don't even attempt to try to convince me that peer pressure has nothing to do with the sudden 'need' to express oneself via body art.

Peer Pressure had nothing to do with my son's desicion to get tattoo's, I personaly hate them, but as I said- He wanted to get them in high school and I said no, then he wanted them after he graduated, I asked him to wait until he was done with his plebe year and he did. I think he had plenty of time to weigh his decision, it was not a "sudden need" it was something that he waited 3 years to do.

Again the regulation is do not get any tattoo's between being accepted and R day, that answeres the question. he can get them after that as long as they are within regulations.