The weakening of Beast Barracks

Many years ago, if one were able to do 76 pushups, they could survive plebe year. It was easy. Subsequently, if one were able to order someone to do 79 pushups, they were a 'good' leader. We developed a lot of officers with great upper body strength. It was easy. With the enrollment of women, it became much more complex. The mental game became more prevalent. Getting through plebe year was more challenging. Leadership became more difficult. I think better officers, as a whole, are being developed.

Remember, every class since eighteen whatever, was the last one to have a real plebe year.
 
My Plebe Year was the Most Difficult Because We Had to...

Amen to "every class since eighteen whatever, was the last one to have a real plebe year."
 
AF Majors

From ScoutPilot: "Oh, he's been deployed. That changes EVERYTHING. Did he have a grueling trek to the coffee pot every morning? Did they throw extra weight on his SVoIP telephone handset?

Good for him. He went to Afghanistan. We're glad he came. But that doesn't change anything about the USAF's lack of physicality."

Let's not be too harsh on AF Majors. My nephew deploys every six months (then rotates back six months), has a job where he works with the Army, competes in IronMan contests, and leaves every Army officer in his dust during PT!
 
I'm guessing that every sergeant handles the nc's differently. My daughter has been highly complimentary of her sergeant. She says he's extremely generous and gives them plenty of time to eat and gave them 90 minutes to bond in barracks one night and he has even given them candy. Today we got an e-mail from the sergeant with photos of our dd attached.

Other parents are writing that their kids want to quit and that their kid's sergeants are downright mean. I guess it's in the luck of the draw. I'll see how it goes with the cadre switch but so far my girl is liking her experience. I also think the fact that she is a distance runner is helping her a great deal as well. She has maxed out all her pts (except swimming) and writes that pt is her favorite activity.

So far so good.
 
I'm guessing that every sergeant handles the nc's differently. My daughter has been highly complimentary of her sergeant. She says he's extremely generous and gives them plenty of time to eat and gave them 90 minutes to bond in barracks one night and he has even given them candy. Today we got an e-mail from the sergeant with photos of our dd attached.

Other parents are writing that their kids want to quit and that their kid's sergeants are downright mean. I guess it's in the luck of the draw. I'll see how it goes with the cadre switch but so far my girl is liking her experience. I also think the fact that she is a distance runner is helping her a great deal as well. She has maxed out all her pts (except swimming) and writes that pt is her favorite activity.

So far so good.

Once upon a time, we bonded through shared hardship and achievement. I guess group patty-cake time in the barracks will do that, too. Sounds like the Air Force mentality is creeping in...

What constitutes "downright mean"? Mean in the context of the real world? Mean in the context of a basic training environment? Or mean in the context of a bunch of kids who spent all of high school being told they were the all-singing all-dancing light of the world? Consider the source.
 
I wonder how a kinder, gentler Beast is preparing the new cadets for the academic year?

Plenty of time to eat? Treats? Maybe upperclassmen will just handle plebe duties themselves......:confused:
 
I'm guessing that every sergeant handles the nc's differently. My daughter has been highly complimentary of her sergeant. She says he's extremely generous and gives them plenty of time to eat and gave them 90 minutes to bond in barracks one night and he has even given them candy. Today we got an e-mail from the sergeant with photos of our dd attached.

Other parents are writing that their kids want to quit and that their kid's sergeants are downright mean. I guess it's in the luck of the draw. I'll see how it goes with the cadre switch but so far my girl is liking her experience. I also think the fact that she is a distance runner is helping her a great deal as well. She has maxed out all her pts (except swimming) and writes that pt is her favorite activity.

Ok, I’m back from throwing up. I’ll just assume everyone in this squad was pre selected to be Adjutant General Corps or Medical Service Corps (don’t get me wrong- great branches that contribute lots). Your kids have joined the Army. Granted, its not supposed to be like Full Metal Jacket anymore but I suppose this helps explain why my son wasn’t surprised when several cadets dropped from Air Assault school on Zero day even before they got to the obstacle course after a wee bit of real yelling, screaming and pushups from the AA cadre. My best leaders at the Academy, and the Army in general, were tough, demanding, fair and consistent. One of my squad leaders is now a Division Commander. There were tasks and standards to meet. There was no slack. I was reminded that our purpose was to manage extreme violence on behalf of our Nation and that it was often not pretty. Their job was to train us to make it so that we could keep our soldiers and ourselves alive and make it as Patton said “ Make the other SOB die for his country”. What they need is tough demanding, realistic training as well as an enculturation into the Academy. When the program at VMI, Virginia Tech, Texas A&M becomes more rigorous, you really don’t need an Academy anymore. They all produce excellent officers as well. I have also heard the comments about not using withholding food as a tool. I agree with one caveat. I was a Beast Platoon Sergeant years (and years ago). I have multiple Old Grads that work for me and I work for one (it’s a lifetime network) and they all agree. Some of your kids (not all) show up and have the manners of a farm animal, shoveling food in their moths until it is stuffed, chewing with their mouths open, taking huge portions when it has to be shared by 10, leaning all into their plates like it’s a trough. Some of them need to learn some manners and Plebe year is a great time to teach them, but I digress…
 
I wonder how a kinder, gentler Beast is preparing the new cadets for the academic year?

Plenty of time to eat? Treats? Maybe upperclassmen will just handle plebe duties themselves......:confused:

Full disclaimer . . . USNA type here and I know there are differences b/t Beast and Plebe Summer. Nonetheless, the summer at all SAs is designed to do several things. Most obviously, turn civilians into military personnel. Second, get them in shape. Third, teach time management. Fourth, promote bonding with company mates, squad mates, classmates, etc. -- however that is accomplished. And quite a few other things along the way.

There is more than one way to accomplish the above just as there is more than one way to lead.

IMOP, yelling and screaming and being "mean" is most effective in the first few days. After that, people become enured to the yelling and one actually has to LEAD. As a leader, you have to figure out how to get your people to do what they need to do, in the right way, in the alloted amount of time. There are various ways to do that and, when you're learning to lead, have to figure out what works for you as the leader and what is most effective for the people you are leading.
 
Slice of Weakness

The evidence is mounting that the name "Beast Barracks" is no longer merited.

We've come a long way from eating at attention for the entire academic year including Beast (Class of 1983 plebes were allowed after Christmas break to fall out during meals if the table comm. deemed it appropriate). Somewhere between the extremes may be the right mix. My cadet's 1st detail squad leader last summer let the NCs eat as much as they wanted with the exception of dessert - no dessert as it was a "slice of weakness".
 
The evidence is mounting that the name "Beast Barracks" is no longer merited.

We've come a long way from eating at attention for the entire academic year including Beast (Class of 1983 plebes were allowed after Christmas break to fall out during meals if the table comm. deemed it appropriate). Somewhere between the extremes may be the right mix. My cadet's 1st detail squad leader last summer let the NCs eat as much as they wanted with the exception of dessert - no dessert as it was a "slice of weakness".

Word on the street out here at Camp Buckner is that Beast cadre are not allowed to refuse New Cadets dessert in the mess hall. While our (2015's) own Beast wasn't too terrible compared to years past, the new mentality for conducting CBT will have some effects on the leader development process-- for better or for worse.
 
When I arrived in Transient this afternoon, the accountablity chart said that there were 18 former new cadets outprocessing, so I guess the 1st detail cadre found something mean to do...
 
When I arrived in Transient this afternoon, the accountablity chart said that there were 18 former new cadets outprocessing, so I guess the 1st detail cadre found something mean to do...

Wouldn't 18 count as a fairly small number?
 
Can we stop with the notion that Cadet Basic Training should like a mini-Ranger school.

Facts are

- the class before had harder Cadet Basic Training than the class after :smile:
- we don't commission new cadets to be 2LTs after Cadet Basic Training
- some new cadets will find Cadet Basic Training easy and some new cadets will find Cadet Basic training hard.
- the transformation of civilians to newly commissioned 2LT ready to attend the basic course takes 46 months, not 6 weeks. Whatever a New cadet didn't learn during the cadet basic training, there is academic year, intersessions, CFT, CTLT, cadet leadership opportunties and so one.
- Since 1802, West Point has produced good leaders and bad leaders. One thing constant at West Point is change. Things have changes a lot, but many things remained constant.
- In a way West Point is a reflection of the active duty as the leadership comes from the active duty. It's not about what we want, it's about what the official policies are. Don't like it, either get out the Army or do what you can do change.

Are West Point leadership doing something illegal, immoral, or unethical or something you don't like?
 
Wouldn't 18 count as a fairly small number?

LITS - I said that more as a joke than anything, but I suppose the point remains that for at least 18 would be members of the class of 2016, Beast or CBT was too hard.

I think the only thing we can do is wait - the coming Academic year will be revealing of how well CBT prepared the class of 2016 for cadet life. Until then, the corps has. and was (2014 :rolleyes: )
 
- the transformation of civilians to newly commissioned 2LT ready to attend the basic course takes 46 months, not 6 weeks.

Well, actually, if we go based on the shortest program for officer production (OCS), it only takes 9 weeks. A civilian college graduate can enter OCS and nine weeks later be commissioned as a 2LT.

It takes 46 months to take civilians and turn them into college graduates who are more or less ready to be 2LTs.

What happens (or should happen anyways) during CBT (as stated clearly by the mission of CBT) is a transition from civilian to soldier.
 
Well, actually, if we go based on the shortest program for officer production (OCS), it only takes 9 weeks. A civilian college graduate can enter OCS and nine weeks later be commissioned as a 2LT.

It takes 46 months to take civilians and turn them into college graduates who are more or less ready to be 2LTs.

What happens (or should happen anyways) during CBT (as stated clearly by the mission of CBT) is a transition from civilian to soldier.

If I may clarify, 46 months to do it.

I would say if we were on a condensed schedule, perhaps more yelling and hazing . . . .

Becomeing a good leader and staying has a good leader are like running a marathon, I believe.
 
The Army's Drill Sergeant of the year was just selected. Reading this AP article about the selection process is interesting and pertinent to this discussion.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/armys-drill-sergeants-teach-yell-16708781

Yeah. It makes me sick.

Read this article about how recruits going through basic at Leonard Wood back in 2001 were disappointed by the lack of rigor (with one trainee saying that it was more like summer camp than what he expected out of basic). http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,138095,00.html.

And it goes father back than that; the real softening began in the mid '80s. We started to get kids who would say things such as: 'Sergeant, in basic they taught us that you have to respect us, you can't curse at me.' The real combat arms Army world came as quite a shock to some of them (there were quite a few runners who got DFRed after the harsh reality set in).

The other day, while waiting in line at the commissary, I spoke with a staff sergeant major I noticed was wearing the drill sergeant badge on his fatigues. According to him, he got out of it and back to a troop unit because he couldn't stomach it any more. He said that cursing in absolutely forbidden, shouting is frowned upon, and that all trainees have to be addressed by their rank and last name.

Ah, the kinder, gentler, new age Army. You've got to love it.
 
AF Majors

From ScoutPilot: "Oh, he's been deployed. That changes EVERYTHING. Did he have a grueling trek to the coffee pot every morning? Did they throw extra weight on his SVoIP telephone handset?

Good for him. He went to Afghanistan. We're glad he came. But that doesn't change anything about the USAF's lack of physicality."

Let's not be too harsh on AF Majors. My nephew deploys every six months (then rotates back six months), has a job where he works with the Army, competes in IronMan contests, and leaves every Army officer in his dust during PT!

Obviously NOT a typical Wingnut. Is he a PJ?
 
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