The whole person

[time2]

My 2cents worth is as follows:

1) IF you are currently applying (or the parent/friend/etc. of somene who is)...........ASSUME that ALL aspects of the USNA application process ARE important (even if you don't understand exactly why that is). Your BGO interview, your submitted application, CFA results, MOC interview(s).....etc. Do the best you can on all of them and the rest will take care of itself.

2) For those who are not in category 1) above such as BGO's, longtime regulars, USNA graduates....etc...........make sure it is clear when we are discussing the finer points of the application process, stating an opinion or attemping to draw conclusions based on your personal experiences.

Some of the recent conversation could be misconstrued as advice to those who either are new to this forum or haven't followed this entire thread as it has moved around to several different topics.

Every BGO does NOT work exactly the same way. So to debate the 'how much does this matter?' isn't really going to help anyone currently applying.

 

[sandnnw]

'93,

The process is fascinating to say the least. I still wonder HOW my DS got into Annapolis. I tell the story 100's of times in order to encourage any prospective student to apply to USNA (and other SA/ROTCs)

I often joke about getting him a t-shirt that reads, "I am the MEAN"

Mostly, I still believe that he excels in the gift of gab. Yes, he met the recommended entry stats, except not athletic, but I often tell folks I could drop my son in the middle of room and within an hour he'd be the center of attention just from his social skills. My son is interesting, he has several stories to tell and knows how to charm. He shows no fear in conversing with anyone - a natural talent that I do not possess.

I still remember the day we had lunch with our MOC. She had 5/7 boys present and I observed how my son interacted with her vs the other boys. Amazing the difference between them in this short lunch. Each time he comes home, I see even more confidence, growth and maturity. I know that he is continually challenged and made the better for it (vs his HS class peers).

I cannot imagine the difficulty MOC have in choosing their top 10, further, how the SAs weed this list on down. You are reviewing a list of stellar folks, to distinguish between them probably comes with some angst between committee members.

I too reviewed the forums and it made me more and more pessimistic. My advice to all interested - apply, apply, apply...either way, you will learn something from it.

 

[93Sir]

'93,

The process is fascinating to say the least. I still wonder HOW my DS got into Annapolis. I tell the story 100's of times in order to encourage any prospective student to apply to USNA (and other SA/ROTCs)

I often joke about getting him a t-shirt that reads, "I am the MEAN"

Please see Private Message...thanks!

 

[Memphis9489]

Anytime a BGO/FFR/ALO interacts with a candidate, they are helping that candidate over another candidate they don't interact.

Obviously, I'm only talking about those candidates who have been assigned to the BGO. I'm not talking about candidates who have been assigned to other BGOs.

Also, I'm talking about unsolicited help. Obviously, if the candidate has a question - you answer it.

Here's a small example of what I mean: A candidate expresses to the BGO that they intend to major in Political Science. The BGO informs them that they get additional "whole person" points if they make it known to the academy that they intend to major in something technical. "For the time being, as a candidate, I recommend you tell everybody you intend to major in Mechanical Engineering. You can always change your mind later." That's gamesmanship!

 

[usna1985]

^^^^

Can't speak for others, but I don't do that. I do inform candidates that ~2/3 of mids must be technical majors and that's USNA is a technical school b/c of the technical Navy, while the USMC is generally indifferent as to major. However, I don't encourage folks to change their major in the course of our conversation or to get more "points." Don't think that's fair or right. And I've had plenty of "humanities" majors receive appointments.

 

[Pima]

That may also explain why kids go into shock on the ROTC forums when they find out to switch from tech to non tech degrees require permission and more often than not that request is denied for NROTC.

IE As a candidate most will apply for NROTC as plan B. Yet, many will have to go that route because they got the TWE. If the BGO does not caveat that statement with USNA only, don't do it for NROTC. The candidate come spring or next fall with the scholarship gets a shock of their life because they are now locked into that major or the very least still in the STEM area. They may have opted for a different school due to costs if they did not have the scholarship. Now what? Stay and drudge through because you need the money or leave a school you love for a major you wanted in the first place, but didn't place it because a BGO said a remark about the WCS, and you assumed this was also true for NROTC..

I know this is a SA forum, but as I said many will go NROTC and they need to understand under that WCS aspect by saying one thing to raise your chances, and assume it works everywhere is gaming the system and it can come back to bite them if they do not understand the risks.

I would not want, nor do I think any BGO would want posters/lurkers assuming that this is a good game plan.

Not a BGO, but wouldn't it be better to turn to them and show them the mandated curriculum every mid takes regardless of their major. If USNA is like USAFA even poli sci majors are taking engineering type classes every semester, thus say something more to place engineering because that is the type of college you are going to attend. Now if USNA was like UVA where it has a true policy sci degree than I would say place policy sci.
~ At the very least the candidate would get the big clue that the curriculum is engineering oriented and that NROTC is different. It doesn't feel like you are telling them to game the system, it feels like you have shown them why it matters on their WCS and it is their decision how to proceed with this knowledge.

 

[usna1985]

For those applying for NROTC (some applying to USNA don't apply for ROTC), I do inform them that they must select a technical major to earn a scholarship. It is a surprise to some.

I do inform them of the highly technical curriculum; however, the candidates from my schools typically have a very good understanding of the academic requirements at USNA and most have strong technical academic backgrounds in h.s.

Personally, I'm ok with someone saying that, if he/she attends USNA the current plan is to major in an Group III (humanities) major but is selecting a technical major for NROTC. It's a recognition that each accession source is different. Regardless of major at USNA, you take a technical curriculum. Also, some folks who start off thinking they will major in English may later decide they want to major in mech E.

I also know that some folks "game the system" and tell me as a BGO what they think I (and USNA) want to hear. My personal opinion is that, for USNA purposes, your desired major as stated to the BGO doesn't count for much in terms of admission. Much, much more important is whether your h.s. background demonstrates you have the interest and, critically, the aptititude for STEM courses.

 

[Memphis9489]

For those applying for NROTC (some applying to USNA don't apply for ROTC), I do inform them that they must select a technical major to earn a scholarship. It is a surprise to some.

That I didn't know about the NROTC scholarship program. They must major in something technical?

I went to the Georgia Tech NROTC FAQ page and found this:

Q: Do I have to major in some particular subject if I join the NROTC?

A: No. Any of the available majors at GT or GSU are allowable. We encourage our students to pursue some form of technical major, but that is not a requirement. Keep in mind that NSTC will favor technical majors when awarding scholarships. Those who major in non-technical subjects will have to take a few technical courses, namely calculus and physics, to prepare them for the technological environment that they will encounter in their military service. These technical courses, even for non-tech majors, will usually count toward degree requirements because all majors require some math and science course work.

But, it's not clear that they are talking only about the scholarship program. I realize that not everybody in NROTC is on a scholarship. Maybe the non-scholarship NROTC students have more latitude in their major - perhaps?

 

[kinnem]

That I didn't know about the NROTC scholarship program. They must major in something technical?

I went to the Georgia Tech NROTC FAQ page and found this:

Q: Do I have to major in some particular subject if I join the NROTC?

A: No. Any of the available majors at GT or GSU are allowable. We encourage our students to pursue some form of technical major, but that is not a requirement. Keep in mind that NSTC will favor technical majors when awarding scholarships. Those who major in non-technical subjects will have to take a few technical courses, namely calculus and physics, to prepare them for the technological environment that they will encounter in their military service. These technical courses, even for non-tech majors, will usually count toward degree requirements because all majors require some math and science course work.

But, it's not clear that they are talking only about the scholarship program. I realize that not everybody in NROTC is on a scholarship. Maybe the non-scholarship NROTC students have more latitude in their major - perhaps?

85% of NROTC Navy Option scholarship winners must be pursuing a technical degree. So while some will be pursuing non-technical degrees it isn't easy to do so. I believe the same applies to those who are not on scholarship and must seek advanced standing between their sophomore and junior years, although that's only surmise on my part.

The Marines don't care what your major is.

 

[Memphis9489]

85% of NROTC Navy Option scholarship winners must be pursuing a technical degree.

I'm sure you must be right - but a cursory examination of websites describing the NROTC scholarship program do not emphasize (or mention, at all) this requirement. And, since it has already been mentioned that many of the USNA candidates, who are also applying to NROTC programs, also do not realize this - it seems to me that it should be better advertised.

Good to know.

 

[kinnem]

I'm sure you must be right - but a cursory examination of websites describing the NROTC scholarship program do not emphasize (or mention, at all) this requirement. And, since it has already been mentioned that many of the USNA candidates, who are also applying to NROTC programs, also do not realize this - it seems to me that it should be better advertised.

Good to know.

See this:

approximately 85% of Navy Option NROTC scholarships offers will be awarded to students interested in completing a Tier 1 or Tier 2 academic major

From here: http://www.nrotc.navy.mil/scholarship_criteria.aspx

I'm not quite sure how it could be missed since it's on the official page that describes the scholarship selection criteria. Perhaps it needs to be made more obvious but I'm not convinced many applicants are unaware of this. Nevertheless, perhaps it could be made more obvious byt repeating it everywhere I suppose.

 

[NotreDameROTC]

What is a sideload scholarship?

 

[kinnem]

What is a sideload scholarship?

It's a scholarship awarded, based on performance, while one is in college. My son received such a 2.5 year scholarship during his sophomore year. It may be a NROTC only term, and one has to apply for it. It's a national board that awards the scholarships. Very different process from Army as I understand it.

 

[AROTC-dad]

It's a scholarship awarded, based on performance, while one is in college. My son received such a 2.5 year scholarship during his sophomore year. It may be a NROTC only term, and one has to apply for it. It's a national board that awards the scholarships. Very different process from Army as I understand it.

Kinnem,
Are Marine Option Sideloads handled or distributed any differently than regular NROTC?

 

[kinnem]

Kinnem,
Are Marine Option Sideloads handled or distributed any differently than regular NROTC?

I don't believe so. They both have to apply for the sideload. I'm sure boards, selection criteria, and perhaps even dates, are different. I do know that at least some years the average stats for those Navy Options awarded a scholarship exceed those for USNA admission. These are not easy to get but obviously it can be done.

 

[COmom]

I'm sure you must be right - but a cursory examination of websites describing the NROTC scholarship program do not emphasize (or mention, at all) this requirement. And, since it has already been mentioned that many of the USNA candidates, who are also applying to NROTC programs, also do not realize this - it seems to me that it should be better advertised.

Good to know.

The expected percentage of graduating STEM majors in NROTC seems to have been changed relatively recently--3 years maybe? The officer in command of the NROTC unit at RIT delivered a brief on NROTC scholarships during the 2013 summer BGO training. He said there a lot of pressure to graduate 85% STEM, so they want a freshman class that starts with an even higher percentage of declared STEM majors to account for drops, etc.

 

[mkjw]

I don't believe so. They both have to apply for the sideload. I'm sure boards, selection criteria, and perhaps even dates, are different. I do know that at least some years the average stats for those Navy Options awarded a scholarship exceed those for USNA admission. These are not easy to get but obviously it can be done.

For the Marine Option at my son's school, the sideload application was submitted through the unit along with a recommendation from the cadre. The unit would not support an application unless the student was above a certain PFT score (285 or 250, if I remember correctly) and above 3.0 GPA after the first semester. The 3 1st year students that applied last year had PFTs of 295 or 300 and GPAs 3.3 or greater. Only 1 received the sideload scholarship.

 

[thateuropalegendlad]

I was reading through the USNA website again and under the qualifications, it is required that the Candidate "Be found whole person qualified by the Admissions Board". I read through this previous post from nearly 6.5 years ago. I assume that most of this information remains true, but is anyone willing to elaborate on what it means to be whole person qualified or Board qualified?

 

[usna1985]

The Board evaluates various elements of the application: grades, class rank, standardized test scores, teacher recs, personal statement, ECAs, sports, BGO interview, special factors (i.e., needing to work to support family), etc. Based on this, the Board votes as to whether the person is or is not qualified. In some cases, they may defer a decision either to await additional information (such as 7th semester grades) or just to see how an early candidate looks once more records are reviewed.

Being qualified by the Board is one step of the process. The candidate also must be medically qualified and pass the CFA. And receive a nom. With all that in hand, the candidate is eligible to compete for an appointment. The process is a bit more complex -- see the sticky above on "What are my chances?" for additional details.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

Bottom line -- Admissions Board is not looking for someone who perfect in any one area; they must be very strong across the whole application -academics, leadership, athletics, community service. A 36 ACT or 800 SAT alone isn't going to get you into USNA .