Three Year Advance Degree Question

[Pima]

Clarkson,

Are you posing that without the scholarship your unit would fold? If so, I don't believe that is a strong enough defense to keep the 4 year program.

Out of curiosity, what is your commissioning rate? I.E.percentage of MSIs that enter and commission 4 years later? That would sway me much more. If you sat here and said Alabama commission rate is 24%, but yours is 42% than it makes sense to keep it as a recruitment tool for colleges like yours.

I personally do not see them getting rid of the 4 year scholarship, but I can see them rejigging the percentage of those that get three year to four year, with fewer four years being offered in the future.
~ Too many people believe that sequestration was only for last year, but in reality it is currently on the books for years to come. With each year it will become harder and harder to pinch pennies. ROTC is an easy way to pinch without direct impact on operations. The change of pay for CULP and the future of LDAC illustrates that they are pinching pennies out of ROTC. Two, three years from now they are going to be faced harder decisions and the 4 year scholarship might be their answer.
~ I don't know the exact number of four year scholarships awarded, but we must be honest that each four year with the cost of college is on average for private or OOS 20k a year. Now if even 200 a year are on this path you are hitting millions. That does not include the cost of operations....staff, electricity, building rental on campus, PT gear, etc.

Just saying as a taxpayer, if the defense is your school needs the four year to recruit cadets, how as a taxpayer should we believe it is a wise decision instead of using that money in other area like CULP and LDAC? Especially if they can walk free of charge after their first year

 

[Jcleppe]

Clarkson,

Are you posing that without the scholarship your unit would fold? If so, I don't believe that is a strong enough defense to keep the 4 year program.


ROTC is an easy way to pinch without direct impact on operations. The change of pay for CULP and the future of LDAC illustrates that they are pinching pennies out of ROTC.

Just saying as a taxpayer, if the defense is your school needs the four year to recruit cadets, how as a taxpayer should we believe it is a wise decision instead of using that money in other area like CULP and LDAC? Especially if they can walk free of charge after their first year

Not all schools have the luxury of being a big D1 university with a huge draw of new students. There are a lot of lesser known, less sexy if you will, schools that are excellent institutions with very good ROTC programs. The 4 and 3 year scholarships can be a tool to get applicants interested in these schools.

My son's school falls into the lesser known schools, they use the scholarships to help recruit. Their school has commissioned at least 90% into AD of those that wanted AD. They have an excellent record of commissioning and usually retain their scholarship cadets. There are exceptions but the percentage is high, some years they would lose one or two and other years they would lose none.

As far as the budget goes for AROTC and pinching pennies, your off a bit on that one. While the pay for CULP has been effected the Army is increasing the ROTC budget. LDAC will still continue but under a new name, the Army Cadet Command is adding a second summer training program that all cadets will attend. The pay for CULP may have been lowered but the push at Cadet Command is to greatly increase the number of cadets that attend CULP. All of this results in an increase in the AROTC budget, not pinching pennies.

Without using every method available for recruitment including scholarships, AROTC would become a much more centralized program with a smaller number of larger institutions. There would no longer be the wide geographical spread it has now. The Army has limited numbers of both 4 and 3 year scholarships, spreading them around to all the schools only make sense.

 

[Pima]

Not trying to make it into a war, I am just trying to illustrate how an outsider like me would question why?

We all know the scholarships are a recruitment tool.yet, very few of us understand how the amount of scholarships are awarded to each unit. Is it pure % across the board? Collage A commissions 10% of all AROTC cadets, thus they get 10% of the scholarships. Or is it College A has 10% of àll cadets and thus, they get 10% regardless of their commissioning rate, even if it is now 5% of the commissioning class. Those are two different paths. The latter, is saying that their retention rate is lower, and a poor ROI compared to the first. Such is the case for your DSs unit with 90% retention, that is a great retention rate. Would you say that if Alabama only has a 60% that money is not being wasted on those flour year scholarships?

That is where I am coming from when you discuss the four year vs three year. If it comes down to the fact that the powerhouses, such as, Alabama, which was used in this case has a much lower retention rate than a school like Clarkson or your DSs, than I am for it, but if it is the exact same retention rate, and at a lower cost, I am not sure in these current fiscal times it is worth the ROI, especially since we are handing pink slips to AD personnel

Scholarships are a recruitment tool to get the best cadets, not impo to get the cadets to attend specific colleges to fill those detachment numbers. Merit from the college impo exists to get kids to attend their college.
~ Remember I am an AFROTC spouse and Mom. AFROTC does not place school selection in the equation, so it is hard to wrap my cranium around why AROTC does this from a fiscal perspective. Their scholarships are flat out IS or any college willing to accept IS, 18k a year and anything over, you are on the hook, and the last is full tuition.

In the end, jmpo, if cadet Smith gets a three year to his dream school and a 4 year to his number 4 pick and finances are not issue, which one do you really believe they will matriculate to in the fall?
~ My guess is the dream school. If you agree than the defense of a 4 year only comes down to a simple answer. Those attending with no financial issues would have attended in the first place, scholarship or not for the first year,and those attending because of financial need are attending because of that reason.
~ Not insinuating they won't embrace attending. Just saying their motivation was based more on money.

Again, not trying to flame, just trying to look at it from a fiscal perspective, especially if rumors are correct according to Thompson and Bull that the AD numbers will decrease in the future.

 

[-Bull-]

Makes sense, years ago it was a lot worse then even those numbers.

I'd expect it to climb too if a decline continues as is talked about. Good time to be a state guard officer strength manager...

 

[Thompson]

I've heard rumblings from the cadre that in a year or so, commissioning will be about 60/40 Guard/reserves vs AD.

Do you know what the percentage was for the past few years?

Curious to see if there will actually be too many cadets to commission. Perhaps Army might take the route AF has done in the past - of releasing said cadets from any sort of military service obligation/scholarship repayment.

 

[Jcleppe]

Do you know what the percentage was for the past few years?

Curious to see if there will actually be too many cadets to commission. Perhaps Army might take the route AF has done in the past - of releasing said cadets from any sort of military service obligation/scholarship repayment.

I really doubt you will see that happen, the Reserves and National Guard are still in need of Junior Officers.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the numbers in contracted cadets decline a bit, a lot will depend on the needs for the Reserves/NG.

 

[BAMA ROTC]

The force structure.of the Army is changing. The word is that the Army plan is to have a 53% (RD) and 47% (AD) distribution in 2015. There was also a push that is directing a higher commission rate at larger schools and a leveling at smaller schools. I can assure you that our retention rate is fine.

 

[Thompson]

There was also a push that is directing a higher commission rate at larger schools and a leveling at smaller schools.

That's interesting - but it makes sense though.

I really doubt you will see that happen, the Reserves and National Guard are still in need of Junior Officers.

That's what I figured too - but the manner in which I was told, it seemed like cut completely and not shifted to the reserve world.

 

[-Bull-]

Do you know what the percentage was for the past few years?

Curious to see if there will actually be too many cadets to commission. Perhaps Army might take the route AF has done in the past - of releasing said cadets from any sort of military service obligation/scholarship repayment.

I don't, sorry.

Don't think they'll go the way of the AF. Guard/Reserve is still under strength and this will help that.

 

[Thompson]

I guess that would work out then, transitioning to a peace time Army and all.

 

[pawcoyote]

Howdy all, (Sorry I might ramble a lot going through my head)

My son is an exercise science major wanting to go into the Army Physical Therapy program. The school is saying that he will not have enough credits within the 3yr scholarship to complete his majors requirements. He is scheduled to go to LDAC next summer which will impact him taking summer classes to catch up.

My son is on a 3yr Advanced Designee, he is a Junior and just found out that he might not be going active duty but could be going National Guard. I have never heard of this. I thought if you have signed on for the ROTC scholarship you go active duty for four years and then owe four years reserve or guard time afterwards. Unless you go to a Grad school which then tacks on more time.

The PMS is saying that he might not go AD but into a National Guard role (Part Time) which does not make any sense to me.

I have told my son to talk to a Army Medical Services Recruiter to see what they say.

Any guidance is much appreciated.

 

[Jcc123]

Officers commissioned through AROTC are not guaranteed active duty, unless they graduate from an SMC. By FY16, less than half will go AD - a majority will go Guard/Reserve. However, if your son is accepted into and graduates from the Baylor DPT program, he will be required to serve 4.5 years on Active Duty.

It sounds like he needs to do a bit more research.

 

[Jcleppe]

pawcoyote,

The biggest concern that stood out in your post was regarding the lack of credits your son may have to complete his degree. Is the school telling him that he may not be able to graduate in the required four years, have the HRC folks in the ROTC Battalion been tracking this. Cadets are required to maintain a 104R form that tracks past and future classes to ensure that the cadet will graduate on time and commission, they should be counseling your son on what needs to happen. Not graduating on time can violate the terms of the ROTC Contract, this is something your son would not want to deal with.

It sounds like your son has not fully communicated to you the way accessions in AROTC works. In a nutshell it works as follows:

After LDAC (Now CLT) the cadets fill out an accession packet, this packet includes Academics, Leadership, APFT and Athletics. The process will be a lot different for your son then it has been in the past. Once the packet is complete the cadet will be placed on a National OML. The Army will decide how many Active Duty 2LTs they need for that year. They take this number from the top down, those that don't make the cutoff will be sent to either the Reserves or National Guard.

As always it's not even that simple, while it may be that in 2016 only 50% make it to Active, that does not mean it was only 50% of those that wanted AD. Every year there are around 20% from the National OML that have either requested Reserve/NG or were on a GRFD Scholarship that requires them to commission Reserve/NG. This means that it is more like 70% that get AD that wanted AD. Of course even those numbers could drop in the future.

The Special Branching system now comes into play as well. The program allows cadets that have certain majors to request Branches that go with their major, this can allow the cadet to get AD even if they fall below the AD cutoff line. To qualify they need to graduate with a required major, have a min. 2.75 GPA, list the branch as their #1 choice, and sign an ADSO for 3 extra years of service obligation. This program means that a cadet that meets these requirements will jump to AD, resulting in a cadet that had made AD being sent to the Reserve/NG. The whole process is complicated, the OML is not released anymore to the cadets so nobody will ever really know where they were on the list.

If the cadre is telling your son he may go Reserves there must be a reason. GPA, APFT score, and his PMS Evals are what they would be looking at right now. How is your son doing at this point, is there time to improve? Those are the questions he needs to face now.

The most important issue is his credits and whether he will graduate on time.