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TV Commercial

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by brovol, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. Badfinger

    Badfinger Member

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    Come on now everybody...we all know my kid was the best qualified candidate by any measure, period. And I know that because he is my kid ;)
     
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  2. armywife03

    armywife03 Member

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    Why do you think that race and gender are the only considerations? "We" distinguish institutionally for race, gender, region, state, socio economic class, sport, leadership abilities, extracurriculars, work experience, parental structure and the list goes on and on... In fact, special considerations are given for many reasons because the Powers That Be are aware that good officers are cut from many cloths.
    Some people only acknowledge and then discourage those considerations in people that look differently than they.
     
  3. par1107

    par1107 Member

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    How to silence someone: imply they are racist or sexist if they think differently than you do.
     
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  4. Sledge

    Sledge Member

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    I feel partly responsible. I enjoyed it nonetheless.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Christcorp

    Christcorp 5-Year Member

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    I don't think the thread has detoured. The thread is about why the academies / military spends money on tv advertising.

    1. Not as many people know about the academies as we'd like to believe so.
    2. Many of those do know about the academies believe they aren't for them. They're for some ultra elite student.
    3. Many who think the academies could be an option have stereotype understandings of what job opportunities there are.
    4. The academies want to increase their pool of applicants so they can diversify the class demographics while at the same time keeping keeping the very high class profile and not settling for less.
    5. Many think incorrectly that the academies advertise specifically to appoint more minorities and women.

    Out of the 12,000 or so applicants, the academy could easily find 600-800 qualified minorities and women. Definitely above the minimum standards. However, the academies like that the minimum standards are simply a formality and that 90%+ will greatly exceed these standards. They want it both ways. A class that is representative of the enlisted corp and society, while at the same time greatly exceeding the minimum standards.
     
  6. Sledge

    Sledge Member

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    The population "of society" is 50% female. Should the academies be "representative" of this? Serious question. Is it OK for the percentage of females in the officer corps to be out of line with the percentage of females in the enlisted ranks? If yes, then why not OK for male % to be out of line? Or do we only care about the "good jobs?"

    Quick googling indicates the Army enlisted ranks are 21% black, yet blacks 18-39 with a HS diploma (such an unfair threshold) are only 17% of the population. Should we reduce the number of blacks in the Army? To make room for Hispanics? Who are underrepresented?

    Gays make up, what?, 3% of the population? Yet, curiously, under Obama, they made up a significantly higher percentage of Service Secretaries, Board of Visitor presidents, SA leadership, etc. This does not seem "representative of society."

    Should warfighting capability factor into any of this? Or is "percentage matching" the end game? Near peers want to know.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 12:37 AM
  7. jag3

    jag3 Member

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    This the commercial I have been seeing for about 10 months. I first saw it after my wife and son returned from his official visit/tour last year. They both quickly pointed out that the female in the commercial had been the one that handled his tour that day. They said she did a great job.

    Nothing wrong with advertising. We do it at my work. Why? You want a bigger pool to get better choices.
     
  8. Christcorp

    Christcorp 5-Year Member

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    Well, unfortunately military men and women aren't robots. They aren't storm troopers where you simply order them to walk off a cliff to die and they do it. The men and women of the military have intellect, emotions, feelings, needs, wants, ambitions, goals, etc. Meeting the "Needs" of the military member, while it doesn't sound very "Military", is one of the main reasons our military has been so successful. And even more so without having a draft or any type of compulsory service. And having leaders with similarities to those they lead improves confidence and trust.

    It was also never stated that the "RATIO" of officers to enlisted demographics had to be exact. At the same time, having units made up of individuals completely unrepresented by whatever metric you use, is also counterproductive. And of course, with the officer corp being so much smaller than the enlisted; and many officer jobs that are "LOANER" jobs; meaning they don't really supervise or lead enlisted; e.g. pilots, missileers, etc. there will never be an exact equal representation. But there's a difference between not having an EQUAL representation and having NO REPRESENTATION. It wasn't too long ago that there were no women general officers. It wasn't too long ago where race was a barrier to certain military positions. Simply saying that the military needs to keep this mind, along with all the other attributes they want in an officer.

    And remember, only a few posters on this forum keep defining "DIVERSITY" with "RACE/GENDER". Diversity is so much more. Unfortunately, too many have a narrow perspective of what diversity is.
     
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  9. Trackgirl1999

    Trackgirl1999 Member

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    Thank you for posting the commercials(I don't watch tv). I believe these commercials are needed to attract the students where I live - Westchester County NY, because many parents here spend crazy money on SAT prep classes and college coaches hoping to get their son/daughter into a big name/expensive school just to brag about it. There are smart/athletic kids in my school that probably would have applied to a SA, if only the guidance counselors knew about it.
     
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  10. brovol

    brovol Member

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    Cristcorp, you are the
    Pot calling the kettle black when it comes to assumptions. I don't assume anything. But it is not top secret that the academies have diversity objectives, and that there are only a fraction of underrepresented applicants as compared to those who don't fall into any of the underrepresented categories. I don't assume that it is unfair, inequitable, and immoral to segregate based on classification like race or gender, providing entitlement to classes of people over others. That is my belief, and if you feel that class entitlement is a good thing, like many did, and some still do even after Civil Rights gains made in decades past, I guess we can agree to disagree.

    And cristcorp you are too good to suggest we can't have or achieve equality. Equal treatment is never too much to expect for society, but if we have intelligent people thinking that is is, then we need to fix that. Saying it doesn't need to be equal as long as it is "fair" is a cop out.

    I will ask this question, and direct it right at you cristcorp. IF, and I'll say IF for the purpose of this question, a US Service Academy have modified (lower) standards of admission for "underrepresented" applicants, would you agree that it is wrong? My suspicion is that you will respond with a lot of hyperbole without answering directly, but if you do agree that such a method would be wrong and unfair, then we can move on from there.

    Two wrongs don't make a right. Affirmative action is another word for discrimination. I have a son and a daughter. Suggesting they both can't be treated equally, along with everyone else, is unacceptable.

    In my line of work the concept of "due process" is critical. One of my functions as a judge is to ensure that everyone is treated not just fairly, but equally according to the law. That doesn't mean that everyone leaves with the same disposition, but rather that the laws and the processes will be applied the same to everyone, so each gets what he/she deserves, according to the unique merits of each case.

    It is ok to criticize these great Academies now and then cristcorp. It is unhealthy just to blindly defend them without full consideration. You are a great representative of USAFA. But examine the full question.
     
  11. armywife03

    armywife03 Member

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    Oh my...That was a burn...
    In my household, "racist", "sexist" and "hate" are strong words. We don't use them lightly. I can honestly say that say that I don't think that this thread shows racist or sexist tendencies of some of the writers but more so their ignorance of "the other". If you see yourself in my words and racist and sexist come to mind, please don't stay silent. Write and more importantly SPEAK face-to-face to "the other".
     
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  12. armywife03

    armywife03 Member

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    Brovol,
    Thank you for your work ensuring equality in your courtroom. I hope that we can agree that equal circumstances don't always land people in your courtroom, but I love that you will assure due process once anyone arrives there. Such is the case in colleges, universities and service academies. There are many, various circumstances that land these new students, cadets and mids there. One aspect of the service academies' job is to make sure that "due process"- military/academic training is equal once that they are appointed. Have a great day.
     
  13. brovol

    brovol Member

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    Armywife03, I do not think race and gender are the only factors. My problem is that they are a factor at all. Do you think that the government should distinguish people by race or gender and use that at all as a basis for consideration in terms of whether someone should get something and someone else shouldn't? George Wallace thought so in the 60's and before, as did many others. MLK disagreed, and courageously fought, not for separate consideration, but for Equal application of the law, and treatment in general. Can we all agree on that point? And if so, can we all agree that IF the academies are using race or gender as a factor all all that would as wrong as when George Wallace advocated the same thing in the 60's?
     
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  14. MN-Dad-2016

    MN-Dad-2016 5-Year Member

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    You are highly suspicious. Clearly you suppose it might be the case because of the USAFA advertisement; by (the Webster) definition that means you are assuming. All of Christcorps bullets were spot on (copied below) and are the reasons USAFA is advertising:
    For me at least, it seems obvious that the USAFA admissions are targeting underrepresented applicants to increase the standards even higher. Yet some white male posters (who have no problem with that 1970's not-so-long-ago video) see it as a waste of resources. :scratch: Nevermind the top positions in the armed forces are filled with mostly white males. Why is that? Statistically, is that white male General superior? In my Medical Doctor analogy above, are women Orthopedic Surgeons inferior students (men make up 98%)? Brovol, when you admit the answer, you can recognize there is still a ways to go before race/sex equality is closer. I could come up with a few hundred more glaring examples. The bottomline is that every controversial topics cannot be black and white (pun not intended). So people who want to be critical thinkers need to understand that "the otherside" has to have some valid points. And no matter how you fix it, the solution will always have consequences.
    For that matter, the SA standards are modified. In our son's situation (who is an "overrepresented" applicant) he got a medical waivers (a.k.a. standards modified). I wouldn't be surprised if the standards of an "overrepresented" white male stud football player (that has below average scores) ever been softened some too; Yea, I just assumed too. When people stereotype as I purposely did with my football stud example, it diminishes the people who deserve to be their more than anyone like the brainiac stud football player or star minority cadet that is kicking butt.

    At the end of the day, I'm o.k. with these modified examples so long as they admit highly qualified candidates. The system will never be fair. As I have said before, if you are a white male bubble applicant, get off the damn bubble and your problem is solved. Certainly a decade or two ago (and I am sure still today), underrepresented groups had to be be better than the establishment. So that white male bubble student who thought he got hosed, just got a taste of what others have had to experience for decades; it doesn't taste so good. And two wrongs don't make a right. But the status quo approach, assuming everything will fix itself, will never work. We got where we are (fairer) by the pendulum swinging (possibly too far) the other way. In 2017, I don't think USAFA is overreaching but rather, the proper and balanced approach.

    In short, USAFA is systematically inching their way towards a more diverse group of cadets. An to increase the talent, they are trying to get the word out and they are advertising. As they should. I'm not advocating 51% female Academy grads or 37% non-white cadets. I bet USAFA isn't either; they simply want more applicants in the 37% underrepresented group and 51% of the females.
    You are an idealist. I suspect if you walked in someone else's shoes, you would have a different conclusion/solution.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 9:19 AM
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  15. brovol

    brovol Member

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    Armywife03, no disrespect, but I have read your post three times and can't figure out your point. But I trust your kind words were genuine, so thank you. And likewise, I wish you a pleasant day as well. God bless.
     
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  16. armywife03

    armywife03 Member

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    MLK fought for African Americans to have a seat at the table. Susan B. Anthony fought for women to have a seat at the table, Gary Blasi has fought for the poor to have a seat at the table. Many american citizens were invisible and not given a chance to reach that table.

    NO ONE will enter any of these colleges/universities or service academies that does not meet their overall minimal standards. Will some be below average in some aspect? Yes. Will some be above average in others? Yes

    I am a numbers person. Again, look at the stats. Service academies and universities in general live and die by statistics. The percentage of those admitted freshman year that actually commission is just as important and probably more so than the average SAT/ACT score. These admissions officers are looking for potential quality United States military officers. I know that they will do what they can to make that happen. If they happen to see the potential in someone poor or from a rural setting or raised in a single parent household or highest socioeconomic class or lowest socioeconomic class or Black or White or Eagle Scout or Gold Award or all APs, or no APs or female, etc... I'll leave that in their capable hands.

    Circumstances, not equal in the least... Consideration cannot be equal.... Potential to lead and to serve-- EQUAL.

    BTW, anytime I see Matthew McCohaunghey in a commercial driving that car, I think of buying that car. Why? Because his accent makes me think of home. I hope that someone looks at the USAFA commercial and thinks of applying because that commercial makes them think of home.
     
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  17. brovol

    brovol Member

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    MN-Dad, I would prefer that you actually respond to what I say, rather than conclusions you draw about what I am thinking which are both incorrect and inconsistent with what I actually wrote. Just to provide prospective, and so you dont think I have sour grapes about any of the academies and the admissions process; my son applied to USMA, USAFA, and USNA, and was offered admission to all three (early appointments to USMA and USAFA, and very late to USNA).

    Be advised, so that this is crystal clear; I DO NOT ARGUE OR BELIEVE THAT "STANDARDS IN THE ADMISSIONS PROCESS SHOULD NOT BE MODIFIED". What I have said, and will repeat, is that THE STANDARDS SHOULD NOT BE MODIFIED BASED ON RACE OR GENDER CLASSIFICATION.

    It is indeed ironic that those who respond with antagonism to what I have said here do a lot of "assuming" about me, and likewise assume that the academies can not possibly reach an acceptable level of diversity among officers without "modifying" or lowering admissions protocols or standards for applicants who are in an underrepresented classification. To me that is an insulting concept, and frankly an "old school" concept that was wide spread in the south for far too long. Minorities and women are no less capable of exceeding any and all of the admissions criteria or thresholds, like ACT/SAT, class rank, athletic and leadership achievement, CFA, or anything else; not are they less capable of succeeding at the academies. It is patronizing to speak and draw conclusions as if they are. They dont need "special help", just because of their skin color or gender.

    The admissions process is mostly objective, but certainly there will be some subjective assessment of candidates. That's all good. If you want to say that I kid from a poor neighborhood, or the projects of an inner city, who has overcome challenges that most other applicants couldn't imagine should be given special consideration, and perhaps offered an appointment over another kid who has higher scores, or an otherwise more impressive application, I wont argue. That is appropriate discretion for the admissions team to utilize. those circumstances could apply for a white, black or Hispanic kid, and the admissions people should consider them regardless. But if special consideration is given to even a "privileged" kid, simply because he/she falls withing a racial or gender classification, that is institutional segregation; something which I thought we condemned years ago.

    You are right about one thing though, brother; I am an idealist. So was MLK.
     
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  18. MN-Dad-2016

    MN-Dad-2016 5-Year Member

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    Brovol. I wasn't insinuating sour grapes. Also, my mind never wandered about your sons status at the academies. If I came off as antagonist, I apologize. I was pointing out that you wonder if (to the point of assuming) that USAFA admission standards are being modified because they have to in order to get a better balance of race and gender. They could be! I don't know. And if they slightly are, I understand why. Just as I would guess they are modified for a disadvantaged white males with hardships. That too is in the spirit of diversity.

    I directed my post to you because I saw the irony. You seem to understand the value of diversity and you want to maintain the standards. Who doesn't. Well... Other posters don't see the value because we won WWII. o_O Admissions wants a top notch diverse Wing as well. In my mind, they are advertising to attract more diverse applicants. Your thread was started to share that you think it is silly to advertise. How it that a waste of $$'s when it helps accomplish your objective (diverse Wing at the highest standards)?
     
  19. madhttr

    madhttr Dad

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    "BTW, anytime I see Matthew McCohaunghey in a commercial driving that car, I think of buying that car. Why? Because his accent makes me think of home."

    When I see Matthew McConaughey in that commercial I think of a psychopath--dark and creepy. Just goes to show people respond differently to the same commercials, as if that wasn't abundantly clear by this thread. ;)
     
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  20. Dixieland

    Dixieland 5-Year Member

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    YES!!! And I'll add "unattractive"!!!....dark, creepy, and unattractive! And when they show his eye...YUCK!!!
     
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