TV Commercial

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by brovol, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. MN-Dad-2016

    MN-Dad-2016 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2012
    Messages:
    597
    Likes Received:
    324
    I'll take a stab at it.... 1st, click on this specific "real people, not actors" Chevy ad. Maybe USAFA admissions fears that a cadet would tell the truth and explain that they couldn't wait until they finished. lol
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  2. AimHighReachForTheStars!

    AimHighReachForTheStars! Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    91
    I was just curious why or how this thread has 6 pages. Now I see.
    To me commercials are there to increase awareness, increase interest and/or increase participation. Increase diversity? I say yes based on this web page.
    http://www.academyadmissions.com/admissions/advice-to-applicants/all-applicants/
    To me the commercial fell short because it focused more on the "me" aspect. It should have been, come join us at the USAFA to support and defend the constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
     
    dol-amroth, USMCGrunt and brovol like this.
  3. brovol

    brovol Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    1,493
    Nicely done aimhighreachforthestars!!
     
  4. par1107

    par1107 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    38
    Nicely done Brovol. I appreciate your tenaciously defending your increasingly non-PC stance against the obdurate and sometimes even obtuse nature of the counter posts. Yours (and some your fellow posters) might be the only counter opinions some of these young men and women have or will read in their educational careers. Lots of people drinking the Koolaid.
     
    brovol and batsirk like this.
  5. MN-Dad-2016

    MN-Dad-2016 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2012
    Messages:
    597
    Likes Received:
    324
    When you educate yourself by examining the statistics, you will understand that the other side (which you chose to attach a label call P-C) which actually has some valid dialog. As I said early on, and to date, I've never voted liberal in my life. So go ahead and pigeonhole me as "P-C". Personally, I'm anything but "P-C". But the statistical facts are ignored by many American's who are of a certain demographic. They are unable to consider why controversial topics have counter debates. The proud "non-P-C" Americans will ignore the statistics which prove otherwise and clinch to their belief that everything is damn close to fair. Fact: There IS a gender/racial pay gap in 2017 (albeit the gap is closing) and easily statistically proved. Perception gaps==Pay gaps ==power gaps. Hence, the SA's are (God forbid) advertising in the spirit of nudging to more equal playing field. Some people in the majority just don't see the logic.;) They see it as a terrible waste of time and money. Meanwhile, the people that eat, breath and crap SA admissions 24-7 for a living, vehemently disagree with the non P-C camp. After all, they stare at the statistics.

    That all said, anytime society tries to equalize the playing field (no matter how) there are negative consequences. Sometimes, the pendulum swings way to far and the real "politically correct" people of the world actually do more damage than good. So depending what team you are on, you see it the way you want to view it without looking at the stats. In your case, you believe "I'm drinking Koolaid"... So be it. But in reality, I propose that am able to digest both sides of the debate and call it more accurately than someone from either "team". To me at least, that's known as critical thinking. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  6. eljay60

    eljay60 AFROTC parent, former ANC in USAR

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    207
    Ignoring all the diversity controversy, what I find in my personal experience is since the end of the draft military service is becoming more and more familial; most Americans haven't had a family member in service since WWII. On this forum, most of the parents seem to be prior service. People believe judges still offer enlistment in lieu of jail time, or that military people live in open barracks with a shared bathroom at the end. (Only on field drill weekends at Fort Custer!). It tends to make the military too detached from the people it is defending; and that is dangerous.

    I'm certainly not advocating for a return of the draft to get diversity in our military ranks, but if a HS sophomore whose last serving family member was a great great grand uncle who died at the Battle of the Bulge googles USAFA and applies, the commercial has done its job.
     
    AROTC-dad and USAFA10s like this.
  7. brovol

    brovol Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    1,493
    The problem with basing everything on statistics is that there is much to be read between the lines. Equal pay in the military, just like equal pay in the civilian world, should not mean that everyone gets paid the same. Unfortunately, too many people think like socialist now, and wish to disregard things like work performance, education, the importance or desirability of the job, and other factors, in favor of saying a person who has job "A" gets this much money, or everyone should be entitled to equal pay scale.

    Equal opportunity, and equal treatment under the law is what we should achieve. Race, gender, or other group characteristics should never be a part of the equation. Discrimination based on such characteristics needs to be eliminated altogether.

    I don't know what a liberal or conservative is anymore, because both are incredibly inconsistent and contradictory with their "beliefs". I believe in following the Constitution, and individual liberty. Limited government, and free enterprise.

    There has been far too much ugliness in our country's brief history with horrible racism, sexism and discrimination in so many other ways, and too many lessons learned the hard way for us to even need to have this discussion. People should be treated, and decisions should be made, in all elements of society, based on merit alone. Worthiness should never be assessed factoring race or gender. To do so at any level at all is a contradiction by anyone who advocates there is a reason why it should be a factor. Let's get beyond this as a country.
     
  8. par1107

    par1107 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    38
    Let's do some critical thinking here. As a guy from your background should be aware, most of the statistics you reference do not consider stratification within the different demographics, i.e, not all white males are the same. You have to consider the statistics that are not being kept or at least not nearly as readily accessible. For instance, lower middle class to poor white males constitute a significant portion of the population-they just won an election-but we can only guess at the percentage of academy admissions their demographic constitutes relative to their population because the academies do not bother to keep or do not readily publish those statistics. What is commonly mistaken for racism or sexism in this group "by many American's {sic} of a certain demographic" is really resentment because poor and lower middle class white males look around and see the few proverbial crumbs off the rich man's table being shunted away from them because of imaginary advantages they do not have or blame laid at their feet they had no control over, both assumed because of their skin color. I agree that the academies seem to do a better job of considering these factors than regular universities: they should. Not only is this taxpayer money we are talking about, but unlike upper middle class or wealthy Americans, the academies are the only shot at the quality of education a lot of lower middle class Americans could ever afford. However, to think that the academies do not engage in PC quotas that do not benefit poor/lower middle class white males just like any other university is to totally ignore the statistics they are putting out. I agree with you that perception eventually equals power and even if the academies are truly not engaging in these quotas, even a cursory reading of these forums reveals that is the perception. Meanwhile your (and other) answer to these disparities, or at least perceptions of disparities, is to tell the poor and lower middle class white males to "suck it up," while your answer to the disparities in other groups seems to be special consideration.
    Have to go to work, not ignoring any subsequent posts.
     
    Maplerock and MN-Dad-2016 like this.
  9. MN-Dad-2016

    MN-Dad-2016 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2012
    Messages:
    597
    Likes Received:
    324
    Of course, people who work harder/smarter should get paid more (and they do). But when you stare at the statistics, the numbers still show that in 2017 , there is a 24% pay inequality based off of gender and gender alone. There can be two options: Women on average are not as talented (not working as hard or as smart as men or consistently have less education) that warrants a 24% delta. OR, there is still an inequity. [​IMG] In other words, the rulemakers are internally biased and are behaving so that on average, there is a disparity.

    See https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffka...ith-the-biggest-gender-pay-gaps/#20c33ff451d4 .
    "Healthcare and social assistance had the fourth highest gap, even though women held 80% of the jobs in this industry, illustrating that even female-dominated sectors can have a gender pay gap." No one is suggesting that every women is automatically going to make 24% less than their male counterpart. But when you plug-and-chug the numbers, to me at least, it shows that a systemic problem exists. Yes. I am selfishly upset at those statistics. Because I don't want my wife or daughter to make thousands less per year (or hundreds of thousands less over their lifetime) because they are female. Cut, paste, and repeat for certain ethnicities.

    As a white male, people are occasionally comfortable to speaking candidly about women and other ethnicities. Derogatory remarks to various degrees are alive and well in America and at a much higher percentage than people would ever want to admit. Setting that aside, biases/perceptions are not exclusive to white males. Women may round-up men (as an example) unbenounced to them because of the stereotype and programmed perception alone. Black police have a bias against black suspects too (or more) as supported by the statistics http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/26/black-suspects-more-likely-to-be-shot-by-black-cop/ . As a society, it's been programmed into all of us. You cannot shake the inequality in a generation or two. I think it is impossible.

    The bottom line is if a perception is perpetuated long enough, it can become self fulfilling. Erasing that internal perceptions (no matter how hard a person tries) isn't easy and it will take generations to combat. I will admit I'm the farthest for perfect. I have biases. All too often succumb to pre-programmed stereotypes. But as a society, we have come a long way fairly fast and there is a long way to go. But nothing will be fixed if people refuse to recognize their perceptions create inequalities. It's embedded in all of us.

    Back to the topic at hand. Along comes an advertisement that markets to underrepresented groups and is also used to gain overall visibility. Why is this USAFA advertising a bad thing again?:scratch:
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    hokiesfan likes this.
  10. MN-Dad-2016

    MN-Dad-2016 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2012
    Messages:
    597
    Likes Received:
    324
    You are a critical thinker. :)

    I agree. Lower middle class white males (been there, done that) have a set of their own problems and battles. All I would add is that if you change their skin color, they have another barrier to overcome. Outliers (and thankfully I became one) could suggest to suck it up, and work harder and smarter. But statistically speaking, it doesn't happen all that often. If I understand correctly, the SA's look for "diversity" which includes 1st generation to go to college, etc, etc. I know other colleges that do the same. I'm perfectly o.k. with that approach as I typed earlier.

    But your last post (as I read it) is in contrast to the one earlier. If I am reading between the lines, you wanted to make sure I understood a "white male" isn't an automatic trump card (no pun intended). We agree! But I will add, some of the biggest racist and sexist people I have ever met in my life, statistically came out of the strata that worked my way out of. All too often (and to Brovol's valid point), they p_ssed away their opportunity. So they are where they are for a reason. What is neat about the SA's is they are full of motivated students from all walks of life. None of them wasted their opportunities. And more often than not, most applicants came from more ideal family situations (upper middle class). My point was, in those situations like my son, he was dealt all Aces. I've met a whole lot of cadets that were also dealt all Aces. The cycle then continues.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    hokiesfan likes this.
  11. brovol

    brovol Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    1,493
    There are a number of factors which might speak to the differences in income between men and women, and for sure gender bias is one of them, but the reasons include other things, like the fact that statistically women don't maintain their career as long as men, and the list goes on.

    To be biased is not a bad thing all by itself. I am biased in the restaurants I go to, the food I eat, I prefer my children over all others, and in general my life experiences give me certain impressions of things which shape the decisions I make personally. Everyone has the right to even have personal biases or discriminatory views, even if most decent people would thing that make the person "bad". Freedom and liberty.

    The problem is when there are government endorsed institutional discrimination, or unequal application of the law, based on race, religion, gender, etc... rules need to be applied uniformly.
     
  12. MN-Dad-2016

    MN-Dad-2016 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2012
    Messages:
    597
    Likes Received:
    324
    Indeed there are other reasons. Like how attractive a boss thinks a female employee is or if they participate with flirting (i.e. Bill O'reilly). Or maybe an employer fears hiring someone during childbearing years. Or how about emotional politics playing into decision (men showing anger in the workplace which can be deemed as "competitiveness" while women are called b_tches). I can go on, but I won't. Sure, of course some pay differences will be the result in average longer work days for men (depending on the industry). But that doesn't explain away the majority of the difference. Even so, why are so many in academia (department chairs) or CEO's are male dominated. Why are the bulk of generals white males. Left on its own account, nothing will change.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    USAFA10s likes this.
  13. brovol

    brovol Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    1,493
    You are right about those other factors, and for sure the pregnancy issue is relevant. The number of white male generals though is a red herring. The goal should be to promote the most deserving and worthy to the highest ranks, not to promote a certain number of people from each category. If the most capable, deserving and worthy are all black females, then they should be the ones on top. But if they are white males, then that shouldn't matter either. If you have an issue because white males have been promoted to General, when there were more deserving and worthy female or minority candidates, then let's fix that problem, and promote the people most deserving. But do that tell me we need to put people in spots because of there color or gender alone.
     
  14. MN-Dad-2016

    MN-Dad-2016 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2012
    Messages:
    597
    Likes Received:
    324
    No one should debate your idealist viewpoint. Unless of course they are a skinhead.

    Statistically speaking and to regenerate an earlier point, the chances that 98% of all orthopedic surgeons happen to be male SHOULD smell suspicious to you. Now, I suppose there would be some people who will actually think that JUST MAYBE women have no desire to be an Orthopedic or that female doctors are incredibly weak. I propose what is happening is analogous to the 1970's era at USAFA. Back in the 60s and 70's, it was nearly all white. To me at least, it is obvious that other ethnicities didn't feel like they belonged at USAFA. Back then, why should they? So on my orthopedic example, women don't feel comfortable in that role because it is dominated by males. They may not want to stand out or get bypassed for promotions because they are not in the club. Instead of guessing, I googled opinions. I found:
    "Subtle attitudes continue to discourage women from fulfilling careers in orthopedics. Per unpublished data from Dr. Charles Day’s study, “The Perceptions of Orthopaedic Surgery Among Medical Students,” both male and female Harvard medical students cited the “jock/ frat culture” as the greatest detractor from choosing an orthopedic surgical residency. Dr. Day’s research of “Orthopaedic Residents’ Perceptions of Gender Diversity in Orthopaedic Surgery,” See http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mary-i-oconnor/orthopedic-surgery-women_b_1726145.html

    This happens in the sciences too. A couple of decades ago, women going into math and science careers were rare. Guess what, there have been a plethora of grants to encourage women to enter the sciences. There have been marketing campaigns as well. The end result is that it is working. So in fact, they are fixing it slowly. One of which is changing the perception via advertising.



    It's ALSO a reason why USAFA is advertising. They what to help break the stereotype so that more ______________ (fill in the blank) will apply.

    You can remain a purist and think, "we have plenty of great orthopedic doctors, male scientists, and white male USAFA cadets. Leave well enough alone." That might be your position and assume standards are dropped. In my view, those 30 year old opinions are poisonous for allowing others to prosper. So as a father who wants his daughter to achieve all she can, I applaud the means that have been used so far to even the playing field. Yet more is needed. One of those ways is to change the perception known as advertising. So while you think it is a waste of effort and time, I cannot think of a better way. I'm happy to pay for it. In fact, the next donation call I get, I'm going to ask to put my funds specifically in that bucket.

    The horse has been beaten. I'm done. Plus, I get the feeling all of the statistics in the world won't change your mind.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  15. brovol

    brovol Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    1,493
    MN-dad, if you think you need to convince me that sexism and racism has existed, and will continue, you haven't been reading my posts. You do not have a higher sensitivity to sexism or racism than I do. The way I think on these issues is not idealism. Because the culture in America over the last 20 years or so has shifted more entitlist does not mean that systematic awards of something to a certain class of people is the way to correct the wrongs in the world.

    Correcting the injustice that women and minorities have experienced won't be fixed by by more systematic discrimination.
     
  16. 999132

    999132 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2016
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    17
    This may be a bad idea, but I think there are a lot (A LOT) of various statistics and statements being thrown out with very little understanding by either parties and some consensus should be achieved. I'll try to keep this brief, as the longer the post is, the more people seem to skim and this is where misunderstandings begin, but please read fully.

    First, let's go back to the point about generals (as this seems to be the only thing relating to the Air Force). There is no doubt that the demographics for generals seem to slant towards white males. This isn't overly surprising because 30 years ago, the officer corps was dominated by white males. However, if we want to change that, BASED ON MERIT, we need things like the USAFA commercial. It won't just change with the snap of the fingers, or even with time as the stereotypes may persist.

    What the commercial does is it dispels many of the misconceptions which may surround USAFA and other SAs. Say some middle schooler or young high schooler, see this commercial and is inspired. They put forth everything they have and earn their way into the academy, as said by brovol "ON MERIT ALONE". Say again, that this officer then has an outstanding career and is made a general someday, again BASED ON MERIT. Now we have achieved both goals, diversifying our officer corps and still holding high standards of excellence. But this is where cristcorp and mn-dad's arguments must come into play. That simply can not be achieved by standing idly by, hoping things get better. Without this commercial, it is hard to overcome so many stereotypes these particular groups may hold about USAFA. In order to get highly qualified individuals from these groups to apply to the academy, the academy must be able to get them aware and motivated towards the academy in the first place.

    As for admissions themselves, I'm not going to touch that. They've been doing it for over 60 years now and have done a fairly decent job (;)) so I'll trust them to create the best cadet corps they can.

    Hopefully this helps, if not feel free to start bashing it, doesn't matter to me.
     
    brovol and MN-Dad-2016 like this.
  17. brovol

    brovol Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    1,493
    No bashing. I think you make a good point, and well said. Best argument for the commercial.
     
    999132 likes this.
  18. Maplerock

    Maplerock Proud to be an American 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    1,047

    You must be in 7th heaven with both the super and commandant at USAFA being female.
     
    MN-Dad-2016 likes this.
  19. Badfinger

    Badfinger Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2016
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    61
    I will play....

    Because some/many do not want their kids to have any more competition for appointments?
     
    MN-Dad-2016 likes this.
  20. mikeytony

    mikeytony New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    9
    In my view, the USA is doing relatively well in the areas of diversity and addressing discrimination and hopefully that will continue. There is always scope to improve and it's good discussions like this that keep us going. My previous country struggles with similar issues of diversity and discrimination. Over centuries, a caste system evolved that discrimated against sects of population. After independance, the democratically elected secular govt attempted to correct this through a "quota" system - ie a certain percentage of jobs and seats in educational institutions were reserved for lower caste. This helped but fast forward to the 21st century and now the poor Brahmins (high caste) are upset! :) There is always some social unrest and some groups always think they are getting the short end of the stick. But the good thing is that they can vote in a democracy and express freely. Compare that to dictatorships (Iraq, Syria) where oppression continued and created a tinderbox. btw - this poster while in his previous country and although a minority religion did not benefit from the quota system - my ancestors were supposedly Brahmins who got converted to Christianity!! :) :)