two things i've seen that need to stop

I’m currently deployed in a country half-way around the world from KP and have been watching this post morph over the past days. It is amazing to me, even after 29 years in the Navy, how people view things such as leadership and responsibility. NavIss58 hit it right on the head. If Is2day and the other first class are unhappy with the bearing of the lower class, then it is time for them to take action as a leader.

First let’s not be too concerned with the appearance of a 17 year high school junior who comes to KP for a visit. Why are we complaining about he/she looks when they come to visit? KP does not have a dress code or haircut regulations for visitors. The true test of KP is not who walks in the gate on I-Day in July, it is who walks out of the gate 4 years later after graduation. Like NavIss58 said, even gold needs to be polished and refined. I don’t think anyone is honestly expecting everyone to report in on I-day all spit and polish and ready to be one of the regiment. Now if everyone that walked out that gate after graduation looked and acted the same, then there would be a problem. But I don’t believe there is anyone who is not proud to display a graduate of KP as if they were the most precious gem in the world.

As far as a new Superintendent changing how these kids act, I disagree. It is true that the Supe will provide guidance and direction to where the academy is heading, but the day-to-day leadership falls on the regiment; i.e. Is2Day and the rest of the first class. It is up to them to mold and shape the lower class into leaders and members of the KP community. If they don’t like what they are seeing then it is partially their fault for letting it happen. Honestly if one of my junior officers came up to me complaining about the bearing and behavior of the enlisted personnel, the first question is going to be “What are you doing about it?”

I know until recently it was acceptable to put a plebe on their face at any time during plebe year, but things change and good leaders have to learn to adapt. Don’t sit around doing nothing, but mourning the good old days. You need to adapt to your circumstances. If the only way you know how to lead is to put somebody on their face, then you are missing the big picture. In the fleet we can’t take a sailor right out of boot camp and put them on their face. That ends the day they graduate and become sailors in the US Navy. A few years back, I watched 2 Chief Petty Officers and 3 other sailors get court-martialed. Their crime? Putting a recruit the ringer; lots of push-ups and sit-ups. They went too far and an injury occurred. Their punishment? Convicted at Courts-Martial of hazing. All were reduced in rank and all were transferred to other commands. Their chances of promotion taken away. When I came in the Navy in 1981, it was not uncommon for senior enlisted to physically beat-up a junior enlisted to “straighten” them out. Today we call that Assault and Battery and it is considered a crime. Too often putting somebody on their face for push-ups gets a little out of hand and somebody gets hurt. Now we have rules about hazing. A good leader has to adapt.
One final note. When you graduate KP, you are not done with your education; just a part of it. You will continue to learn throughout your career wherever that may take you. A good leader learns to adapt to the situation. Each person working for you will need to be managed with different leadership styles. What works for one person may not work for another. When you solve that riddle, you will be on your way to being a great leader. It’s time to for the upperclass to put Acta Non Verba into practice. Become part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Best of luck.
 
Jasperdog - responded to your pm but it is not showing in my outbox. Please let me know if you don't receive it.
 
Great discussion..

Or perhaps a "part-time" or "optional" regimental system can be placed for certain areas of study/majors, while others who are majoring in something else can "opt-out" of the regimental system, similar to the system at Maine Maritime?

That IMHO is actually not a bad idea and you’re right, Maine Maritime has successfully implemented that system. At one time the MEBA (Marine Engineers Beneficial Association) Union ran the Calhoon School of Marine Engineering in Baltimore Maryland. The school was three years and it turned out some of the finest marine engineers I ever had the pleasure of sailing with. The school was pretty much a "trade school" and none of its students experienced a "Regimental System". Yet they were able to do extremely well in the industry. The maritime academies are by and large less regimented than Kings Point. They too have a very good track record in providing top notch officers AND leaders in the maritime industry. Captain Phillips of Mass Maritime being a great example.

One very positive thing I have noticed recently about the state maritime cadets, that I don’t see with Kings Point cadets, is that they tend to be older and more mature. State schools don’t have an age limit for admission, so many students that enroll are beyond (or well beyond) their high school years and have been out of the house, away from their parents and living on their own for awhile. A few years ago I had a CMA cadet that had done a couple of years of college then spent 5 years on the assembly line at the New United Motors auto plant in Fremont California before he decided to pursue a seagoing career. So being out in the work force and living on his own he consequently had earned his degree from the School of Hard Knocks. Anyway, according to the Chief Engineer he was flat out EXCELLENT and one of the best cadets he ever had.

My younger son is currently at CMA and has about a year and a half to go until graduation. He is almost 26 years old. He has been living on his own while working as a deckhand on tugs since he was 20. When he has problems at school he takes care of them himself as any adult would. We rarely even discuss school. Once in a great while he will call me to ask a question of a professional nature.. but that’s about it.

I think Kings Point would benefit if the school was able to attract and enroll older students with a bit more "life experience". I know that there are commissioning age limits, but maybe those could be waived to make allowances.

State Maritime Graduates do not set foot onto an actual working merchant ship until getting their first job.
not anymore.. all state maritime grads are required to have 60 days seatime on a merchant ship before taking their license exam .
Look at the stats as to how many USCG Licensed Mariners actually come out of the state maritime academies.
Well, certainly WAY more than there are available deep sea jobs requiring an unlimited license!

while the Merchant Marine is most definitely not a military organization..
Amen to that Jasperdog!!:thumb:
As the great Joseph Conrad once wrote, "for discipline is not ceremonious in merchant ships, where the sense of hierarchy is weak, and where all feel themselves equal before the unconcerned immensity of the sea and the exacting appeal of the work."

Labore Pugnare Parati Sumus..
 
Well said Navy1981.

I'd like to suggest the same applies to the Academic side as well. Those responsible for leading instructors and professors should be interested in performance of their staff and having the intestinal fortitude to make changes where changes are warranted. Management and Leadership are two very different things.

Outside of the Regimental bearing and fitness, there "seems" to be room for significant adjustments in some very important academic areas.

More Acta non Verba on the academic side, would not be a bad thing either.
 
Wow, great discussion. Must be a topic we all have some vested interest in one way or another.

Thanks to Is2Day for posting. I'll take the silence as being too busy improving things to interject. :wink:
 
Very good discussion. I would like to put my 2 cents in for what it's worth.

yes, parents need to back off from the "day to day" operation of any school their child may attend, especially one such as KP and to be there to encourage and cheer for their kids. However, when the upper administration is in such chaos that there are no clearly defiened systems in place, when those in uppder administration are fearful day to day of keeping their jobs and don't want to question or "make waves," then it is time for action by outside groups to at least get answers.

KP has a local and national parents association, with representatives all around the country. They also have strong alumni groups all around the country and world. The Parents Association and the Alumni Foundation are the venues where a parent can go to ask questions without bombarding the school with what they may consider petty concerns. You would be surprised how many of the issues can be answered or dealt with at the parents level without the need of even going to KP administration, and I can assure that the National Parents Association can get the answers if the same question is asked ...thus avoiding the need for individual parents to feel they need to contact school administration or worse their congressional representatives.

As for the need for a school such as Kings Point? Well the same could be said for all of the Federal Service Academies, so let's not beat that dead horse any longer.

One last comment, it saddens me to see the response from some folks on this thread to the original post by is2day. Some of you attacked him saying he needs to lead by example, etc., and stop whining. I'm glad you all have the inside track and know exactly what is2day is up to and what he does on a day-to-day basis.......NOT
 
However, when the upper administration is in such chaos that there are no clearly defined systems in place, when those in upper administration are fearful day to day of keeping their jobs and don't want to question or "make waves," then it is time for action by outside groups to at least get answers.

....

One last comment, it saddens me to see the response from some folks on this thread to the original post by is2day. Some of you attacked him saying he needs to lead by example, etc., and stop whining. I'm glad you all have the inside track and know exactly what is2day is up to and what he does on a day-to-day basis.......NOT

kpmom2011:

First I want to agree with you on your point re the push back directed at is2day. The comments appear to have been made from folks with little to no first hand knowledge about how the Regiment of Midshipmen at KP is or has been managed. Further, they also appear to not have gone back and checked out is2day's posting history or prior posts. He has always been an advocate of taking personal responsibility to effect change in a positive manner.

On you other point though I'd like to point out that I disagree with your characterization. I am not arguing that USMMA doesn't have issue that need to and are being addressed. I am also not arguing that these changes, like any changes, don't have proponents and opponents throughout the current Academy staff, probably at all levels. It wouldn't be natural for changes to be instantaneously, universally addressed. That said, I wouldn't call what has been and is happening chaos. I also don't agree that "no clearly defined systems are in place" from what I've seen, normal day to day operations are primarily continuing using the normal systems, standards and procedures that have government them for years. In some specific instances, changes in response to a GAO report are and have been put in place. Sure there is some "churn" and there are some "second and third order" effects from those changes that are now being seen - again only natural. All that said, your point statement " those in upper administration are fearful day to day of keeping their jobs and don't want to question or "make waves,"" I take most exception with. The folks you allude to are protected under US Civil Service Laws, additionally some are also tenured professors with added protections. None of them need to worry about keeping their jobs and livelihood for questioning things, as long as they are performing their jobs with even moderate levels of competence. They might not like some of the changes, they might not like the way their inputs and suggestions are or are not acted upon. They might not even like how some of the changes affects their assigned duties and responsibilities. However, if they are indeed senior members of the academy staff they are permanent federal civil service employees and they don't have to worry about loosing their jobs for speaking up.
 
KP has a local and national parents association, with representatives all around the country. They also have strong alumni groups all around the country and world. The Parents Association and the Alumni Foundation are the venues where a parent can go to ask questions without bombarding the school with what they may consider petty concerns. You would be surprised how many of the issues can be answered or dealt with at the parents level without the need of even going to KP administration, and I can assure that the National Parents Association can get the answers if the same question is asked ...thus avoiding the need for individual parents to feel they need to contact school administration or worse their congressional representatives.

This is a great paragraph.

This is one of the biggest reasons why it is important to join, be active, and support your local org's. It is amazing what can be accomplished by these groups. I understand that some may need to drive quite a ways to go to meetings and the sort, but try to make it to enough to really be involved and if you can't make it at least be in contact via email with the people. It can make a world of difference.
 
First let’s not be too concerned with the appearance of a 17 year high school junior who comes to KP for a visit. Why are we complaining about he/she looks when they come to visit? KP does not have a dress code or haircut regulations for visitors. The true test of KP is not who walks in the gate on I-Day in July, it is who walks out of the gate 4 years later after graduation. Like NavIss58 said, even gold needs to be polished and refined. I don’t think anyone is honestly expecting everyone to report in on I-day all spit and polish and ready to be one of the regiment.

+1


Is2day4him, are you a Ragin drone?
 
So... I have a couple of questions this prompts...

I went to KP and I have a son there now and I'd still like to know what the heck is "I-Day" anyway, never heard of it in conjunction with KP till I started looking at this message board....but I guess I've now been to at least two... I guess it's another thing people who want to pretend that the purpose and mission of USMMA is to be a "military" academy instead of what it was founded for and made permanent by act of Congress to be....

I'm pretty well on record pointing out that despite the comments of various parents, etc. on this message board, how you dress, during your visit to KP prior to receiving your appointment to see what it's about, etc. cannot work as a negative nor can various notes during your meeting with admissions since it is not a required step. Dressing like or acting like an idiot might mean you missed an opportunity to help your cause but it can directly hurt you. If everything else about your application, grades, standardized test scores, etc. that are required for your application package are exceptional, you won't be the first or last twit admitted or to likely graduate from KP. Some of my friends and classmates would probably point to me as a "perfect example" and I to a few of them.....

RE:
+1 Is2day4him, are you a Ragin drone?

Maybe you're the Ragin Drone since a) Is2day4him is pretty on record as looking forward to a seagoing career and Cdr. Ragin is pretty much on record as thinking and has been heard to say "That sh%t is just stupid..." since you know, it's not what he did - active duty USMC... and b) you don't even have the guts to sign up and have a profile preferring anonymity similar to one gets from talking loud enough to be heard from within ranks but not being seen or willing to stand up and take "credit" for your positions. :shake:
 
Thanks Jasper for clarifying my statement. I ment it more for effect and by any means did not mean to infer that current Admin is lacking in any way. As you stated a lot of change took place and is taking place in the way things are done and that has caused a few kinks in the system. As you know I'm for sure a fan of KP and will go to bat for any of the KP family :biggrin:
 
Maybe you're the Ragin Drone since a) Is2day4him is pretty on record as looking forward to a seagoing career and Cdr. Ragin is pretty much on record as thinking and has been heard to say "That sh%t is just stupid..." since you know, it's not what he did - active duty USMC... and b) you don't even have the guts to sign up and have a profile preferring anonymity similar to one gets from talking loud enough to be heard from within ranks but not being seen or willing to stand up and take "credit" for your positions. :shake:

Jasperdog, you might be right about option A. but is2day4him's opinion about a candidate's appearance on their visitation day falls right in line with LCDR Ragin's constant drone about how a high and tight (birth control hair cut) = professionalism. I disagree.

I want to hear Is2day4him's answer for why a candidate needs to look like everyone else at the Academy who is already there. Yeah a person should be academically qualified for the place and blah blah blah but diversity is something Kings Point could use a little more of.

b. My question is for Is2day4him. What does my identity have anything to do with it? Less Ragin = better Academy.


Edit:
I agree with Is2day4him about the helicopter parents issue.
 
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I want to hear Is2day4him's answer for why a candidate needs to look like everyone else at the Academy who is already there. Yeah a person should be academically qualified for the place and blah blah blah but diversity is something Kings Point could use a little more of.

b. My question is for Is2day4him. What does my identity have anything to do with it? Less Ragin = better Academy.

so i'll finally speak up again to get you to have some idea of what the heck you're talking about.

i have been one of the hardest fighters for the last 4 years to see ragin removed from his office. i think he's a bad influence for "leadership" and i will stand by that statement. the reason he is still here is the basis of my argument against the helicopter parenting. that method of parenting when applied to this school is exceptionally divisive because kids lean on mom and dad for support and not on each other. this allows ragin to divide and conquer by picking out the ones he can and bringing them to his side. if parents would help out by taking a few steps back and let us grow together not as sections or classes, but as a regiment, we'd have a lot of power in getting things done. right now there is no regiment-wide cohesion, which leaves us vulnerable to that man's nonsense.

secondly, about the dressing nice issue.
ever heard the term "Dress for success"? it has nothing to do with ragin. far from it actually. if you show up to a job interview, are you going to show up looking like a bum? if so, not likely that you'll get many jobs worth having in your lifetime. i wasn't suggesting they come looking all squared away. a pair of slacks, button up shirt, tie, with a clean shave and decent haircut (i loathe the high-and-tight) it shows that they care enough about trying to get in that they take the extra 3 minutes to shave and put on a tie. on the other end of the spectrum, coming in a JROTC uniform doesn't do a kid many favors either. that just makes you a target for jokes.
dressing nice is a sign of respect to the people you're going to be around. i'd say that when doing an interview for a service academy, showing some (even a little bit) of respect for the institution goes a long way.

username, i have one thing to say to you:
"tis better to keep your mouth shut and be assumed a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it"
 
OK, I'll bite, who is LCDR Ragin?? Also, is he a LCDR in the USN, USCG or a civilian in wearing a LCDR uniform in the rank structure of KP? Thanks
 
so i'll finally speak up again to get you to have some idea of what the heck you're talking about.
From what you are saying: You need to explain to me what I am saying?

i have been one of the hardest fighters for the last 4 years to see ragin removed from his office. i think he's a bad influence for "leadership" and i will stand by that statement.

Okay, I get it, you are not a Ragin drone.

secondly, about the dressing nice issue.
ever heard the term "Dress for success"? it has nothing to do with ragin. far from it actually. if you show up to a job interview, are you going to show up looking like a bum? if so, not likely that you'll get many jobs worth having in your lifetime. i wasn't suggesting they come looking all squared away. a pair of slacks, button up shirt, tie, with a clean shave and decent haircut (i loathe the high-and-tight) it shows that they care enough about trying to get in that they take the extra 3 minutes to shave and put on a tie.

Your idea of "care enough" is completely subjective. These people are juniors in high school. Where I am from, our Sunday best includes cowboy boots, a pearl snap shirt, and jeans. Obviously, this does not reflect your standard.

on the other end of the spectrum, coming in a JROTC uniform doesn't do a kid many favors either. that just makes you a target for jokes. dressing nice is a sign of respect to the people you're going to be around. i'd say that when doing an interview for a service academy, showing some (even a little bit) of respect for the institution goes a long way.

I agree, the JROTC uniform shows a total lack of understanding for what Kings Point is: "...the country’s primary merchant marine officers training school." On the other hand, how do you find out until you visit?

The Navy81 alumni said it better than I ever could so I will quote it again: "Why are we complaining about he/she looks when they come to visit? KP does not have a dress code or haircut regulations for visitors. The true test of KP is not who walks in the gate on I-Day in July, it is who walks out of the gate 4 years later after graduation."


username, i have one thing to say to you:
"tis better to keep your mouth shut and be assumed a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it"
Do not assume I am an idiot for questioning you. I agreed with nearly all of points in your initial post. I disagreed with one.
 
OK, I'll bite, who is LCDR Ragin?? Also, is he a LCDR in the USN, USCG or a civilian in wearing a LCDR uniform in the rank structure of KP? Thanks

LCDR Ragin is a commissioned officer in the United States Merchant Service. Kings Point and the other maritime academies use this to appoint officers and create a rank structure for the company officers, professors, and administrators.

He was a Gunnery Sargent in the Marine Corps. He was stationed at Kings Point as the Academy's Marine Corps liaison. Upon leaving the Marines, he got a job at Kings Point as a company officer. So he went from Gunnery Sargent to Lieutenant. He has since been promoted to LCDR.

Why he is still employed at Kings Point is beyond me. His leadership style includes yelling incoherent gibberish and every conceivable -ism.

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=461353
 
Thanks. Looks like they either love him or hate him. Actually, sounds like most Gunny's I know.
 
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