Underage Drinking Project

I suppose Canadien (and German, et al) brains develop faster than us Americans.:rolleyes:


I somewhat agree with this but my observations from a long time ago lead me to believe that the fact that it is illegal leads to binge drinking. If one can have a drink anytime the novelty does wear off (for most) and their is less tendency to overindulge at every opportunity. Now I am sure I exercised better judgement at 21 than 18 but I also know I exercised much better judgement by the time I reached 30 and I really don't think I was slower to develop than my peers.

I have looked at some of the research that is"not open to reasonable dispute." and I think the age 21 is somewhat arbitrary.

Do you know any 21 year olds that go get plastered on their b-day because it is finally legal? Good judgement? At least they are not hiding it and are more likely to have some sober support.

Oh 21 is certainly arbitrary. 21 is just 3 years older than 18 and that much more matured. The brain isn't really pretty much done til 25 or so. There a good reason that car rental companies wont rent a car to anyone under 25 Its just as matter of risk statistics and private firms are not constrained by political considerations What I was referring to as not open to dispute was teenage brains aren't done.
 
Oh 21 is certainly arbitrary. 21 is just 3 years older than 18 and that much more matured. The brain isn't really pretty much done til 25 or so. There a good reason that car rental companies wont rent a car to anyone under 25 Its just as matter of risk statistics and private firms are not constrained by political considerations What I was referring to as not open to dispute was teenage brains aren't done.

I can't argue with that.
 
Again, it's SERVICE MEMBERS.... Soldiers are only Army, and they certainly aren't the only ones in harms way.


If we're going to use the 18 years mark, then the argument only holds up if ONLY the people who DO serve are allowed that 18 year limit. Or, if we want to talk about the draft.... then only 18 year old MALES may drink.... sorry ladies, don't like it, tell your Congressmen that women should have to register with the SSS.
 
Well this thread has turned into a mess....

grandpa-simpson.gif
 
Again, it's SERVICE MEMBERS.... Soldiers are only Army, and they certainly aren't the only ones in harms way.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/soldier
sol·dier   [sohl-jer]
noun
1.
a person who serves in an army; a person engaged in military service.
2.
an enlisted man or woman, as distinguished from a commissioned officer: the soldiers' mess and the officers' mess.
3.
a person of military skill or experience: George Washington was a great soldier.
4.
a person who contends or serves in any cause: a soldier of the Lord.
LITS this particular hobby horse of yours is a ridiculous (and inaccurate) form of linguistic quibbling . Common usage of the word "soldier" has long been used as a generic to indicate anyone serving in the military (see definitions above). The French Linguistic police (Commission Générale de Terminologie et de Néologie) have always struck me as rather pathetic with their attempts to curb the French language of any foreign derived words as it rather implies that their language and culture are incapable of surviving without vigorous protective measures (for example by law government employees can not refer to an "E-Mail" or a "blog" in France- it is a "courrier-électronique" "bloc- note" according to the law). I work for a French company- I am assured that there is no one in France other than the most pedantic who find this harping over the common usage of word purity to be anything other than idiotic . However if you really feel that the language is better served by using multiple words to describe a member of the Armed Forces of the United States, then go ahead and do so- but you might consider that you look pretty silly out on that horse by yourself. And as far as your comment that only 18 years olds who serve being germane to the argument-
If we're going to use the 18 years mark, then the argument only holds up if ONLY the people who DO serve are allowed that 18 year limit
no- the point is that 18 years old is the age of consent for service WITH OR WITHOUT Mom's ok. So young "Sluggo" the 18 year old voter and husband is allowed to decide to put himself in harms way as a soldier- but he can't be expected to decide on whether to buy a beer? The fact that the right to buy a beer is denied to 18 year olds actually in harms way just compounds the point.

Bringing this all back to Roman's original post- perhaps this long fur ball of a thread has illustrated why the Tac staff hasn't embraced this project enthusiastically. These Cadets are presumably intelligent enough to understand that if they violate the regulations - they will pay the price whether or not they like them. The Commandant has a responsibility to make sure they understand the Reg and consequences. But to take any tack other than "this is the regulation and you are responsible for following it" is to guarantee you are going to be ignored by a pretty high % of your peers for all of the same reasons that you can see thrashed out in this thread.
The danger is the drinking - not the "underage" and emphasizing the "underage" to guys who legally can get themselves killed as soldiers is seen by many as BS. But - Only a putz would argue that Alcohol is not a big component in many stupid and harmful decisions. Booze and driving don't mix- (for 18 or 48 year olds -one of my son's friends was killed at 19 by a drunk driver- but neither he nor his brother in the car were drinking- the 48 year old driver of the other car was though. The law that the nanny-staters should have pushed to save his life was THROW offenders in jail when they are found to be driving under the influence, not coddle them with license suspensions, probation etc. ). Booze and decision making don't mix. None of those things suddenly stop being an issue on your 21st birthday- and to focus a leadership project on underage drinking as the problem is to make sure that the intelligent cynics among your peers look at this exactly the way many have posted on this thread.
 
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Again, it's SERVICE MEMBERS.... Soldiers are only Army, and they certainly aren't the only ones in harms way.
.

LITS: So sorry, quite right. Had not meant to exclude all service members. Please accept my apologies.
 
The danger is the drinking - not the "underage" and emphasizing the "underage" to guys who legally can get themselves killed as soldiers is seen by many as BS. But - Only a putz would argue that Alcohol is not a big component in many stupid and harmful decisions. Booze and driving don't mix- (for 18 or 48 year olds -one of my son's friends was killed at 19 by a drunk driver- but neither he nor his brother in the car were drinking- the 48 year old driver of the other car was though. The law that the nanny-staters should have pushed to save his life was THROW offenders in jail when they are found to be driving under the influence, not coddle them with license suspensions, probation etc. ). Booze and decision making don't mix. None of those things suddenly stop being an issue on your 21st birthday- and to focus a leadership project on underage drinking as the problem is to make sure that the intelligent cynics among your peers look at this exactly the way many have posted on this thread.

Bruno: I completely agree that the laws should be *much* tougher for everyone. In Sweden, for example, the laws on drunk driving are quite severe and the DUI limit is quite low (viz., 0.02) and penalities quite high See, e.g., http://welcometosweden.blogspot.com/2009/05/drunk-driving-in-sweden.html By contrast, the DUI limit in Maryland where I live is 0.08 -- a huge difference. (It is 0.08 in Virginia too where my son goes to school at VMI). It is hard to drive drunk sitting in jail. And a realistic prospective of real jail time for most folks (not the hard-core criminal) can be quite a deterrent. BTW, while we are on the point, Virginia has an interesting twist. Their DUI limit for underage drivers is 0.02! They calll it zero tolerance level.
 
NC has that law too, and if you get an underage DUI, you lose your license immediately, I can't recall for exactly how long, but I believe it is until your 21st birthday. Plus it is an incredibly high fine.
 
NC has that law too, and if you get an underage DUI, you lose your license immediately, I can't recall for exactly how long, but I believe it is until your 21st birthday. Plus it is an incredibly high fine.

IMHO, that is exactly as it should be. Here is the hard reality:

Nearly one-third of all deaths of 15- to 20-year-olds are the result of a motor vehicle crash and about 35 percent of those fatalities are alcohol-related, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. The alcohol involvement rate for young drivers is roughly twice that of over-21 drivers, according to the NHTSA, while underage drinking at even low levels presents a greater risk of fatal crashes. http://dui.findlaw.com/dui/dui-overview/underage-dui-zero-tolerance-laws.html

QED
 
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Bruno, open a book called the AP Style Book and read it. Specifically, SOLDIER is Army. Specifically SAILOR is Navy. MARINE is Marine Corps, AIRMAN is Air Force, and COAST GUARDSMAN is Coast Guard.


Feel free to follow accepted practice. It's VERY typically for the Army to think eveyone follows their lead, but you know what, there ware centuries of tradition other than Army tradition.

Call a Marine a SOLDIER and see what the response is. Call a Coastie a soldier and you won't get a reply.

It's not hard to figure out.... unless you're a soldier apparently. :rolleyes:
 
Oh 21 is certainly arbitrary. 21 is just 3 years older than 18 and that much more matured. The brain isn't really pretty much done til 25 or so. There a good reason that car rental companies wont rent a car to anyone under 25 Its just as matter of risk statistics and private firms are not constrained by political considerations What I was referring to as not open to dispute was teenage brains aren't done.
So I guess this means a mature brain and good decision making is necessary to buy a beer but those qualities are not necessary to serve in the United States Military.:rolleyes:
 
I am pretty sure NJ has that law too, it's been a long time since I lived there, but I remember a friend back in the late 80's saying she paid 750 for a gin and tonic, and we at first didn't get it until she said she also lost her license.

The bigger problem is when you do get the license back, you may find that you can't afford to drive because of the DUI since the insurance rate will be out the door insane.

Think about it just for any kid under 21 it is a couple of grand a yr., now add in the fact that you have a DUI before you are 21.

That can of bud could end up costing thousands and thousands of dollars for many yrs.
 
I am pretty sure NJ has that law too, it's been a long time since I lived there, but I remember a friend back in the late 80's saying she paid 750 for a gin and tonic, and we at first didn't get it until she said she also lost her license.

The bigger problem is when you do get the license back, you may find that you can't afford to drive because of the DUI since the insurance rate will be out the door insane.

Think about it just for any kid under 21 it is a couple of grand a yr., now add in the fact that you have a DUI before you are 21.

That can of bud could end up costing thousands and thousands of dollars for many yrs.

Talk about a hangover!
 
Bruno, open a book called the AP Style Book and read it. Specifically, SOLDIER is Army. Specifically SAILOR is Navy. MARINE is Marine Corps, AIRMAN is Air Force, and COAST GUARDSMAN is Coast Guard.


Feel free to follow accepted practice. It's VERY typically for the Army to think eveyone follows their lead, but you know what, there ware centuries of tradition other than Army tradition.

Call a Marine a SOLDIER and see what the response is. Call a Coastie a soldier and you won't get a reply.

It's not hard to figure out.... unless you're a soldier apparently. :rolleyes:

The AP style book? Thanks for the laugh. Those clowns think the proper abbreviation for Private First Class is not "PFC" but "Pfc." They're not exactly a bellwether of grammatical propriety, despite their own delusions.

Bruno is correct. Soldier is both a specific and generic term, based on context.
 
NC has that law too, and if you get an underage DUI, you lose your license immediately, I can't recall for exactly how long, but I believe it is until your 21st birthday. Plus it is an incredibly high fine.

BTW, to add to the point, the Federal government conditions federal highway funds on states adopting the 0.02 limit for underage drivers. See Spending Clause point above. The citation is 23 U.S.C. 410. My understanding, having now just looked into it out of curiousity, is that all the states now have this 0.02 limit for underage drivers. For those who care about uniformity, that has been achieved. Money talks.
 
So I guess this means a mature brain and good decision making is necessary to buy a beer but those qualities are not necessary to serve in the United States Military.:rolleyes:

Apples and oranges, Packer. In the military, you are part of an organization with a mission and a command structure devoted to achieving it. An individual drinking beer has none of that.
 
Driving after consuming alcohol should be an entirely different subject than what is being discussed here.

That being said, 42 states (including Colorado) allow underage alcohol consumption in a private home, private office, or on private property with parental presence and consent.

The academies have their own rules that must be followed (with severe consequences if they are not) but in the majority of the USA, minors are legally allowed to consume alcohol.
 
Apples and oranges, Packer. In the military, you are part of an organization with a mission and a command structure devoted to achieving it. An individual drinking beer has none of that.

Maybe we should allow 15 year olds to enlist then because they will be part of an organization where mental maturity doesn't matter.
 
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