US Air Force Academy brawl injures 23

[Pima]

I understand your position Polaris, but honestly Sen. Webb spoke the truth. Aren't you making them into some form of demi-god and placing them on a pedestal?

Let's be honest, they are human.

Have you been to an O'Club at a fighter base? At SJAFB at 10 pm every guy/gal in a flight suit will start singing "I am an A$$hole" by Dennis Leary. They do it arm and arm. Even the spouses chime in.

This is their private life. It has nothing to do with what they are like as an adult in work place environments.

Every squadron hooch in the AF has a light, once it is turned on the world changes.

Things have changed over the yrs., and you no longer see stuff that you did 20 yrs ago, such as Canadian rodeo's, pilot songs, and sock checks, but some things still exist, such as naming ceremonies.

I think that is what Webb was saying. It is their own form of bonding. We may not believe it is mature, but it isn't are arse on the line when bullets start flying, it is theirs. Who are we to judge or criticize for their actions after work?

Let's be real, their vulgarity issue is nothing worse than you would hear at a superbowl game. Their competitiveness is nothing worse than many intramural sports leagues.

At this rate let's make sure the FNG mugs are all replaced with NG. Where does the line end in your opinion? Mugs, naming ceremonies, warrior banquets, grogs, words like cranium and container? I am sure they should also stop playing golf tourneys too because OMG they drink beer on the course just like civilians.

This is their world. I am thankful that they want to be in that world, so IMPO, they can do, say, act vulgar in their after work hours as much as they want. Fact is I have a choice like I do when watching tv...I can leave! Nobody is forcing you to be a part of that world. FWIW, there are many ADAF members that feel the same way, and you know what they do? They don't partake in those activities.

 

[LineInTheSand]

We don't tolerate such behavior in the civilian sector and we should tolerate it less in the military. To tolerate anything else is unacceptable.

Haha, SURE we do! Heck, just look at CEOs of major companies, you'll find some of this there too. When it happens in the civilian sector (which you haven't been a part of in 14 years), it's not talked about in military forums, but make no mistake, it happens. And we won't even go into hormones in the civilian sector.

 

[Boozebin]

We also don't tolerate shooting the opposition in the civilian world either so we should stop that in the military as well. And please don't apple and orange this. We can both do that and it narrows the focus of an honest discussion. With any difference of opinion, that can happen (apple and orange something to death) but to have an honest discussion about it you have to get to root cause and find outside comparisons to reach a consensus.

It's my understanding that the graduates (from any commissioning source) are suppose to represent military officers not the best of american society. Do I personally feel that they are the best of american society? Yes, but not because they are prim and proper it's because they are willing to give the single most expensive thing any of us can give something; their lives. Are they held to a higher standard? Yes of course and they should be. They will be responsible for millions or dollars and most importantly lives. Are they still human? Yes they are and to err is human. I would rather have them make this "mistake" now in their lives and understand to make adjustments than wait until our sons and daughters life is on the line and they never learned this lesson.

I remember as a kid playing king of the hill with my friends; is this any different? I have a field behind my house with a big hill and guess what? I saw my son doing the same thing I would do with my friend if we saw a big hill. What did I do as his dad? Walked back in my house smiling! When he and his friends came home they had a few bruises and one was limping but ALL of them were smiling and laughing. Did they play king of the hill again of course they did! Did anyone get hurt the second time around? No because they got the biggest lesson out of it which was restraint and boundaries of what they can do without getting hurt and still having fun. If you're telling me that the best and the brightest can't do what a group of 7 year olds did then we have a large problem with admissions.

As I try and proof read this it's coming off a bit harsh and please believe me I don't want it to sound or read that way I just want to make this a point of discussion not a fight.

 

[Pima]

I don't think you are being harsh boozebin.

Than again, I do side with your position. I had to laugh at your king of the hill story, but it was who could jump the creek in the woods. When our DS was 12 almost 13 our DS and his friends were playing a game like that.

We had a finished basement, Bullet and I were hanging out there, him still in his blues, when DS's friend comes pounding down he steps (not uncommon because that was where the game system was), and he turns to Bullet and says:

Mr. Bullet I think DS broke his arm.

We didn't jump up, just screamed DS come here so we can check you! DS walks down with one hand holding his arm at the elbow, and you could see the concave. Bullet didn't say anything, but DS get in the car now.

We laugh about that story to this day. and like your kids friends. They never played that game again.

These are smart kids, and next yr they will ratchet it down because they will not only remember the injuries, but also the fact that they were given fair warning by the administration.

If they don't than the bigger issue is not about living at a higher standard, it is about who in on earth are they appointing if they don't have common sense.

Spit on me once, shame on you, spit on me twice shame on me. This incident was the 1st.

 

[DevilDog]

That statement is shameful and embarrassing. I expect a litany of responses to this post. The Academies are institutions that train the best and brightest of Americans to be professional officers and leaders in the military and American society. The graduates are supposed to represent the best of american society and ideals. There is on excuse for such behavior regardless of what the end result is ie Combat. We don't tolerate such behavior in the civilian sector and we should tolerate it less in the military. To tolerate anything else is unacceptable.

I do take offense to you calling this statement by James Webb both shameful and embarassing. Mr. Webb is a true war hero. Unlike most members of the Senate, he has sons that have served our country in harms way. As a Marine, I would follow James Webb into combat knowing that he knew what he is doing. I hope my own son has leaders like James Webb to guide him as a junior officer. Where did Mr. Webb learn to lead men in combat? At the USNA. Those traditions helped make him the leader he became.

 

[AHS74]

My DD (now a 3C) enjoyed First Snow last year, just a few minor bruises. She missed it this year since she was travelling back to USAFA with her team. I asked her about this years event and the discussion it has brought about. She immediately defended First Snow and said outsiders have no clue about life at the Academy don't need to criticize what they don't understand. The need for tradition and stress relief are important. It is great to hear how she has taken ownership of USAFA, that it is her school. She has come a long way from BCT.

 

[bsa07eagle]

I had a blast in FS/FS, but ours was shortened by quite a bit after an injury. At which point we stopped it all for the night and took care of our injured cadet. Although I did participate, I hardly think it will make me a worse officer because of it, honestly it brings a squadron together more effectively than most of the training our permanent party conjure up. I may or may not agree with the decision made by our commandant, but from his perspective I can understand why he made the decision and I went up after the briefing and talked to him personally afterward.

The only part of his argument that I believe is invalid is one that will probably make me some enemies among the parents here. The main point that the commandant based the reasoning on was the fact that he didn't want parents calling him asking him why his/her child was hurt, and this reasoning is used quite frequently around the academy by our leadership whenever giving reason to stop something "we wouldn't want your parents to ask us why their child is hurt." I'm not a paren and do not have the point of view that a parent would have so please correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion the very basis of mentioning our parents at ever major decision makes me feel like I have the level of maturity of a kid in grade school in the principle's office. In my opinion (whether FS/FS, or anything dangerous that could happen in a military life), I chose this way of life and worked my butt off to get, and stay, here. Not saying that I don't respect my parents, I do, but the fact that they would call a militay academy asking why they allowed their 20 year old child to get injured frustrates me. I realize that college students aren't seen as the most responsible or mature people in many cases, but when military instutioms have to constantly be aware of what the parents of their cadets may say they have to resort to babysitting us. And I know that most cadets would agree with me when I say that I am responsible for my own actions. If I get hurt doing something I chose to be a part of, that is on me, not my parents, and not the academy.

Sorry for another lengthy post. Realize that I am posting from the perspective of just a cadet and I don't have the knowledge or experience to address every perspective. Despite the decision made by myself to be involved or the commandant to stop it, the decisions were made, 23 cadets were injured (with all of them wishing it would continue despite their injures). Anyway, moral of the story? We make our decisions, we are responsible for our decisions, and we pay whatever consequences for those decisions.

Later,

Brian

 

[Dad]

I had a blast in FS/FS, but ours was shortened by quite a bit after an injury. At which point we stopped it all for the night and took care of our injured cadet. Although I did participate, I hardly think it will make me a worse officer because of it, honestly it brings a squadron together more effectively than most of the training our permanent party conjure up. I may or may not agree with the decision made by our commandant, but from his perspective I can understand why he made the decision and I went up after the briefing and talked to him personally afterward.

The only part of his argument that I believe is invalid is one that will probably make me some enemies among the parents here. The main point that the commandant based the reasoning on was the fact that he didn't want parents calling him asking him why his/her child was hurt, and this reasoning is used quite frequently around the academy by our leadership whenever giving reason to stop something "we wouldn't want your parents to ask us why their child is hurt." I'm not a paren and do not have the point of view that a parent would have so please correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion the very basis of mentioning our parents at ever major decision makes me feel like I have the level of maturity of a kid in grade school in the principle's office. In my opinion (whether FS/FS, or anything dangerous that could happen in a military life), I chose this way of life and worked my butt off to get, and stay, here. Not saying that I don't respect my parents, I do, but the fact that they would call a militay academy asking why they allowed their 20 year old child to get injured frustrates me. I realize that college students aren't seen as the most responsible or mature people in many cases, but when military instutioms have to constantly be aware of what the parents of their cadets may say they have to resort to babysitting us. And I know that most cadets would agree with me when I say that I am responsible for my own actions. If I get hurt doing something I chose to be a part of, that is on me, not my parents, and not the academy.

Sorry for another lengthy post. Realize that I am posting from the perspective of just a cadet and I don't have the knowledge or experience to address every perspective. Despite the decision made by myself to be involved or the commandant to stop it, the decisions were made, 23 cadets were injured (with all of them wishing it would continue despite their injures). Anyway, moral of the story? We make our decisions, we are responsible for our decisions, and we pay whatever consequences for those decisions.

Later,

Brian

I'm sorry that you feel obligated to appologize for citing your valued viewpoint. Your last line is profound and I, for one, am glad you shared it. By the way, I promise not to call BGen Lengyel to complain about anything.

Best wishes.

 

[Rage_14]

I realize this forum is just as much for the parents to speculate about the goings on of the Academy as it is for everyone else, but I believe that if we just let this thread die out then it would allow everything to get back to normal. Like Brian said, we made our decisions and paid the consequences, so lets move on.

With that being said, Go Air Force! Beat Army!

 

[bsa07eagle]

Thank you, and once again I mean no disrespect to any parents on here. Once again it is the 1% of bad that gets represented above the 99% who do the right thing.

 

[EagleDriver]

I understand your position Polaris, but honestly Sen. Webb spoke the truth. Aren't you making them into some form of demi-god and placing them on a pedestal?

Let's be honest, they are human.

Have you been to an O'Club at a fighter base? At SJAFB at 10 pm every guy/gal in a flight suit will start singing "I am an A$$hole" by Dennis Leary. They do it arm and arm. Even the spouses chime in.

This is their private life. It has nothing to do with what they are like as an adult in work place environments.

Every squadron hooch in the AF has a light, once it is turned on the world changes.

Things have changed over the yrs., and you no longer see stuff that you did 20 yrs ago, such as Canadian rodeo's, pilot songs, and sock checks, but some things still exist, such as naming ceremonies.

I think that is what Webb was saying. It is their own form of bonding. We may not believe it is mature, but it isn't are arse on the line when bullets start flying, it is theirs. Who are we to judge or criticize for their actions after work?

Let's be real, their vulgarity issue is nothing worse than you would hear at a superbowl game. Their competitiveness is nothing worse than many intramural sports leagues.

At this rate let's make sure the FNG mugs are all replaced with NG. Where does the line end in your opinion? Mugs, naming ceremonies, warrior banquets, grogs, words like cranium and container? I am sure they should also stop playing golf tourneys too because OMG they drink beer on the course just like civilians.

This is their world. I am thankful that they want to be in that world, so IMPO, they can do, say, act vulgar in their after work hours as much as they want. Fact is I have a choice like I do when watching tv...I can leave! Nobody is forcing you to be a part of that world. FWIW, there are many ADAF members that feel the same way, and you know what they do? They don't partake in those activities.

Ahhh the memories....At Hickam AFB The 199th FS still instills "da traditions". And for the fiasco at USAFA....Hmmmmmmmm....Hmmmmmmmm &#####CK HYMMMMMmmmmmmm My DS, C3C says its blown out of proportion...

 

[Christcorp]

I realize this forum is just as much for the parents to speculate about the goings on of the Academy as it is for everyone else, but I believe that if we just let this thread die out then it would allow everything to get back to normal. Like Brian said, we made our decisions and paid the consequences, so lets move on.

With that being said, Go Air Force! Beat Army!

Very mature position. However; knowledge is NEVER a bad thing. Letting a topic die, and having people "Agree to disagree" is never the right answer. Will everyone always agree? No, never going to happen. But instead of agreeing to disagree, it's important that each position understand, appreciate, and respect other positions.

It's also important for those less knowledgeable of the academy and military in general, to realize that it's a very well regulated society all it's own. And that those in charge at different levels are more than capable of maintaining the health, moral, and safety of it's members; as well as accomplishing the mission. They don't need parents, the media, or anyone else telling them how things should be. They have their own internal affairs network to handle just about any situation. All the way up to the president of the United States.

If you respect the men and women in the military and their leaders, then let them handle it. We don't need parents or anyone else saying what the academy should or should not allow. Opinions are fine, but leave it at that. And if you have a son or daughter at the academy, then they are NOW ADULTS. They don't need you to fight their battles for them. Sorry; I know that upsets some parents. But to be totally honest; they don't need you. They may want you at times for advice, comfort, a shoulder, etc... but that doesn't mean they need you. (And if they DO NEED you, then maybe they aren't ready for the academy or the military). But that's another topic.

I know Brian and rage realize that it's not a big deal. And they are very polite at presenting their point. Me on the other hand; I tend to tell it the way it is. Not always favorable to all readers. But the academy and the military have your son's and daughter's best interests at heart. They can take care of things themselves. I just wish like in the old days that dirty laundry was taken care of internally. Things like this topic shouldn't even be reported, let alone debated. Anything that needs to be done, will be done, internally. They don't need any outsider's opinion or suggestion.

 

[Dad]

Very mature position. However; knowledge is NEVER a bad thing. Letting a topic die, and having people "Agree to disagree" is never the right answer. Will everyone always agree? No, never going to happen. But instead of agreeing to disagree, it's important that each position understand, appreciate, and respect other positions.

It's also important for those less knowledgeable of the academy and military in general, to realize that it's a very well regulated society all it's own. And that those in charge at different levels are more than capable of maintaining the health, moral, and safety of it's members; as well as accomplishing the mission. They don't need parents, the media, or anyone else telling them how things should be. They have their own internal affairs network to handle just about any situation. All the way up to the president of the United States.

If you respect the men and women in the military and their leaders, then let them handle it. We don't need parents or anyone else saying what the academy should or should not allow. Opinions are fine, but leave it at that. And if you have a son or daughter at the academy, then they are NOW ADULTS. They don't need you to fight their battles for them. Sorry; I know that upsets some parents. But to be totally honest; they don't need you. They may want you at times for advice, comfort, a shoulder, etc... but that doesn't mean they need you. (And if they DO NEED you, then maybe they aren't ready for the academy or the military). But that's another topic.

I know Brian and rage realize that it's not a big deal. And they are very polite at presenting their point. Me on the other hand; I tend to tell it the way it is. Not always favorable to all readers. But the academy and the military have your son's and daughter's best interests at heart. They can take care of things themselves. I just wish like in the old days that dirty laundry was taken care of internally. Things like this topic shouldn't even be reported, let alone debated. Anything that needs to be done, will be done, internally. They don't need any outsider's opinion or suggestion.

'nuff said.

 

[CW2]

Air Force becoming part of 'The Military'

Good show USAFA. Some 'tough guy' attitude adjusting is needed in ALL the service academies. Years before even my time......the toughest-smart guys from our towns would attend the academies. Now it is mostly just smart people. Sure, this post will annoy some of you, but I'm correct.......and you know it. Maybe USAFA is just cranky because their football team is having a bad year.

 

[Christcorp]

Having a bad year? Compared to army? Lol

 

[Tigger]

Very mature position. However; knowledge is NEVER a bad thing. Letting a topic die, and having people "Agree to disagree" is never the right answer. Will everyone always agree? No, never going to happen. But instead of agreeing to disagree, it's important that each position understand, appreciate, and respect other positions.

It's also important for those less knowledgeable of the academy and military in general, to realize that it's a very well regulated society all it's own. And that those in charge at different levels are more than capable of maintaining the health, moral, and safety of it's members; as well as accomplishing the mission. They don't need parents, the media, or anyone else telling them how things should be. They have their own internal affairs network to handle just about any situation. All the way up to the president of the United States.

If you respect the men and women in the military and their leaders, then let them handle it. We don't need parents or anyone else saying what the academy should or should not allow. Opinions are fine, but leave it at that. And if you have a son or daughter at the academy, then they are NOW ADULTS. They don't need you to fight their battles for them. Sorry; I know that upsets some parents. But to be totally honest; they don't need you. They may want you at times for advice, comfort, a shoulder, etc... but that doesn't mean they need you. (And if they DO NEED you, then maybe they aren't ready for the academy or the military). But that's another topic.

I know Brian and rage realize that it's not a big deal. And they are very polite at presenting their point. Me on the other hand; I tend to tell it the way it is. Not always favorable to all readers. But the academy and the military have your son's and daughter's best interests at heart. They can take care of things themselves. I just wish like in the old days that dirty laundry was taken care of internally. Things like this topic shouldn't even be reported, let alone debated. Anything that needs to be done, will be done, internally. They don't need any outsider's opinion or suggestion.

Are you suggesting that no one has the right to question what goes on at the academies or in the military in general? Because if that is your opinion, then I do disagree. So if students are being harassed or assaulted then it should just be handled internally and without any accountability? Seriously? That seems like a pretty slippery (and dangerous!) slope.

 

[raimius]

Are you suggesting that no one has the right to question what goes on at the academies or in the military in general? Because if that is your opinion, then I do disagree. So if students are being harassed or assaulted then it should just be handled internally and without any accountability? Seriously? That seems like a pretty slippery (and dangerous!) slope.

YES, things should be handled internally. The only time things should go to Congress or the court of public opinion is if the unit leadership, the IG system, and the UCMJ fail to solve the problem.

 

[Dad]

YES, things should be handled internally. The only time things should go to Congress or the court of public opinion is if the unit leadership, the IG system, and the UCMJ fail to solve the problem.

+1

 

[Christcorp]

Are you suggesting that no one has the right to question what goes on at the academies or in the military in general? Because if that is your opinion, then I do disagree. So if students are being harassed or assaulted then it should just be handled internally and without any accountability? Seriously? That seems like a pretty slippery (and dangerous!) slope.

First; you have the "Right" to question and say anything you want to. It's a free country. Now; SHOULD you? That is another question. And honestly, the most important question. Do you think in the 21 years I spent in the military, that I NEVER had a problem? That I didn't sometimes have personnel issues with someone else? That I might have encountered someone that treated me unfairly. What about in a civilian work place? Do people not ever have problems with bosses, management, peers, etc... Whether it's racism, sexism, harassment, etc... it exists. But the question is: "Did I have my mommy or daddy call my commanding officer to get the problem fixed"? If you're a woman and was harassed in the work place, do you call your mommy and have her call your boss? So why is the academy any different. Like it or not, confrontation and handling problems is also part of growing up.

I'm simply saying that it's not mommy and daddy's place. And how do you figure that if an issue is handled internally, that there isn't any accountability. Are you implying that the military, in this case the academy, is predominantly a cover up?

The military, whether it's the academy or active duty, has a chain of command in which personnel are able to address grievances of any nature. Why do you assume that no one will do anything about them? Why do you assume that the military wants to cover up everything? Why you you assume that there's no accountability. I specifically said in my previous post, which you properly quoted but obviously didn't read: "They have their own internal affairs network to handle just about any situation."

As with any situation however, there will be times when an individual who feels they have been wrongs, believes they haven't received satisfactory attention to their grievance. Even if they've taken their complaint to members of congress and the secretary of the air force/defense. And some times, they feel they need to take their grievance to the media and/or civilian judicial system. These are all valid options.

But in the spirit of this original post, I tried to address 2 very concerning points.

1. For things like the FS/FS to be immediately published to the press, allows the court of public opinion to affect any decisions, disciplinary actions, etc... to occur and it bypasses the total chain of command of the military. There's obviously a different line when we're discussing a criminal case. But for things non-criminal, the court of public opinion has no business interfering and subverting the military chain until such chain performs unsatisfactorily.

2. It is not a parent's job or responsibility any longer to take care of their son or daughter's problems. They may still be your son or daughter, but they aren't your "Minor Child" any longer. They are adults. If they have a problem, they need to address it themselves.

If my wife has a problem at work with her boss, I might have the "Right" to call him up and address the problem, but that doesn't mean I should. If my high school son had a problem with how the football coach was conducting practice, I'd definitely have the right to confront the coach and inquire. That doesn't mean I would.

WHENEVER my son or daughter came to me and said something about the other picking on them, or a teacher they thought was being unfair, or a relative being mean to them; etc... The FIRST QUESTION out of my mouth was ALWAYS:....... "What did they say when you talked to them about it?"... If they say they didn't talk to them, then I tell them to leave and go talk to them first. I do the same thing with employees. When someone says they don't like certain jokes a co-worker says everyday; I ask them what that person said when they brought it to their attention? If they say they haven't talked to them about it, then I say: "Leave my office". But if they do address the person causing them a problem, and they won't cooperate, back off, etc... Then definitely I will pounce on them. Same with the media and the court of public opinion. When a military person has concerns and doesn't receive satisfactory attention by the MANY LEVELS in their chain of command, all the way to congress, chief of staff, secretary of defense, and even the president; then they have every right if they believe their grievances aren't being addressed properly, to bring it beyond and to the media and public. But this topic totally jumped past everything. Now, you have a dean and superintendent having to be "Reactive" to media and possibly parents instead of handling it the way it SHOULD have been handled.

I hope you can understand the difference between what you asked and what it should be. If you don't understand, based on my lengthy post, then I'm sorry. I can't explain it any better. And definitely not any shorter.

 

[Christcorp]

YES, things should be handled internally. The only time things should go to Congress or the court of public opinion is if the unit leadership, the IG system, and the UCMJ fail to solve the problem.

Damn ramius. You couldn't have posted 3 minutes earlier???

You said in 1 sentence what I tried to say in multiple paragraphs. I started the post then had to walk away and come back to finish it. LOL