US Cannot Sit Idly By

BUT, Back to the shooting war we were all discussing: What can we do about Georgia NOW? Honestly, and again ITRHO, I really don't think we can do much, far all the reasons mentioned above. But we CAN do something for the future, and I think Zaphod mentioned it; immediate unilateral support treaties with the OTHER neighbors of the not-such-a-nice-guy-after-all Mr. Putin (Poland, Lithunia, etc.). Something to give Mr. Putin (he of the "I looked into his soul and could tell he was a straight shooter". Nice read there Mr. Bush; remind me not to bankroll your next poker game :wink:), a little something to think about the next time he gets "uppity".

Oh, yeah! He's a mind-reader! :thumb:

More importantly, and this is th eother dimension of America's might people tend to ignore because it seems just to easy to "send in the missiles and troops", how about some ECONOMIC sanctions?

Against what? They're flush with oil money. I don't think we could hurt them nearly as much as we used to be able to. I may be wrong, of course, and if so, then yes, economic sanctions could be added to the list.
 
Is there anything like that now? Mean old California has a Republican Governor and 19 of its 53 Housemembers are Republicans, and conservative ones at that.

Ahem....

I can't speak for the whopping 19 of 53 house members, but Governor Terminator is NOT a Conservative. Not even close.
 
Z where was the mighty CIA in all this? Dropped the ball big time IMHO.
 
Z where was the mighty CIA in all this? Dropped the ball big time IMHO.

They're still down on all-fours looking under the sofa to find the ball they dropped in 1991 when the USSR up and vanished before our eyes.

While they're down there, maybe they can find the 9/11 ball, the WMD ball, the Osama Bin Laden ball, and the "we send our employee's unqualified husbands on jobs for us" ball.

Don't get me started on the Clueless Inaction Agency. I have relatives who work there who think that NONE of this is THEIR fault. Oh, no! It's all BUSH'S fault! I guess they think he's supposed to be collecting all the data and giving THEM briefings, and that all the reports of WMD that Clinton used to parrot, and the complete missing of the USSR's collapse were all his fault, too. :rolleyes:
 
Well, I think before people get all eager to give a blank check to Georgia, a certain amount of realism should enter here. This war didn't start with a Russian invasion. This began when Georgia entered into a breakaway territory and started shelling peacekeepers (some of whom were Russian).

Was the Russian reaction responsible? No, but there you have it.

And the Georgian President is an angel, and his country isn't a democracy. In 2007, 15 day state of emergency, banned the opposition from protesting, sent troops and riot police in to squash everyone who opposed him. Beyond the natural gas pipeline, what other real interest should we have? And John "We Are All Georgians" McCain needs to get a clue and stop copying JFK unless he wants a swift kick inthe pants.
 
Poland just signed on to let us base 10 interceptor missiles in their country, in return for help with their air force.

...that's one wayt to hit back at the Russians.
 
Poland just signed on to let us base 10 interceptor missiles in their country, in return for help with their air force.

...that's one wayt to hit back at the Russians.

Will Putin be checking out Warsaw for vacation homes next?

Yes Ramius it is good news that some of the most repressed countries in the world, and who remember what Communism does are now our best friends.
 
This began when Georgia entered into a breakaway territory and started shelling peacekeepers (some of whom were Russian).

That breakaway territory was in Georgia.

Regardless, even if the Russians were responding to what you describe, they would only have had justification for entering Ossetia, not the rest of Georgia.

Was the Russian reaction responsible? No, but there you have it.

I wonder where Jimmy Carter is with his accusations of "disproportional responses". Oh, yeah.... He only does that when it's communists or terrorists getting their asses handed to them. Silly me! :rolleyes:

And the Georgian President is an angel, and his country isn't a democracy. In 2007, 15 day state of emergency, banned the opposition from protesting, sent troops and riot police in to squash everyone who opposed him.

Using that mindset, we should have lost WWII because of what we did to the Japanese in this country.

Beyond the natural gas pipeline, what other real interest should we have?

You want a better one than that?

OK, maybe not allowing a thug to simply gobble up his neighbors without opposition. It's bad enough we're letting Mexico do it to US.

And John "We Are All Georgians" McCain needs to get a clue and stop copying JFK unless he wants a swift kick inthe pants.

So what's wrong with that? Good or bad, Georgia is a democracy that chose independence from the nation that has now invaded it. They are also one of those nations that have stood by us (unlike half our political establishment) in Iraq.

I thought JFK was the patron saint of Democrats? :confused:

Oh! That was before Obama became the Messiah. Sorry. :thumb:
 
PS, Georgia has sent the 3rd most number of soldiers to help in Iraq (2,000 IIRC). They are an important ally. They are also in such proximity to Iran that having a friendly nation right there provides a lot of advantages.
 
So what's wrong with that? Good or bad, Georgia is a democracy that chose independence from the nation that has now invaded it. They are also one of those nations that have stood by us (unlike half our political establishment) in Iraq.

What tin-can definition of democracy do you have?

Using that mindset, we should have lost WWII because of what we did to the Japanese in this country.

Georgia smacked down own its political oppositon in peacetime, not during a state of war.

Oh! That was before Obama became the Messiah.

Oh I see someone is a Dittohead. I would say something nasty here about Rush Limbaugh but I don't like to be mean to recovering drug addicts. :wink:

I think what it comes down to , is simple. I sleep easy at night because I know Condi Rice and Gates are involved here and I think this also runs into Petraues's jurisdiction at CENTCOM. They're much more respectable and qualifed then the chickenhawks like Rumsfield, Cheney, and Feith that were thankfully sidelined in the Administration. Hopefully Junior just stays in China for the rest of the Olympics to let the grown-ups handle things. Maybe his dad should give him some advice. One only wonders how better off we would have been as a nation if the above-mentioned fools never got near 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
 
What tin-can definition of democracy do you have?

Let's see..... They held elections and the current guy won?

Georgia smacked down own its political oppositon in peacetime, not during a state of war.

Was the opposition violent?

Also, we could argue that we are in a state of war now, but somehow it always seems that the terrorists have to be treated better than our own troops do, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Oh I see someone is a Dittohead.

Proud of it. :biggrin:

I would say something nasty here about Rush Limbaugh but I don't like to be mean to recovering drug addicts. :wink:

Yeah. Gotta love the recovering drug addicts that can still run circles around every liberal who has attempted to become his rival on the air, eh?

Plus the fact that you know you would have your clock cleaned for trying. :biggrin:

BTW, what's upp with Err Amerika these days? Have they doubled their audience to an even dozen people yet? :yllol:

Hopefully Junior just stays in China for the rest of the Olympics to let the grown-ups handle things.

You mean the grownups he's appointed, like Rice and Patreaus, or should I say "Betray us", as folks of your (apparently) political stripe called him?

Maybe his dad should give him some advice.

Why? You guys despised him, too. Remember all the "No blood for oil!" BS back in 1990, when we were responding to the invasion of an ally by the guy we later had to go back and PERMANENTLY remove?

One only wonders how better off we would have been as a nation if the above-mentioned fools never got near 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Yeah, Gore would have responded after 9/11 by mailing Osama an environmental impact statement. It's better than retaliation, right? :rolleyes:
 
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They are also in such proximity to Iran that having a friendly nation right there provides a lot of advantages.

Dude! IRAQ is right next door to Iran and some idiots STILL can't get the concept! What makes you think they'll get it with regards to Georgia?

:yllol:
 
Well, it looks like we just pissed off the Russians by agreeing to deploy missiles in Poland!

Welcome back to the good ol' days, ladies and gentlemen! :eek:
 
Z you had me going there for a sec.

<snip>

So please don't question my bona fides and sincerity here. Thanks guys.:wink:

Never, buddy. I do believe honest people can disagree, and you've never given anyone here any reason to think you're not a stand-up American. :smile:

But you have to admit you kinda set yourself up there a bit.... :thumb:
 
You know, this situation is actually going to be benefitial to us if we play it right. It gives us a way to bolster alliances with Eastern European nations and to include them into NATO. We are going to help Poland modernize its military (creates jobs here and is a good thing economically IMO) and I'm sure other neighbors will jump on board. This is one of the first big situations where we are on the same page as our West European allies and gets us all playing together again against a large, aggressive power. Maybe having somebody like Russia playing hardball will help reunite us with our allies and help rebuild our reputation in the world. Thoughts?
 
Good outlook, I hope it turns out that way. I just hope this doesn't set the precedent for future reaction to totalitarian aggression. Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito, Mao, Hussein, how many more do we need?
 
You know, this situation is actually going to be benefitial to us if we play it right. It gives us a way to bolster alliances with Eastern European nations and to include them into NATO. We are going to help Poland modernize its military (creates jobs here and is a good thing economically IMO) and I'm sure other neighbors will jump on board. This is one of the first big situations where we are on the same page as our West European allies and gets us all playing together again against a large, aggressive power. Maybe having somebody like Russia playing hardball will help reunite us with our allies and help rebuild our reputation in the world. Thoughts?


You've touched on all the good points in such a scenario, and I certainly don't discount any of them. In fact, I'll add one more. The fact that the world as a whole begins reuniting into two general factions means that anyone who wants to play outside those two factions is going to have a hard time. Like it or not, the Soviets did keep some measure of control over their "customers", mainly because they didn't need some crackpot like Osama Bin Laden pulling a 9/11 and having the United States blame Russia for it.

The bad parts, of course, are a return to proxy wars and hair-trigger alerts.

As for "our reputation in the world", I can assure you that the only "reputation" we would have rebuilt is the same one we've ALWAYS had, the extremely powerful neighbor who we don't like inviting to cocktail parties but to whom we run to in an instant whenever the basement floods, the electricity goes out, the cupboard goes bare, or the neighbor on the other side pays an unwelcomed visit. :mad:
 
Good outlook, I hope it turns out that way. I just hope this doesn't set the precedent for future reaction to totalitarian aggression. Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito, Mao, Hussein, how many more do we need?

Castro, Jong-Il, etc., etc...

I fear there will be others. Look at the world's reaction when we went to remove Hussein. Some people just never learn. :frown:
 
Another interesting article on the original topic...

He pulls no punches, which is not surprising. I hilighted what I considered the more important points. He made LOTS of them.

For the record, I went through the piece and replaced "Nato" with "NATO". An annoyance I didn't want to repeat here. Obssesive-compulsive, to be sure. :biggrin:

After Russia's invasion of Georgia, what now for the West?
By John R Bolton
Last Updated: 2:12PM BST 15 Aug 2008

At least for now, the smoke seems to be clearing from the Georgian battlefield. But the extent of the wreckage reaches far beyond that small country.

The US has delivered aid but no military support Russia’s invasion across an internationally recognised border, its thrashing of the Georgian military, and its smug satisfaction in humbling one of its former fiefdoms represents only the visible damage.

As bad as the bloodying of Georgia is, the broader consequences are worse. The United States fiddled while Georgia burned, not even reaching the right rhetorical level in its public statements until three days after the Russian invasion began, and not, at least to date, matching its rhetoric with anything even approximating decisive action. This pattern is the very definition of a paper tiger. Sending Secretary of State Condeleezza Rice to Tbilisi is touching, but hardly reassuring; dispatching humanitarian assistance is nothing more than we would have done if Georgia had been hit by a natural rather than a man-made disaster.

The European Union took the lead in diplomacy, with results approaching Neville Chamberlain’s moment in the spotlight at Munich: a ceasefire that failed to mention Georgia’s territorial integrity, and that all but gave Russia permission to continue its military operations as a “peacekeeping” force anywhere in Georgia. More troubling, over the long term, was that the EU saw its task as being mediator – its favourite role in the world – between Georgia and Russia, rather than an advocate for the victim of aggression.

Even this dismal performance was enough to relegate NATO to an entirely backstage role, while Russian tanks and planes slammed into a “faraway country”, as Chamberlain once observed so thoughtfully. In New York, paralysed by the prospect of a Russian veto, the UN Security Council, that Temple of the High-Minded, was as useless as it was during the Cold War. In fairness to Russia, it at least still seems to understand how to exercise power in the Council, which some other Permanent Members often appear to have forgotten.

The West, collectively, failed in this crisis. Georgia wasted its dime making that famous 3am telephone call to the White House, the one Hillary Clinton referred to in a campaign ad questioning Barack Obama’s fitness for the Presidency. Moreover, the blood on the Bear’s claws did not go unobserved in other states that were once part of the Soviet Union. Russia demonstrated unambiguously that it could have marched directly to Tbilisi and installed a puppet government before any Western leader was able to turn away from the Olympic Games. It could, presumably, do the same to them.

Fear was one reaction Russia wanted to provoke, and fear it has achieved, not just in the “Near Abroad” but in the capitals of Western Europe as well. But its main objective was hegemony, a hegemony it demonstrated by pledging to reconstruct Tskhinvali, the capital of its once and no-longer-future possession, South Ossetia. The contrast is stark: a real demonstration of using sticks and carrots, the kind that American and European diplomats only talk about. Moreover, Russia is now within an eyelash of dominating the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, the only route out of the Caspian Sea region not now controlled by either Russia or Iran. Losing this would be dramatically unhelpful if we hope for continued reductions in global petroleum prices, and energy independence from unfriendly, or potentially unfriendly, states.

It profits us little to blame Georgia for “provoking” the Russian attack. Nor is it becoming of the United States to have anonymous officials from its State Department telling reporters, as they did earlier this week, that they had warned Georgia not to provoke Russia. This confrontation is not about who violated the Marquess of Queensbury rules in South Ossetia, where ethnic violence has been a fact of life since the break-up of the Soviet Union on December 31, 1991 – and, indeed, long before. Instead, we are facing the much larger issue of how Russia plans to behave in international affairs for decades to come. Whether Mikhail Saakashvili “provoked” the Russians on August 8, or September 8, or whenever, this rape was well-planned and clearly coming, given Georgia’s manifest unwillingness to be “Finlandized” – the Cold War term for effectively losing your foreign-policy independence.

So, as an earlier Vladimir liked to say, “What is to be done?” There are three key focal points for restoring our credibility here in America: drawing a clear line for Russia; getting Europe’s attention; and checking our own intestinal fortitude. Whether history reflects Russia’s Olympic invasion as the first step toward recreating its empire depends – critically – on whether the Bush Administration can resurrect its once-strong will in its waning days, and on what US voters will do in the election in November. Europe also has a vital role – by which I mean the real Europe, its nation states, not the bureaucracies and endless councils in Brussels.

First, Russia has made it clear that it will not accept a vacuum between its borders and the boundary line of NATO membership. Since the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union collapsed, this has been a central question affecting successive NATO membership decisions, with the fear that nations in the “gap” between NATO and Russia would actually be more at risk of Russian aggression than if they joined NATO. The potential for instability and confrontation was evident.

Europe’s rejection this spring of President Bush’s proposal to start Ukraine and Georgia towards NATO membership was the real provocation to Russia, because it exposed Western weakness and timidity. As long as that perception exists in Moscow, the risk to other former Soviet territories – and in precarious regions such as the Middle East – will remain.

Obviously, not all former Soviet states are as critical to NATO as Ukraine, because of its size and strategic location, or Georgia, because of its importance to our access to the Caspian Basin’s oil and natural gas reserves. Moreover, not all of them meet fundamental NATO prerequisites. But we must now review our relationship with all of them. This, in effect, NATO failed to do after the Orange and Rose Revolutions, leaving us in our present untenable position.

By its actions in Georgia, Russia has made clear that its long-range objective is to fill that “gap” if we do not. That, as Western leaders like to say, is “unacceptable”. Accordingly, we should have a foreign-minister-level meeting of NATO to reverse the spring capitulation at Bucharest, and to decide that Georgia and Ukraine will be NATO’s next members. By drawing the line clearly, we are not provoking Russia, but doing just the opposite: letting them know that aggressive behaviour will result in costs that they will not want to bear, thus stabilising a critical seam between Russia and the West. In effect, we have already done this successfully with Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

Second, the United States needs some straight talk with our friends in Europe, which ideally should have taken place long before the assault on Georgia. To be sure, American inaction gave French President Sarkozy and the EU the chance to seize the diplomatic initiative. However, Russia did not invade Georgia with diplomats or roubles, but with tanks. This is a security threat, and the proper forum for discussing security threats on the border of a NATO member – yes, Europe, this means Turkey – is NATO.

Saying this may cause angst in Europe’s capitals, but now is the time to find out if NATO can withstand a potential renewed confrontation with Moscow, or whether Europe will cause NATO to wilt. Far better to discover this sooner rather than later, when the stakes may be considerably higher. If there were ever a moment since the fall of the Berlin Wall when Europe should be worried, this is it. If Europeans are not willing to engage through NATO, that tells us everything we need to know about the true state of health of what is, after all, supposedly a “North Atlantic” alliance.

Finally, the most important step will take place right here in the United States. With a Presidential election on November 4, Americans have an opportunity to take our own national pulse, given the widely differing reactions to Russia’s blitzkrieg from Senator McCain and (at least initially) Senator Obama. First reactions, before the campaigns’ pollsters and consultants get involved, are always the best indicators of a candidate’s real views. McCain at once grasped the larger, geostrategic significance of Russia’s attack, and the need for a strong response, whereas Obama at first sounded as timorous and tentative as the Bush Administration. Ironically, Obama later moved closer to McCain’s more robust approach, followed only belatedly by Bush.

In any event, let us have a full general election debate over the implications of Russia’s march through Georgia. Even before this incident, McCain had suggested expelling Russia from the G8; others have proposed blocking Russia’s application to join the World Trade Organisation or imposing economic sanctions as long as Russian troops remain in Georgia. Obama has assiduously avoided specifics in foreign policy – other than withdrawing speedily from Iraq – but that luxury should no longer be available to him. We need to know if Obama’s reprise of George McGovern’s 1972 campaign theme, “Come home, America”, is really what our voters want, or if we remain willing to persevere in difficult circumstances, as McCain has consistently advocated. Querulous Europe should hope, for its own sake, that America makes the latter choice.

John R Bolton is the former US Permanent Representative to the United Nations.
 
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