USAFA Cheating Scandal

Devil dog, I'm not too sure about the piling on stuff. But your comment about young people is spot on. It is important to remember that these are first year students and the honor boards do take time under the honor system into consideration. i.e. a first year is treated completely differently than a 4th year. At the time this infraction occurred these first year cadets had been under the honor code for about 6 months. So there is reason for the academy to look at them differently.

Compare this to a situation at one of the service academies in the 1990's that involved about 134 Seniors who were involved with stealing a test and some were selling it. That is a very different situation than what just happened at USAFA where it appears that the cadets in question did something that was very impulsive but did not involve collusion or premeditation. Only 24 of the seniors in the 1990's case were expelled, the rest got some sort of administrative punishment, loss of certain privileges, or there was no finding by the honor boards. But that case also revealed that there is a problem with the honor board being reluctant to take action against so many of their fellows and this forced the intervention of the very upper levels of the command structure to intervene. It was situations like these that forced the academies to reform their honor systems so that they can be more effective in making findings without enforcing a mandatory sentence that many were reluctant to uphold. So I do not agree with the idea that this is some sort of PC, gentler/kinder USAFA honor code. Rather, I think it reflects the best attempts at using an honor code that seeks to find justice and encourage honor than simply retribution.
 
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DevilDog said:
It's funny, but, I get the sense certain posters on here love to pile on when one of the other academies get hit with some sort of infraction. I notice they tend to post negative articles, etc. All the academies have had their share of mistakes. One of my friends was kicked out of Annapolis in his senior year for bringing booze and women into Bancroft.
The point is these are young people, in this case, most were first year students. They made a mistake, from what I understand, they will be taking the course over. What are they going to do disenroll over 300 students?
I tend to wonder if the posters that pile on some of the academies are not a little jealous of those academies?
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Jealous in what way?
 
DevilDog said:
It's funny, but, I get the sense certain posters on here love to pile on when one of the other academies get hit with some sort of infraction. I notice they tend to post negative articles, etc. All the academies have had their share of mistakes. One of my friends was kicked out of Annapolis in his senior year for bringing booze and women into Bancroft.
The point is these are young people, in this case, most were first year students. They made a mistake, from what I understand, they will be taking the course over. What are they going to do disenroll over 300 students?
I tend to wonder if the posters that pile on some of the academies are not a little jealous of those academies?
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If it makes you feel any better, I would have liked stricter punishment at CGA for honor violations as well. Most (or is it safer to say many) got the boot. Some didn't. Some, of those got the boot the next time they have an honor violation.


I'm not convinced honor can be built or developed. You've got it, or you do... but maybe I'm looking at it too black and white. Admitting you made a mistake after you were caught doesn't show you're honorable, just shows you're not brain dead (or a Congressman).
 
I don't think we are going to change each other's minds on this. But there is some biblical saying about sin and casting stones. We really do not know all of the facts, we do not even know if what we hear is completely accurate (most likely not), perhaps most of these cadets involved do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, but I am certain that those people who have been given the responsibility to do so are trying to do their best to find a just solution. Perhaps we should leave it at that.
 
HMM, what does this mean?

"We Will Not Lie, Steal Or Cheat, Nor Tolerate Among Us Anyone Who Does"

Seems like the cadet needs to be elite in all areas of life, not just academics and sports, but ethically too.

If their guilty, cut them! It's good for the budget, good for moral and wakes everyone up to how serious Mottos should be. This is the military, short cuts get people killed.
 
Are state colleges and universities supported by public dollars? If that is the only rationale, then we need to take a closer look at those institutions as well. My understanding is that in a recent study 53% of college students self report that they have engaged in some sort of academic dishonesty at some point during college. I don't know what to make of any of this, but as Deming once said simple solutions for complex problems are almost never correct.

My suggestion is not to ignore what happened but rather to trust the process and the people involved (Gen Gould and the Cadet Honor Boards) to make an informed and correct decision. Since none of us here are truly informed and do not have this task to bear, let us show some measure of respect to those who do.
 
falconfamily said:
Are state colleges and universities supported by public dollars? If that is the only rationale, then we need to take a closer look at those institutions as well.
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I agree. Especially if I'm paying their students to go there.... like we do with USCGA, USMA, USNA, USMMA and USAFA.

That's the fun part. Want to wear the uniform? Want to go to school for "free"? Great! Remember it's the public you serve, and the public you ultimately answer to.

I don't care what Ohio State does... I don't pay taxes that support that school. Would I care is VCU had a cheating scandal? Well if it involved state kids going to school on the VA tax payer time, I say give 'em the boot.
 
I'm glad that USAFA is not cut and dry with honor cases. As a cadet, my squadron had its share of honor cases. One slipped through (with an honor offense) but was ultimately booted by the efforts of us in the squadron. However, I can think of three specific individuals that had honor charges against them during their 4 dig years entering into their 3 dig years. One went on to be a senior BCT cadre, the wind command chief, and perhaps the most respected individual in his class (2008). His experience humbled him and he became an outstanding leader who is continuing on as such in the USAF. Another two I knew recently graduated (2012). One was a friend of mine long before the incident and we are close friends now. She went through a particularly rough time as a 4 dig (parents separated....one started doing hard drugs) and most did not know this in their snap judgments of her. The Comm chose to give her a second chance after she took a year off. I'm extremely proud of her and she brought a lot of joy to the squadron and became an incredible mentor for many in 2012-2015. Another guy also came in with an honor incident, made it through becoming the senior honor officer for the wing last year and graduated as a DG. There were those who didn't learn and most ended up booted for one reason or another.

I'm glad many were retained as their experience transformed them into amazing people. Much credit also must go to the squadrons where people like this were rehabilitated as they gave them a chance, held them to their responsibilities, and treated them accordingly after the probation period if they held up their end of the bargain. I'd rather see a few slip through than potentially lose the amazing individuals I have seen graduate.

I second the notion that we don't know everything about each person that is accused. (Would you be so judging if you knew they went through their family being destroyed at the ripe old age of 18?)
 
hornetguy said:
I second the notion that we don't know everything about each person that is accused. (Would you be so judging if you knew they went through their family being destroyed at the ripe old age of 18?)
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If you lie, cheat, steal or attempt to deceive you should burn. I don't care how sad people would be.
 
hornetguy said:
I'm glad that USAFA is not cut and dry with honor cases. As a cadet, my squadron had its share of honor cases. One slipped through (with an honor offense) but was ultimately booted by the efforts of us in the squadron. However, I can think of three specific individuals that had honor charges against them during their 4 dig years entering into their 3 dig years. One went on to be a senior BCT cadre, the wind command chief, and perhaps the most respected individual in his class (2008). His experience humbled him and he became an outstanding leader who is continuing on as such in the USAF. Another two I knew recently graduated (2012). One was a friend of mine long before the incident and we are close friends now. She went through a particularly rough time as a 4 dig (parents separated....one started doing hard drugs) and most did not know this in their snap judgments of her. The Comm chose to give her a second chance after she took a year off. I'm extremely proud of her and she brought a lot of joy to the squadron and became an incredible mentor for many in 2012-2015. Another guy also came in with an honor incident, made it through becoming the senior honor officer for the wing last year and graduated as a DG. There were those who didn't learn and most ended up booted for one reason or another.

I'm glad many were retained as their experience transformed them into amazing people. Much credit also must go to the squadrons where people like this were rehabilitated as they gave them a chance, held them to their responsibilities, and treated them accordingly after the probation period if they held up their end of the bargain. I'd rather see a few slip through than potentially lose the amazing individuals I have seen graduate.

I second the notion that we don't know everything about each person that is accused. (Would you be so judging if you knew they went through their family being destroyed at the ripe old age of 18?)
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Well said Hornet, I often wonder how such legendary leaders like Robin Olds might have fared. He was walking tours until a half hour before graduation, stripped of rank as an upperclassman Olds was a clean sleeve at West Point. Great leaders are not always the model cadet. Those people you speak of are truly inspirational examples.
 
MemberLG said:
The AFA has an honor code. That doesn't mean you create opportunties for cadets to committ honor violation. What's wrong a traditional written test administered in a classroom? what's wrong with a open book take home test with no collarboration where the actual answer choices are not available on the internet?

Why administer a test
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I think one of the things that continues to blow my mind at West Point and shows me how special the Academy continues to be is the fact that our professors don't feel the need to sit in the classroom and hover over us while we're taking our exams. They will hand us our exams and leave, coming back in an hour to call time. If we need them, we have to go out into the hallway to find them.

This would include on the various exams and finals I have done which were on a laptop, fully functional with internet connection and all my course notes. For an exam such as history or math, that would be an insanely easy way to cheat.

The understanding though is, you just don't use them. If you cheat in any fashion, you have broken the honor code. Its not on the professor in the slightest to cater to not helping you break the code, nor should it be. The dishonoring yourself through cheating or lying nowhere near meets the rewards of a few extra points on a test or quiz.

I get at a different university, that wouldn't be the same way, but that's the kind of thing that the Academy is going for. I won't comment on the USAFA's ability for their own policing of honor, because that's not something I know enough about. I just think that its kinda ridiculous to put ownership on professors for something that in the end you're accountable for. If you can't be honest with yourself, how are others ever supposed to be able to trust you?
 
DevilDog said:
It's funny, but, I get the sense certain posters on here love to pile on when one of the other academies get hit with some sort of infraction. I notice they tend to post negative articles, etc. All the academies have had their share of mistakes. One of my friends was kicked out of Annapolis in his senior year for bringing booze and women into Bancroft.
The point is these are young people, in this case, most were first year students. They made a mistake, from what I understand, they will be taking the course over. What are they going to do disenroll over 300 students?
I tend to wonder if the posters that pile on some of the academies are not a little jealous of those academies?
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I think all academies have their own problems and challenges. Anyone on this board is free to post whatever news they find. Perhaps, a SA does a better job influencing the media, but what's on the news is what's on the news. As far as I know there is only one SA has a movie about its students cheating.

Yes people make mistakes, but at what point/age those mistakes are unacceptable. I was a member of honor board back in 1993 or 4. I think we deliberated about 6 hours before making our decision. I don't know what happens at other SAs, but the honor board I was a member of, we considered everything before making our recommendation.

As for disenrolling over 300,

As of August 11, 1976, the internal review panel had looked into 235 cases arising from the take-home examination, including the original 117. By December 6, 134 cadets had resigned or had been separated in another manner from the academy for cheating on the problem. The rest presumably were not found guilty and retained their positions within their class
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http://www.west-point.org/publications/aba_article.html
 
Case by case by case ...

Justice, Mercy and Redemption are just as important as the rule of law.

But the Rule Of Law must come first.

If Mercy is to be meted out, it must be clear that repentance is sincere, that redemption is possible and that every observer knows, the rules are not flexible.
 
Don said:
Justice, Mercy and Redemption are just as important as the rule of law.

But the Rule Of Law must come first.

If Mercy is to be meted out, it must be clear that repentance is sincere, that redemption is possible and that every observer knows, the rules are not flexible.
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Don, I can completely agree with you on this. Let this be judged case by case and carefully considered by those with all of the facts.
 
As parents of young men and women in uniform, try to view it not from the angle of your kids committing an honor offense, but from the angle of whether or not you'd want the life of your child entrusted to the care of a superior who cannot be trusted to do the right thing when no one is looking. Would you want the life you created to be in the hands of someone whose discriminator between right and wrong is whether or not they'll get caught?
 
scoutpilot said:
No, it's not honorable. It's knowing you're caught and fessing up because it brings leniency.

Honor is not cheating in the first place. Honor is cheating, NOT getting caught, and turning yourself in anyway because your mistake was so disgusting to your sense of honor that you couldn't let your transgression go unknown. Honor is not cheating, getting caught, and then admitting it. That's just avoiding committing ANOTHER violation by not lying or equivocating about committing your first.
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Well; I'm glad there are honorable people like you who when you speed in your car or go through a red light, you find a police officer and tell him/her that you did it.

Your 2nd paragraph above states perfectly why it ISN'T so cut and dry. You said: "Honor is NOT cheating in the first place"..... However, but, maybe, perhaps, by chance, etc... you DO CHEAT; then it's honorable if you turn yourself in BEFORE getting caught. Is that like "Losing salvation, then regaining it"? So, if you don't cheat, you're honorable. If you DO cheat, you ARE NO LONGER honorable. HOWEVER: If you fess up prior to anyone catching you or turning you in, you can REGAIN your honor.

And you really think the honor code, every infraction, and every discipline action is that clear cut? The honor code for army and air force says: We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does. "Variation for army". So; if a cadet did something illegal, but didn't include stealing or cheating; and No One asked him/her about it, so they didn't have to LIE; they would still be "Honorable" if they didn't confess or turn themselves in for the offense? If you can't see that "HONOR" is not as clear cut as you want to make it out to be, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Is it "Honorable" to slander a fellow cadet? Set another cadet up for failure? Abstain from helping out a fellow cadet? Is any of that "Honorable"? Yet, they didn't lie, steal, or cheat. I guess they are then honorable. Excellent team spirit. Sorry; but it's not that clear cut. Not the way you want it to be.
 
scoutpilot said:
As parents of young men and women in uniform, try to view it not from the angle of your kids committing an honor offense, but from the angle of whether or not you'd want the life of your child entrusted to the care of a superior who cannot be trusted to do the right thing when no one is looking. Would you want the life you created to be in the hands of someone whose discriminator between right and wrong is whether or not they'll get caught?
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That is very well said. I tend to be a little on the forgiving side. In another instance at the Academy, I felt restitution would be fine. My son said to me, would you really want someone that makes a mistake in judgement like that be an officer in the Air Force? My son tends to be rigid because he understands what he represents and what is on the line.
 
I'm glad for the leaders at USAFA and their judgment on honor than what some on here would feel so entitled to hand out in their cut and dry judgment. I wouldn't simply be sad these people wouldn't have completed USAFA but I would have mourned the USAF for having lost such competent, motivating, and exceptional leaders.
 
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