USCG has no fat to cut

Reading is a luxury I rarely enjoy these days so I can't comment on Mr. Freidman's work.

I digress a bit but I think though that you are looking at it with a little bit of tunnel vision. I refer to President Eisenhower's farewell address where he warned of the Mlitary-Industrial complex. The man was a prophet, I've been in this area about 15 years and have noticed the trend ... the division between the public and private sector is shrinking.

Add 1 hour of commute (one way) and suddenly you'll have PLENTY of reading time... and that's when the Red Line works.

It's interesting you would cite Eisenhower, a man who benefited from a centralized WWII planning (and not just in the military). It's far easier to warn of a complex once you've finished benefiting from it.

That said, it was always interesting to me how we would complain about waste in the federal government, while we were paid by it. Honestly, within your organization, I'm sure you could write a novel on the amount of waste at HHS. My wife probably could too. And so could I about the Coast Guard, or even better, DHS....

But imagine the waste surrounding my federal employment. The healthcare I received, the benefits I "earned," my training, my travel, heck, my education! All aspects of my employment had elements of waste. So do yours, still. And yet, I complained at the same time. And my wife complains. But all of that compaining didn't stop me from taking the money, accepting the higher priced commercial flights, compliments of federal travel offices to conferences are non-centrally located offices. I enjoyed lunch in the Pentagon's overdone food court. I used SmartBenefits for travel in the DC area. I moved from duty station to duty station with contracted movers who brag about the extra time they take to move members of the military because the government pays.

And yet.... with all that waste, and all that compaining, and all of the obvious issues. I still took the money. And so do you.

If there's anything that should scare you about the state of this country, or the state of our economy... it can be summed up there... I take when it's given, and so do you.

We are part of the problem, we know we are part of the problem and we do nothing about it.... except say we're part of the problem, and that there is, in fact a problem.

At the end of the day, how does a broken Coast Guard affect you? Well, it means there's less likelihood someone will find you when you need to be found (or will at least search), that the correct fish species are being caught (and being caught by American boats....CANADA!), that a buoy will PROBABLY be where it's supposed to be, that dGPS is working, that ice will be broken on rivers, oil spills cleaned, migrants interdicted, etc.

And while we all know these things COULD happen, but would likely not effect us directly..... we will do nothing about it, except post articles and debate how wasteful a service of 40,000 folks patrolling or regulating 96,000 sq. miles of coastline and inland waterways....

Yes, there is a 4-star Washington, D.C., who COULD stay something, but he may be too concern about those stars to say it.

And there's a President in the White House who wouldn't know the difference, either way, until it affects approvals, another disaster has his name on it or polling tells him it's important.

So we can certainly say the Coast Guard wastes more than private institutions, even if we agree they are more efficient than many federal agencies. And we can be bothered by the waste at all levels of government (while still taking the government's money), but at the end of the day, principles and values won't build a cutter or a helicopter or a fixed-wing aircraft. Principles and values won't help you monitor for distress calls or man watches.

If we want the Coast Guard to break, or disappear, then we're at the point that it should. But when it does go away, we also need to be ready for the consequences of it.
 
Add 1 hour of commute (one way) and suddenly you'll have PLENTY of reading time... and that's when the Red Line works.

It's interesting you would cite Eisenhower, a man who benefited from a centralized WWII planning (and not just in the military). It's far easier to warn of a complex once you've finished benefiting from it.

That said, it was always interesting to me how we would complain about waste in the federal government, while we were paid by it. Honestly, within your organization, I'm sure you could write a novel on the amount of waste at HHS. My wife probably could too. And so could I about the Coast Guard, or even better, DHS....

But imagine the waste surrounding my federal employment. The healthcare I received, the benefits I "earned," my training, my travel, heck, my education! All aspects of my employment had elements of waste. So do yours, still. And yet, I complained at the same time. And my wife complains. But all of that compaining didn't stop me from taking the money, accepting the higher priced commercial flights, compliments of federal travel offices to conferences are non-centrally located offices. I enjoyed lunch in the Pentagon's overdone food court. I used SmartBenefits for travel in the DC area. I moved from duty station to duty station with contracted movers who brag about the extra time they take to move members of the military because the government pays.

And yet.... with all that waste, and all that compaining, and all of the obvious issues. I still took the money. And so do you.

If there's anything that should scare you about the state of this country, or the state of our economy... it can be summed up there... I take when it's given, and so do you.

We are part of the problem, we know we are part of the problem and we do nothing about it.... except say we're part of the problem, and that there is, in fact a problem.

At the end of the day, how does a broken Coast Guard affect you? Well, it means there's less likelihood someone will find you when you need to be found (or will at least search), that the correct fish species are being caught (and being caught by American boats....CANADA!), that a buoy will PROBABLY be where it's supposed to be, that dGPS is working, that ice will be broken on rivers, oil spills cleaned, migrants interdicted, etc.

And while we all know these things COULD happen, but would likely not effect us directly..... we will do nothing about it, except post articles and debate how wasteful a service of 40,000 folks patrolling or regulating 96,000 sq. miles of coastline and inland waterways....

Yes, there is a 4-star Washington, D.C., who COULD stay something, but he may be too concern about those stars to say it.

And there's a President in the White House who wouldn't know the difference, either way, until it affects approvals, another disaster has his name on it or polling tells him it's important.

So we can certainly say the Coast Guard wastes more than private institutions, even if we agree they are more efficient than many federal agencies. And we can be bothered by the waste at all levels of government (while still taking the government's money), but at the end of the day, principles and values won't build a cutter or a helicopter or a fixed-wing aircraft. Principles and values won't help you monitor for distress calls or man watches.

If we want the Coast Guard to break, or disappear, then we're at the point that it should. But when it does go away, we also need to be ready for the consequences of it.

Au contraire mon frère

I TOOK it yes, but I no longer do. I got fed up and I left. I saw the insanity of it and I chose the red pill.

Despite that ever-shrinking gap, I actually work in the totally private sector (one of the few people in NOVA who actually do) I don't work for the government, I'm not in the military and I don't work for a beltway bandit either. I have however, done all three. Yes, I figured out how to make fuller use of those benefits while staying within the regulations and enjoyed the comfort of that secure lifestyle. I've held senior positions within program offices, I have the highest DAWIA certification one can get from DAU, I've served on major staffs in both operations and readiness. I also had my come-to-Jesus moment and I made my choice. I suppose by some coincidence, I managed to reach a point where when I looked back I could see the big picture and I saw how it was ALL connected. Very enlightening, but I also saw how deeply and pervasive "the hive mind" had reached and I saw the wizard behind the curtain. I punched out and have never been happier.

BTW ... I never worked for HHS, I only use them as an example in light of the healthcare.gov fiasco. That train wreck did not surprise me one iota.

ABTW ... I also commute over an hour but I don't think my fellow commuters would appreciate me reading while driving down 66.
 
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Au contraire mon frère

I TOOK it yes, but I no longer do. I got fed up and I left. I saw the insanity of it and I chose the red pill.

Despite that ever-shrinking gap, I actually work in the totally private sector (one of the few people in NOVA who actually do) I don't work for the government, I'm not in the military and I don't work for a beltway bandit either. I have however, done all three. Yes, I figured out how to make fuller use of those benefits while staying within the regulations and enjoyed the comfort of that secure lifestyle. I've held senior positions within program offices, I have the highest DAWIA certification one can get from DAU, I've served on major staffs in both operations and readiness. I also had my come-to-Jesus moment and I made my choice. I suppose by some coincidence, I managed to reach a point where when I looked back I could see the big picture and I saw how it was ALL connected. Very enlightening, but I also saw how deeply and pervasive "the hive mind" had reached and I saw the wizard behind the curtain. I punched out and have never been happier.

BTW ... I never worked for HHS, I only use them as an example in light of the healthcare.gov fiasco. That train wreck did not surprise me one iota.

ABTW ... I also commute over an hour but I don't think my fellow commuters would appreciate me reading while driving down 66.

Ah! I think I saw HHS and immediately associated someone else's profile on here with you.

I would love to know what your "come to Jesus" moment was.

As far as 66 is concerned, they won't notice you reading; they're too busy, putting on make-up, shaving or reading...

And the website was no surprised. Same kind of political thinking without regard to reality happened during the Deepwater Horizon oil spill response and DHS.
 
Government agencies always seem to have waste, abuse, and cronyism. I not comfortable wagging my finger at the CG as being any better or worse than similar organizations. But aren't we talking about capital equipment modernization and what's required to accomplish the mission? This is different from day to day operational efficiency.

Here's a parallel with an AF program. The A10 is under attack, top down. The mission is close air support. We can reduce the number of aircraft, and this will save some money. If we really want to save money, we should eliminate the entire program, because far greater savings will come from eliminating the support structure behind this program. As to the mission... we have F16s and eventually F35s. This sounds kind of silly, doesn't it? As to the CG, well, we can save some money by limiting modernization. We can save a lot more money by eliminating the entire organization. As to the mission... we have Homeland Security and some other resources that will be easier to control and shape. This sounds silly, too, but we have a interesting bunch in charge!

Just my two cents worth.
 
Government agencies always seem to have waste, abuse, and cronyism. I not comfortable wagging my finger at the CG as being any better or worse than similar organizations. But aren't we talking about capital equipment modernization and what's required to accomplish the mission? This is different from day to day operational efficiency.

Here's a parallel with an AF program. The A10 is under attack, top down. The mission is close air support. We can reduce the number of aircraft, and this will save some money. If we really want to save money, we should eliminate the entire program, because far greater savings will come from eliminating the support structure behind this program. As to the mission... we have F16s and eventually F35s. This sounds kind of silly, doesn't it? As to the CG, well, we can save some money by limiting modernization. We can save a lot more money by eliminating the entire organization. As to the mission... we have Homeland Security and some other resources that will be easier to control and shape. This sounds silly, too, but we have a interesting bunch in charge!

Just my two cents worth.

A better question to ask what is AF's responsibility to conduct "close air support." I am no expert on the politics of the close air support, but my understanding is that the Army and Air Force went back and forth on who is responsible for close air support and corresponding resources. For example, why does Army fly C 23 Sherpa aircraft instead of AF? Who determines how many C 130 vs C 17 air forces needs?
 
A better question to ask what is AF's responsibility to conduct "close air support." I am no expert on the politics of the close air support, but my understanding is that the Army and Air Force went back and forth on who is responsible for close air support and corresponding resources. For example, why does Army fly C 23 Sherpa aircraft instead of AF? Who determines how many C 130 vs C 17 air forces needs?

Well, do you have about 4 hours? If so, I can gladly explain it, and why the AF is making force cuts. But let's start with your last question.

Who determines how many C-130s and C-17s the AF needs? Well, the Ultimate answer is: the COCOMs (the Combatant Commanders, such as CENTCOM, PACOM, etc.). They develop the war plans, and from there the Army determines how many troops and how much equipment they need to move to support it. But these two aircraft are the ones used for inter-continental (i.e. operational / regional airlift). The Army also says how much they need moved intra-continentally (between regions), and for that we can determine how many strategic airlift assets (like the C-5) we need.

The same can be said for how much CAS the COCOM requests the AF provide. It ultimately is the overall campaign commander that says how much od what types of missions he / she needs, and the AF places enough assetson the Air Tasking Order to support it.

But let's talk about the other question: why is the AF considering retiring the A-10 fleet? Simple answer again. It is NOT because they expect the F-35 replace the A-10. It is because the AF has to find money to save the entire Combat Air Forces (the CAF -- every plane, satellite, Air Operations Center, Cyber warfar center, etc, we own). Do we hate to have to do it? You bet. The A-10 is the best CAS asset out there, bar none (and he waits for Scout to reply to THAT! But he would be wrong. :biggrin:). But the fact remains it is ONLY for CAS, a single mission asset, and we have a bunch of other assets out there that can do CAS, although not as well as the A-10. It's ultimately cheaper to retire an entire fleet than piece meals of all the fleets, plain and simple.
 
Say what you want about how wasteful you think the CG is but they've been responsible enough with their resources to keep ships that are 50+ years old running and conducting missions. I couldn't tell you how that compares to private sector shipping companies but I'm sure it's pretty close to competing. At some point though you can't keep them floating and they need replacement.
 
Say what you want about how wasteful you think the CG is but they've been responsible enough with their resources to keep ships that are 50+ years old running and conducting missions. I couldn't tell you how that compares to private sector shipping companies but I'm sure it's pretty close to competing. At some point though you can't keep them floating and they need replacement.

T38-Talon-Edwards-01.jpg


b52-bomb.jpg


c130_4.jpg


KC-135_Stratotanker_Aerial_Refueling_Aircraft.jpg
 

We've got some of these too haha. But I think maintaining aircraft is a lot easier than maintain ships-it's much cheaper to upgrade and replace parts, for one thing. And they take a lot less environmental abuse.
 
We've got some of these too haha. But I think maintaining aircraft is a lot easier than maintain ships-it's much cheaper to upgrade and replace parts, for one thing. And they take a lot less environmental abuse.

Erm, not that we need to have a d*ck measuring contest on SAF regarding old sh*t, but I'm not sure a plane can last longer than a ship. The environment can be rough too (even if not salt water), pressurization cycles tax the structure, and once that wing spar reaches its life - no amount of upgrades elsewhere can salvage the plane. I'm no mech engineer or anywhere near that educated on the topic though. Regardless - just saying the age argument is spurious IMO.
 
Look the Coast Guard recently retired a ship that was in service before the Air Force existed.... I think we know how this measures out. I don't think the service with the biggest R&D budget wants to play the "look how underfunded we are." The Coast Guard has no $2 billion ships.
 
Is there waste, fraud & abuse in government? Absolutely! The examples are obvious to any who care to look. But the question I ask my "small government" friends is: What is the legitimate role of government and how much are you willing to pay for it? You'll probably not be very surprised when I say they don't have a cogent answer. It's a tough question because as you peel back the layers we'll all draw that line in a slightly different place.

And LITS: as much as you want to place all of the blame on the POTUS, it's Congress that determines the USCG's ship building budget. But you knew that of course...
 
Is there waste, fraud & abuse in government? Absolutely! The examples are obvious to any who care to look. But the question I ask my "small government" friends is: What is the legitimate role of government and how much are you willing to pay for it? You'll probably not be very surprised when I say they don't have a cogent answer. It's a tough question because as you peel back the layers we'll all draw that line in a slightly different place.

And LITS: as much as you want to place all of the blame on the POTUS, it's Congress that determines the USCG's ship building budget. But you knew that of course...

You of course realizes the President proposes a budget. What you may not realize is Obama's proposed CG budget has always been lower than the final Congressional budget.... I assume you knew that.
 
But the question I ask my "small government" friends is: What is the legitimate role of government and how much are you willing to pay for it? You'll probably not be very surprised when I say they don't have a cogent answer.

That would surprise me, actually. Small government folks tend to be pretty clear on what is right and wrong, in their eyes, with how big government should be.

National defense? Sure. Safety? Sure. HUD? Huh?


And I bet they could give you a pretty clear idea of parts of the government that could be cut, or should never have existed (because they can be performed by the private sector at a fraction of the cost and with more efficiency.
 
That would surprise me, actually. Small government folks tend to be pretty clear on what is right and wrong, in their eyes, with how big government should be.

National defense? Sure. Safety? Sure. HUD? Huh?


And I bet they could give you a pretty clear idea of parts of the government that could be cut, or should never have existed (because they can be performed by the private sector at a fraction of the cost and with more efficiency.

... or lie beyond the purview of the federal government according to the Constitution.
 
. . . What is the legitimate role of government and how much are you willing to pay for it?

The reality is we don't decide anything. Some might argue by voting for elected officials citizens decide the legitimate role of the government. I respectfully disagree. I heard one of my Senators stating something along the line that hoe votes based on what voters want AND what he thinks is best for the people. I can't direct how my taxes will be spent.
 
You of course realizes the President proposes a budget. What you may not realize is Obama's proposed CG budget has always been lower than the final Congressional budget.... I assume you knew that.

So we're in agreement that the Congress determined the budget amount for the CG. Any shortcomings then rest on them - do they not?

Regarding the role of government -the devil dwells in the details. It's easy to say cut this function or wipe out that whole agency but when you disect it it becomes more difficult. Particularly for politicians who get elected based on bringing home the bacon. Cut the Dept of Transportation? Sure, but only after that new freeway in my district is complete.
 
So we're in agreement that the Congress determined the budget amount for the CG. Any shortcomings then rest on them - do they not?

The reality of the process in 2013 is, the President submits a budget (recently... not on time) and Congress votes, moves things around, etc.

Shortcomings certainy rest on Congress, but if we look at it, through the entire process, Congress has "saved" the Coast Guard from even bigger desired cuts from the Obama admininstration. That doesn't mean Congress has done enough, but they have saved some of the damage of Obama administration decisions.
 
Regarding the role of government -the devil dwells in the details. It's easy to say cut this function or wipe out that whole agency but when you disect it it becomes more difficult. Particularly for politicians who get elected based on bringing home the bacon. Cut the Dept of Transportation? Sure, but only after that new freeway in my district is complete.
This is the problem. We let them use our money to buy our votes.
 
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