USMA Separated & Recoupment

Corn-chowder_x15 said:
I’ll just be financially destitute for a long time until I can cash out on my 401k early to pay the remaining balance off. I’m probably one of the few people in the world to go to an elite school, get a degree in mechanical engineering, work for one of the largest medical diagnostics companies in the world, and still not have enough money to my name to rent a $400 studio apartment. Ive been living with my grandparents so I can care for my grandfather with Alzheimer’s
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...And then there's this guy:

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/...ned-for-lying-during-child-porn-investigation

Still, despite his years of unblemished service, Ciccarella’s superiors have said he could be court martialed, said his defense attorney Michael Salnick.

How Sad!

The longer my DS is in the service the more shocked I am at the capriciousness with which the Military handles these various situations. If any of the current or aspiring cadets/mids think that it ends at commissioning, they shouldn't.
 
Yes, technically he could still be court-martialed, but the Service cannot duplicate charges he was charged and found guilty of in the civilian jurisdiction. Once the civilian phase has finished, the Service could administratively separate with an unfavorable form of admin discharge, or they could choose to court-martial him on UCMJ charges such as what is commonly called “conduct unbecoming” or “bringing discredit to the service” type of catch-all charges. If found guilty of those, a punitive discharge could be awarded, along with other penalties. The Service has dealt with its service members committing crimes in civilian jurisdictions for many, many years, and it will draw on the facts of the case and precedent to arrive at what is best for the Service.
 
Corn-chowder_x15 said:
Whoever you are Rando123 - congratulations on getting the help you needed and for overcoming your personal demons.

I’m in sort of the same boat as you. Dropped for an academic board two days before graduation (was going to be class of 2015). Finished college two years later (another financial pain) now have a fantastic job making really good money...so I could not claim financial hardship. Unfortunately I have reached all dead ends with ways to lower my payments. They wanted all the money in the next four years ($289,941.99). They have been keeping my tax returns since 2015 as well. They would not let me request lower payments so I’m chunking out 6 grand every month. I don’t want to even talk to the DFAS people, lawyers, anyone connected to that world because I cannot get sucked back into it for my own sanity. I’d rather bite the bullet and take it up the tailpipe until they leave me alone. I refused to enlist for personal issues with how things were handled within the army. I went through legal battles for 2 years after my separation to get back in and all were not successful and pushed me into a dark place in my life. Literally the plan was to just shoot myself in the face and leave a check for the full amount taped to my corpse...but I was fortunate to get the mental help I needed. And I am embarrassed to admit that I was that broken by this whole ordeal. The academy was everything to me and I put way too much stock in that making me happy. When it went away I thought I was worthless. I never had any disciplinary actions taken against me as a cadet besides walking 5 hours for being late to class. I just struggled with a rigorous major and didn’t use all my resources early on and didn’t ask for help. I made one D senior year and that board did me in (I had one academic board previously Yuk year).

BLUF: recoupment is a sticky mess that I can’t get around. I’ll just be financially destitute for a long time until I can cash out on my 401k early to pay the remaining balance off. I’m probably one of the few people in the world to go to an elite school, get a degree in mechanical engineering, work for one of the largest medical diagnostics companies in the world, and still not have enough money to my name to rent a $400 studio apartment. Ive been living with my grandparents so I can care for my grandfather with Alzheimer’s and I have the best fiancé in the world. She’d walk through hellfire and spit in Satan’s soup if I asked her to. She saved my life. It’s not ideal but better than some folks have it. Life will keep kicking you when you’re down but you can find happiness if you know where to look. No problem I encounter can break me anymore. I’m going to be finically set once I pay this off so it will be ok.

I just joined this forum so I don’t know if you can PM me but If you ever need someone to talk to or just shoot the breeze I’m here for you always!
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Corn Chowder, I haven't been here in years but just popped in and saw your post from 2019. I posted about my son's situation a decade ago with disenrollment. Did you get any relief from the debt at all?

We have battled DFAS for 9 years and his issue was about a weight standard that he failed 3 weeks before NROTC commissioning and enlistment. Were there other issues that led to it? In hindsight, probably - but he didn't see it at the time.
 
Gojira said:
Corn Chowder, I haven't been here in years but just popped in and saw your post from 2019. I posted about my son's situation a decade ago with disenrollment. Did you get any relief from the debt at all?

We have battled DFAS for 9 years and his issue was about a weight standard that he failed 3 weeks before NROTC commissioning and enlistment. Were there other issues that led to it? In hindsight, probably - but he didn't see it at the time.
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Corn chowder hasn't been on the forum since making that post.
 
Let’s start by acknowledging that the military is not fair. A field grade officer at least gets a hearing. A cadet or mid who gets crosswise is pretty much toast.

My Dad and my father in law were USMA and USNA respectively. Korea and WW2, They looked back on their careers later, one an 08, and saw as grown ups, how badly we as a country deal with mistakes kids make.

My son turned a paper in late grad week because his girl was in surgery in another state and he left post with pass. But the paper was late and an 06 wanted him dead.

The 06 got him kicked out faster than he kept getting readmitted…..a week before grad, and my Dads 65th reunion.

He did AMP as Armor E4, SF called and he put in a flight packet and nailed it. Debt paid as enlisted. His mom, the Admirals daughter, couldn’t accept his being a warrant.

USMA graduated and rebranched him Aviation. He flys Apaches. In my opinion, West didn’t take him back because he had paid his dues.

They took him back because JSOC tagged an enlisted USMA washout as a star. That would have been embarrassing to the Academy.

So to answer your question. West Point is all about maintaining the legend. Won’t keep kids who might embarrass them. Quarterbacks excepted. If you do get in trouble there, it’s hard, but it’s yet another test or character:

Point is

1 it’s not over, until it’s over
2 the debt can be paid through service
3 the cream rises. An 04,5,6,7 is not the voice of god….though they think they are.

If your heart is to serve the country and it’s people, do not let West Point keep from your heart.

It will take care of itself.
 
I am an ex-Cadet (2017). I was separated my Firstie year, and have struggled to generate sufficient sources of information pertaining to the financial recoupment process. Some of the specifics of my case are as follows:
  1. Separated post-Affirmation.
  2. General under honorable conditions discharge.
  3. Denied the option of military service to pay back my educational expenses.
  4. Informed that financial recoupment is the method through which I will be required to pay the US Department of the Treasury back for my educational expenses.
I've reached out to local government agencies, congressmen/women, sought legal counsel (Both while at West Point and privately after separation), contacted USMA TDS, but have still yet to find any sort of succinct set of rules / regulations on this particular process.

The exact dollar amount of my financial recoupment was in dispute shortly after my separation was finalized, based on the advice of my legal counsel at the Academy, and the outstanding debt was then sent to collections. The crediting agency issued a pretty staggering interest rate on top of the already $250k+ bill for my time at the Academy, so this has pushed it to a point where this number will be quite insurmountable for the foreseeable future (Please note that I am not presenting this information to make this into a woe-is-me type of situation; rather, I want to ensure that I'm providing enough detailed information so that in the event that there is someone on this forum who has been through this process, he/she can provide insight on the specifics of my particular case.)

The financial dispute pertaining to my recoupment is still on-going, and correspondence with the collections agency / US Department of the Treasury has been moving at a snail's pace. (Receiving written responses to inquiries pertaining to my case at an average rate of once every 12 - 18 months)

I'm hoping to find someone on this forum that may be able to shed some light on this process, and if there is a source(s) of information somewhere that succinctly outlines this process.

In particular, I'm hoping to find the following information:
  1. What legally constitutes an "Educational Expense" at USMA?
  2. Is there a document or policy outlining the specifics on financial recoupment for Cadets separated from USMA, post-Affirmation?
  3. If anyone else has been involved in disputing the amount of their debt after being separated from USMA post-Affirmation, what was his/her experience as far as timelines of the dispute, the particular steps in this process, and what--if any--outcome there was?
I'm sure I will be getting some flack for the nature of my position on this matter, but the intent of this post is not to shirk any obligation to pay back for my time at West Point, I'm just doing my due-diligence to ensure that I'm only paying back a financial amount that reflects what I am contractually obligated to pay back.

I look forward to hopefully hearing back soon.

All the best!
 
Does anyone on here have any recent gouge on separation payback?

Our mid will be separating due to an (admitted/not fighting it) Honor Violation at the very end of his 1/C year.
He has started DOR process, and has just been quoted a payback amount with no details on how long he
would have to pay it off nor with what interest rate or any other terms. He has been told he has 24 hours
to choose between that and 3 years of enlisted service to pay it off. It seems mind boggling to me that he
should be asked to choose without clear details on the options before him. Is this really just the way it works
when you eff up?

Or we have also heard that the DOR process can be rescinded up to a certain point. Is this just a case of them wanting
to know his probable out processing path, and they don't worry about details because he can still rescind?

Appreciate any information or related experiences. Thanks!
 
Hi, I don't have any input or advice, I just wanted to say this must be difficult for all of you and your mid.
 
@DKTKT

First, I am so sorry. I know this is a blow in so many ways. Love and support each other throughout. He has brains, health and youth, everything he needs to get through this.

At least he is being offered the enlisted option. As he does the comparison thinking, factors to consider: he would clear the debt, serve honorably, received enlisted pay, get 100% medical and dental, be able to put a little money in the Thrift Savings Plan (govt 401k), as well as earn eligibility for any VA educational and other veteran benefits after separation, as well as individual state veteran benefits. He can use Tuition Assistance after-hours or remotely to complete his degree, and then veteran benefits after separation down the road. He would not be teetering at grave’s edge, age-wise, if he did that and then separated.

The debt, after 8 full semesters? Probably the top amount. The big ouch. He may want to try calling DFAS and asking general “what if” questions. DFAS would take over debt management. That debt load will crimp his credit score for years to come, as well as impact his ability to build resources and assets. Comb through every menu item for nuggets of info. Lots of stuff.

And, did he take either the USAA or NFCU Career Starter Loan? He should read the fine print on the loan contract. The tiny interest amount on the payments that start coming due a few months after the planned commissioning date depends on him being on a certain status on active duty. The interest rate may jump to 18% if he no longer meets the loan terms, if they choose to enforce it. He can discuss his options with them. There is no penalty for early repayment. Those loan payments require Direct Deposit of military pay to his bank account with the loan issuer, and auto-pay loan payments. He would have signed all this if he took the loan.

Deep breaths. Family support. Persevere.
 
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The amount I heard a few years ago is $60,000/year ($240k for 4 years) at about 2 percent over prime. This is second-hand from conversations regarding USMA and not from any official source, so it could be quite inaccurate as it applies to USNA today.

24 hours without full information seems ridiculous and the clock will run out before you can do anything.

My advice:
  1. One option is to choose the least confrontational route and either go into enlisted service with a good attitude, or agree to payback (if financially feasible) and focus on the future.
  2. A more confrontational approach is to choose whichever course of action is most feasible - accept enlisted service, agree to payback, or refuse to make selection without more complete information (this one has risk that Navy will decide for you) and then proceed to steps 3 and 4.
  3. Regardless of choice, consider getting legal representation. I don't know what rights are in a case like this (you may have none) - can't hurt to get legal advice. Start with JAG since there is no cost. There are civilian attorneys that specialize in military issues, but I'm not familiar with any specific firm.
  4. Another possibility is to contact your MOC and explain situation. If MOC chooses to intervene, they can be helpful in having the situation handled fairly.
He made a big mistake and is learning a costly lesson. However, it is in the Navy's interest that he not enter enlisted service disgruntled, or return to civilian life with animosity towards the Navy. There is a difference between strict discipline and harsh discipline.
 
Capt MJ said:
@DKTKT

First, I am so sorry. I know this is a blow in so many ways. Love and support each other throughout. He has brains, health and youth, everything he needs to get through this.

At least he is being offered the enlisted option. As he does the comparison thinking, factors to consider: he would clear the debt, serve honorably, received enlisted pay, get 100% medical and dental, be able to put a little money in the Thrift Savings Plan (govt 401k), as well as earn eligibility for any VA educational and other veteran benefits after separation, as well as individual state veteran benefits. He can use Tuition Assistance after-hours or remotely to complete his degree, and then veteran benefits after separation down the road. He would not be teetering at grave’s edge, age-wise, if he did that and then separated.

The debt, after 8 full semesters? Probably the top amount. The big ouch. He may want to try calling DFAS and asking general “what if” questions. DFAS would take over debt management. That debt load will crimp his credit score for years to come, as well as impact his ability to build resources and assets. Comb through every menu item for nuggets of info. Lots of stuff.

And, did he take either the USAA or NFCU Career Starter Loan? He should read the fine print on the loan contract. The tiny interest amount on the payments that start coming due a few months after the planned commissioning date depends on him being on a certain status on active duty. The interest rate may jump to 18% if he no longer meets the loan terms, if they choose to enforce it. He can discuss his options with them. There is no penalty for early repayment. Those loan payments require Direct Deposit of military pay to his bank account with the loan issuer, and auto-pay loan payments. He would have signed all this if he took the loan.

Deep breaths. Family support. Persevere.
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Thanks so much for this! Have very much appreciated your helpful input on this message board over the years.
 
Skipper07 said:
The amount of detail in your post allows myself and many others to identify you.
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Oh, thanks for your concern (But being identified as a specific parent trying to understand the process doesn't seem remotely interesting or impactful. It's just trying to dig up info about his options 🤷‍♀️)
 
DKTKT said:
Oh, thanks for your concern (But being identified as a specific parent trying to understand the process doesn't seem remotely interesting or impactful. It's just trying to dig up info about his options 🤷‍♀️)
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@Skipper07 wasn’t wrong to call this out. The forum has always been intended as an anonymous forum for users. I likely blew it creating my username before I really understood why anonymity was important.

A long time ago I made peace with the fact that if someone wanted to find me— they could. I try to keep super private details of our kiddo to myself or very close forum friends.

Ironically, I have made friends and met people in person due to my lack of censure. I take that as a win. Heck, @93RN and I were able to meet randomly last month and had a great chat!

I wish you and your mid the best in this difficult process.
 
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DKTKT said:
Oh, thanks for your concern (But being identified as a specific parent trying to understand the process doesn't seem remotely interesting or impactful. It's just trying to dig up info about his options 🤷‍♀️)
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It may also identify your mid.
 
DKTKT said:
Does anyone on here have any recent gouge on separation payback?

Our mid will be separating due to an (admitted/not fighting it) Honor Violation at the very end of his 1/C year.
He has started DOR process, and has just been quoted a payback amount with no details on how long he
would have to pay it off nor with what interest rate or any other terms. He has been told he has 24 hours
to choose between that and 3 years of enlisted service to pay it off.
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Sorry to hear. If I'm advising my DS, I recommend to enlist. GI Bill is very generous today with tuition, books, room and board covered. I still remember the old
VEAP, for every one dollar you put in, the
VA matches with two, that's it. If this is a regular enlistment contract, he can pick an exciting occupation in order for the three years to go quickly. During
OIF, I replaced a SF team leader, a
Captain, who decided to resign his commission and stay in the same team as a SFC, E7. I'm fine with it because everyone on the team carries the same load.
 
Would the mandatory enlistment count for full gi bill? Or would it still require 3 above the ADSO?
 
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