USMMA - Concerns

[beyond]

Trying to reply to this thread has pushed me to the brink of having my head explode.

KP doesn't prepare folks for active duty. Not SWO, not SNFO, not SNA, not active duty. It is the United States MERCHANT MARINE Academy. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.

I keep seeing the statement about "if your child desires gaol is active duty service go somewhere else". I don't find that constructive. There is nothing wrong with having that goal and attending KP. The USMMA Mission Statement is:

"To educate and graduate licensed merchant mariners and leaders of exemplary character who will serve America's marine transportation and defense needs in peace and war."

In that mission statement "defense" refers to the role in which the Merchant Marine contributes to the DODs ability to project force abroad. It isn't saying "we want to train people to go active duty" it's saying "we're going to train people who can contribute to the defense needs of the country" which oh by the way include the ability to move stuff across the globe.

The current mission statement was introduced circa 2012/2013. Note the key revision which removed the phrase "armed forces" and modified it to "defense needs." The mission isn't stating the goal of KP training is active duty in the armed forces, it says "hey, we're gona train merchant mariners, merchant mariners are useful to the defense of our countries interests."

KP couldn't be justified financially if the goal was to produce active duty folks. There are tons of programs for that, they are focused on that mission, and they do it well. KP doesn't. It trains MERCHANT MARINERS.... that is why it is called the United States MERCHANT MARINE Academy. Congress is paying for Merchant Mariners, not Ensigns and 2nd Lieutenants.

In fact KP is kind of bad at producing AD folks. KP will train you to be a go getter who can get the job done no matter what, but there is often not a clear path to commissioning. My AD classmates are a smart group who look out for each other in the wardroom. A lot of technical details though don't favor KP'rs as they set out on the road to AD.

The two Kings Point graduates my son has met, and who influenced his decision to apply at USMMA, both went active duty Navy after graduation at KP and now both serve with the Military Sealift Command. So I don't think the comments "If your child desires the military, go another route" are constructive. My son has a 4 year NROTC Scholarship and when the free room and board + stipend is factored in, there is a definite financial advantage to go the NROTC route. However his decision to attend KP will not be based on getting a "free ride" followed by an active duty commission...he already has that option. For some kids there is the desire to serve their country as active duty military officers and then work within America's marine transportation industry, and I think that desire is an exact match to the USMMA Mission Statement.

You say they "serve with" MSC, so I'm going to assume that they're doing it as AD officers (...folks sailing for MSC don't "serve" they "work"). Yeah, MSC needs people that understand ships, but they need very few, many of those rolls are filled by SSOs on long term orders. I'd be surprised if those jobs support .25% of KP alums.. there just aren't that many jobs there it is such a niche thing that people usually fall into it via some other means.

Golfindad. Your comments are true. I would add two plusses for KP re SWO. First, after sea year, your DS would know 10 times more about ships than any NROTC graduate. Whether he goes deck or engine, he would definitely be more of an asset and have way less of a learning curve than his civilian college peers.

It doesn't really matter though. You might know more, but being a SWO is like 10% ship driving, 90% leadership/admin/training/shooting guns. So for that other 90% you've got just as much to learn. Though I agree with point two, KP'rs, (...especially in Pensacola where they are all together) look out for one another better than any other demographic.

 

[sevenrider860]

beyond,

Please don't have any head explosions. The KP grads I referred to were not AD, so "work for" rather than "serve with" would be the correct word. Maybe being in Saipan where the ships were located raised the odds of finding the KP graduates working for MSC.

"KP couldn't be justified financially if the goal was to produce active duty folks...Congress is paying for Merchant Mariners, not Ensigns and 2nd Lieutenants"

I don't think it is difficult to understand that KP does not prepare folks for active duty as you state, but they seem to be graduating a number of unprepared officers. I admit I have just started researching and am greatly uninformed, but it does look like there are always some opportunities for active duty for some of the graduates. Almost 1/3 of the 2016 graduates went active duty based on the press release....prepared or unprepared. So where is the disconnect between the Mission of the academy and what is really happening? Who in charge did not get the memo or fails to understand the Mission?

 

[KPEngineer]

So what if KP wrote "National Defense" into their mission statement.

Since 2001 anything National Defense related has been a sacred cow politically. Every GS-3 flunky at HUD processing grant paperwork for some NGO to hand EBT cards in Ottumwa Iowa thinks they are vital to "National Defense" because every government agency tells congress they are vital to National Defense.

 

[KenJ]

I keep seeing the statement about "if your child desires gaol is active duty service go somewhere else". I don't find that constructive. There is nothing wrong with having that goal and attending KP. The USMMA Mission Statement is:

"To educate and graduate licensed merchant mariners and leaders of exemplary character who will serve America's marine transportation and defense needs in peace and war."

The Class of 2016 graduated 229 Merchant Marine and Military Officers. According to the press release: "As part of the commencement exercises 38 graduates were sworn in as active duty officers in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard. Another 25 graduates will be sworn in to the Marine Corps, Air Force and Coast Guard at a later date."

The two Kings Point graduates my son has met, and who influenced his decision to apply at USMMA, both went active duty Navy after graduation at KP and now both serve with the Military Sealift Command. So I don't think the comments "If your child desires the military, go another route" are constructive. My son has a 4 year NROTC Scholarship and when the free room and board + stipend is factored in, there is a definite financial advantage to go the NROTC route. However his decision to attend KP will not be based on getting a "free ride" followed by an active duty commission...he already has that option. For some kids there is the desire to serve their country as active duty military officers and then work within America's marine transportation industry, and I think that desire is an exact match to the USMMA Mission Statement.

As a parent, I appreciate the fact that as my son will progress through his 4 years at KP he will have the option of not going active duty after graduation should he find other opportunities that change his mind, and he can still serve his country as an officer in the Navy Reserve.

If my student had it to do over, he would not attend USMMA. Graduation is is 433 days for him, assuming the school remains accredited. Good luck with your decision.

Not uncommon for any of the academies.

 

[Jmoney457]

Beyond is honestly correct, at KP there is a whole lot of education about ships, nautical science, and handling, etc but almost zero actual leadership and other skills which one would need to be successful on active duty. This is why my friend, who was coming up on his 2/C year walked away and got into West Point.

 

[KenJ]

I keep seeing the statement about "if your child desires gaol is active duty service go somewhere else". I don't find that constructive. There is nothing wrong with having that goal and attending KP. The USMMA Mission Statement is:

"To educate and graduate licensed merchant mariners and leaders of exemplary character who will serve America's marine transportation and defense needs in peace and war."

The Class of 2016 graduated 229 Merchant Marine and Military Officers. According to the press release: "As part of the commencement exercises 38 graduates were sworn in as active duty officers in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard. Another 25 graduates will be sworn in to the Marine Corps, Air Force and Coast Guard at a later date."

The two Kings Point graduates my son has met, and who influenced his decision to apply at USMMA, both went active duty Navy after graduation at KP and now both serve with the Military Sealift Command. So I don't think the comments "If your child desires the military, go another route" are constructive. My son has a 4 year NROTC Scholarship and when the free room and board + stipend is factored in, there is a definite financial advantage to go the NROTC route. However his decision to attend KP will not be based on getting a "free ride" followed by an active duty commission...he already has that option. For some kids there is the desire to serve their country as active duty military officers and then work within America's marine transportation industry, and I think that desire is an exact match to the USMMA Mission Statement.

As a parent, I appreciate the fact that as my son will progress through his 4 years at KP he will have the option of not going active duty after graduation should he find other opportunities that change his mind, and he can still serve his country as an officer in the Navy Reserve.

If my student had it to do over, he would not attend USMMA. Graduation is is 433 days for him, assuming the school remains accredited. Good luck with your decision.

Not uncommon for any of the academies.

I keep seeing the statement about "if your child desires gaol is active duty service go somewhere else". I don't find that constructive. There is nothing wrong with having that goal and attending KP. The USMMA Mission Statement is:

"To educate and graduate licensed merchant mariners and leaders of exemplary character who will serve America's marine transportation and defense needs in peace and war."

The Class of 2016 graduated 229 Merchant Marine and Military Officers. According to the press release: "As part of the commencement exercises 38 graduates were sworn in as active duty officers in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard. Another 25 graduates will be sworn in to the Marine Corps, Air Force and Coast Guard at a later date."

The two Kings Point graduates my son has met, and who influenced his decision to apply at USMMA, both went active duty Navy after graduation at KP and now both serve with the Military Sealift Command. So I don't think the comments "If your child desires the military, go another route" are constructive. My son has a 4 year NROTC Scholarship and when the free room and board + stipend is factored in, there is a definite financial advantage to go the NROTC route. However his decision to attend KP will not be based on getting a "free ride" followed by an active duty commission...he already has that option. For some kids there is the desire to serve their country as active duty military officers and then work within America's marine transportation industry, and I think that desire is an exact match to the USMMA Mission Statement.

As a parent, I appreciate the fact that as my son will progress through his 4 years at KP he will have the option of not going active duty after graduation should he find other opportunities that change his mind, and he can still serve his country as an officer in the Navy Reserve.

Please allow me to clarify: the point I was trying to convey is that if the DS/DD who's APPLYING TO/CONSIDERING the USMMA is intent on pursuing a military career, the better and more appropriate choices are USMA, USNA, and USAFA. This is different from the midshipman who, as he/she PROGRESSES THROUGH the USMMA, decides to go active duty. That's totally understandable, especially when shipping jobs are tight, and it occurs in every class. Of the 190 or so grads in my class (we started with 330 ... a large number failed out), about 12 went active duty ... USN or USCG. One guy later went active USMC ... after sailing on his license for a while ... there was no mention of the Air Force (which seems an unusually odd fit).

I am a KP grad whose immediate and larger family includes other USMMA, USNA, USCGA, and USMA grads. Too many individuals wind up at KP thinking it's a military academy. It is not. It's this country's ... I would argue the world's ... premier maritime academy. The experience, focus, and education/training at KP will be considerably different than that imparted at the military academies and later in the field (one of the reasons, if not the principle reason, why the selection of Colonel Helis as Superintendent was such a bad choice ... in my view).

The fact that KP appears to be graduating a much larger percentage of who opt for active duty, while commendable in its own way, also generates obvious and serious questions, including whether the institution is fulfilling it primary function, i.e. the education and training of licensed merchant marine officers. And if those doing the assessment ... e.g., congressional appropriators ... think it isn't, then I think we have a good idea what the end point is, especially in an era of enormous budget deficits (my view only).

 

[Faith]

I am reading these posts with the goal of becoming more educated about the academy so that I can talk to my DS about applying to USMMA along with re-applying to USNA. I have been reading the posts and talking to USNA graduates who regret how little they knew about USMMA back in the day, and that if they were applying now, USMMA would be on the list of academies for them. As a parent, I find it frustrating that my DS won't consider any other academy, particularly since he didn't get it this year. Will see how my arguments go...

 

[KPEngineer]

Too many individuals wind up at KP thinking it's a military academy. It is not.

This includes members of the administration.

The fact that KP appears to be graduating a much larger percentage of who opt for active duty, while commendable in its own way, also generates obvious and serious questions, including whether the institution is fulfilling it primary function, i.e. the education and training of licensed merchant marine officers. And if those doing the assessment ... e.g., congressional appropriators ... think it isn't, then I think we have a good idea what the end point is, especially in an era of enormous budget deficits (my view only).

This is part of what will always protect KP. The idea of closing a "military" academy will never go over as popular. When you get into the weeds of DOD readiness status, there are other things that will also protect KP more that the number of grads who go AD in any given year.

 

[KPEngineer]

Beyond is honestly correct, at KP there is a whole lot of education about ships, nautical science, and handling, etc but almost zero actual leadership and other skills which one would need to be successful on active duty. This is why my friend, who was coming up on his 2/C year walked away and got into West Point.

KP is actually a great leadership education. Whenever I'm unsure of what to do as a leader I just do exactly the opposite of the examples set for me at KP at its worked out great.

Except for the Jedi Mund Trick I learned at KP. I use that on my kids all the time and I've used it with people I deal with overseas. It works awesomely every time.

 

[TBoro]

Beyond is honestly correct, at KP there is a whole lot of education about ships, nautical science, and handling, etc but almost zero actual leadership and other skills which one would need to be successful on active duty. This is why my friend, who was coming up on his 2/C year walked away and got into West Point.

Well, don't those going into active duty end up going to OCS during their summers like ROTC cadets/mids? Or is that just for non- Department of Navy branches?

 

[TXKingsPointMom2020]

It seems that most of the hysteria is external to KP. My DS loves it there and is doing well. It was the right decision for him. KP was not only his #1 choice, he didn’t consider any of the other service academies. If your DD/DS has USMMA as an alternate choice, because their ultimate goal is to go active Army/Navy/Air Force/USMC, than it is probably best to go ROTC. KP is tough and stressful, if your DS/DD isn’t fully committed, it may be too overwhelming. Good luck to all.

AGREE!!! Completely!

 

[KenJ]

Beyond is honestly correct, at KP there is a whole lot of education about ships, nautical science, and handling, etc but almost zero actual leadership and other skills which one would need to be successful on active duty. This is why my friend, who was coming up on his 2/C year walked away and got into West Point.

Well, don't those going into active duty end up going to OCS during their summers like ROTC cadets/mids? Or is that just for non- Department of Navy branches?

Too many individuals wind up at KP thinking it's a military academy. It is not.

This includes members of the administration.

The fact that KP appears to be graduating a much larger percentage of who opt for active duty, while commendable in its own way, also generates obvious and serious questions, including whether the institution is fulfilling it primary function, i.e. the education and training of licensed merchant marine officers. And if those doing the assessment ... e.g., congressional appropriators ... think it isn't, then I think we have a good idea what the end point is, especially in an era of enormous budget deficits (my view only).

This is part of what will always protect KP. The idea of closing a "military" academy will never go over as popular. When you get into the weeds of DOD readiness status, there are other things that will also protect KP more that the number of grads who go AD in any given year.

"This is part of what will always protect KP." I respectfully disagree and my point was just the opposite, especially as there's already several (maybe 5?) state maritime academies that can supply licensed merchant marine officers ... and who, it often seems, would prefer to see KP closed (my observations only).

 

[vortexkp99]

First off, I am most thankful my ability to go to KP. I did not have any other realistically financially viable college option at the time.

I choose to go AD in the CG after graduation. Initially, I wanted a marine safety career. However, since I was a Ship's Officer program degree option I decided to go engineering afloat. While I did not sail on my license per se, I did raise my QMED to a 3rd AE and became dual licensed. KP put me far ahead technically and fed me further into the coast guard's Naval Engineering community given the excellent training baseline.

The earlier posts do raise a strategic point considering the KP mission should too large of a portion of graduating students choose AD over commercial sailing.

 

[beyond]

Beyond is honestly correct, at KP there is a whole lot of education about ships, nautical science, and handling, etc but almost zero actual leadership and other skills which one would need to be successful on active duty. This is why my friend, who was coming up on his 2/C year walked away and got into West Point.

Well, don't those going into active duty end up going to OCS during their summers like ROTC cadets/mids? Or is that just for non- Department of Navy branches?

Too many individuals wind up at KP thinking it's a military academy. It is not.

This includes members of the administration.

"This is part of what will always protect KP." I respectfully disagree and my point was just the opposite, especially as there's already several (maybe 5?) state maritime academies that can supply licensed merchant marine officers ... and who, it often seems, would prefer to see KP closed (my observations only).

The difference between the state schools and KP are that KP'rs are required to go to sea for 5 years and maintain their navy commission for 8. That leaves Uncle Sam with 2000 mobilizable reservists who can crew up ships at go. The state schools don't do that.

 

[swrakow]

I am reading these posts with the goal of becoming more educated about the academy so that I can talk to my DS about applying to USMMA along with re-applying to USNA. I have been reading the posts and talking to USNA graduates who regret how little they knew about USMMA back in the day, and that if they were applying now, USMMA would be on the list of academies for them. As a parent, I find it frustrating that my DS won't consider any other academy, particularly since he didn't get it this year. Will see how my arguments go...

USMMA is a great institution and my DD in class of 2020 loves it there. The academics are very, very tough. If your DD/DS hasn't had chemistry, physics, or calculus, it will be a rough road. Not impossible, but rough. As for not getting into USNA first time around, your DS should consider USMMA. Many more options upon graduation than at any other SA. I'm a USNA grad and wish I had known about Kings Point when I was applying. My choice may have been different. I recommend applying to both SAs and to NROTC. Good luck!

 

[kpskilegac]

Just a couple of thoughts here. As swrakow indicated, academics are tough at KP, not that they aren't at the other service academies, but the other service academies have morphed into liberal arts institutions. Students at the other academies can major in English, a foreign language, engineering etc. if they choose. Conversely, KP has a narrowly defined course of study and is the only academy where students receive real world on the job training so they are ready to go to work the day they graduate. The ability to commission from the ROTC programs depends upon the specific needs of the branch of service. If, for example, the Navy doesn't need every officer graduating from NROTC, there is no guarantee those students will be commissioned. There are only 3500-4000 Academy graduates annually. That's a very small and elite group, in contrast to the hundreds of thousands graduating from "regular" colleges each year, including ROTC grads. Graduating from an FSA is a point of difference. Academy graduates are sought after in every field, especially after they complete their service commitments. Bottom line- your student needs to make the choice that best meets their needs, even if you are projecting 5 years out.

 

[KPEngineer]

"This is part of what will always protect KP." I respectfully disagree and my point was just the opposite, especially as there's already several (maybe 5?) state maritime academies that can supply licensed merchant marine officers ... and who, it often seems, would prefer to see KP closed (my observations only).

The difference between the state schools and KP are that KP'rs are required to go to sea for 5 years and maintain their navy commission for 8. That leaves Uncle Sam with 2000 mobilizable reservists who can crew up ships at go. The state schools don't do that.

^^This

It's not about the commercial Merchant Marine, its about big Navy's ability to put crews on ships, and move cargo in a certain timeline. The ability to man a ship with not necessarily voluntary crew is the key to ensuring said certain timeline.

 

[EngrMarine]

I have been helping my son make a full evaluation of USMMA as the date to accept an appointment nears.

I understand that there was a partial restoration of Sea Year in February. The NPA requested that Sea Year be back to full capacity by April 1st. Does anybody know if this has occurred?

It seems that USMMA has suffered from a lack of leadership. Is that same leadership still in place? Do parents of current midshipmen and alumni feel the appointment of Secretary Chao will be beneficial to USMMA and work to correct the problems of the past.

As a parent I support any decision my son will make, but I would hate to see him commit to an institution that is at risk of losing accreditation and no longer offers the education and real at sea maritime experience that Kings Point's history and reputation is based upon.

Thank you.

Before you allow your child to choose USMMA you need to step back and realize it has become very dysfunctional. They can't keep a Superintedent for any appreciable time. They are in danger of losing their accreditation and they have a SA/SHR issue. Not everyone agrees on that last point but the school does and that means a lot to me and my daughter. Having sailed in the merchant marine I know it can be a tough road. The KP grads i have met and work with are very smart and capable officers. However; you can't sweep controversy under the rug and say its just a big conspiracy. While they figure out the training model they plan to use for the future, and they figure out the sexual abuse/harrasment problem, and they figure out their real value added to the industry ( which i agree there is) since they only produce 30% of the officers in any year, then my daughter is looking else where. Too many issues and too much smoke. And where there is smoke..........

 

[swrakow]

Before you allow your child to choose USMMA you need to step back and realize it has become very dysfunctional. They can't keep a Superintedent for any appreciable time. They are in danger of losing their accreditation and they have a SA/SHR issue. Not everyone agrees on that last point but the school does and that means a lot to me and my daughter. Having sailed in the merchant marine I know it can be a tough road. The KP grads i have met and work with are very smart and capable officers. However; you can't sweep controversy under the rug and say its just a big conspiracy. While they figure out the training model they plan to use for the future, and they figure out the sexual abuse/harrasment problem, and they figure out their real value added to the industry ( which i agree there is) since they only produce 30% of the officers in any year, then my daughter is looking else where. Too many issues and too much smoke. And where there is smoke..........

I disagree about any dysfunction at USMMA. The Superintendent, like him or not, has been there for 4+ years. That's longer than at any other service academy. They are working on the accreditation issues - and they were only issued a warning. The 5 things they need to fix have zero to do with academics and everything to do with funding and some leadership issues on campus. Sea year is re-established and any kinks are/have been worked out. The SASH problem really isn't a problem. I'm not saying that SASH isn't a problem, just that it isn't any more of a problem than at any other service academy - and far less than any public or private college in the US.

 

[EngrMarine]

Cat

Clearly you are either on a ship far far away or you have been in a coma. Every stakeholder is calling for the Superintendents departure. Every stake holder is saying MARAD is providing poor leadership. AS i said can't opine on the SASH allegations but the school is saying not me. Please step back and take a look at the situation. Why would anyone commit to this uncertainty. I understand your a current student or alumni. Its ok to be supportive of your school but your own USMMAAF is leading the charge to fix the dysfunction. Go take a look at Kings Point Sentry blog if you want to get caught up on what's happened while you have been sailing and out of touch.