USNA Inflated Application Numbers Finally Revealed via FOIA

[cb7893]

line and luigi, please understand I am trying excuse nothing. Please don't bring up the Federal Gov't. There were no laws preventing Newt from taking $1.6m from Fannie and Freddie and there is no law which prevents him from calling that strategic planning as an historian. There were no laws preventing Spencer Bauchus from shorting the stock market after a private meeting with Henry Paulson.

By all means, let's call them out. However, if we are to do something about it, we need to look in the mirror first and then deal with it as best we can.

 

[Luigi59]

line and luigi, please understand I am trying excuse nothing. Please don't bring up the Federal Gov't. There were no laws preventing Newt from taking $1.6m from Fannie and Freddie and there is no law which prevents him from calling that strategic planning as an historian. There were no laws preventing Spencer Bauchus from shorting the stock market after a private meeting with Henry Paulson.

By all means, let's call them out. However, if we are to do something about it, we need to look in the mirror first and then deal with it as best we can.

Clearly you have an off-topic agenda that has nothing to do with service academies and their admissions statistics.

 

[AikiBudo]

Ummm....Yes, they are new.

Unless you were previously aware that NASS applicants and ineligible juniors counted toward regular admissions stats before this data was released.



Why do you think that is? For what purpose?

If you receive a candidate number you are included, if you have submitted an application you are included (regardless of what grade you are in) - NASS applicants are stated as having submitted an application - i.e. they do not have to submit an additional preliminary application - nothing new nor shocking.

It is probably to compete with the civilian colleges so that the admission numbers are more in line - not really comparable - but more in line. Check in with US News and World Report - they are comfortable with the admission numbers that the Academies submit although I understand many here are not. I do completely agree that there needs to be more disclosure surrounding the numbers from all schools.

 

[LineInTheSand]

line and luigi, please understand I am trying excuse nothing. Please don't bring up the Federal Gov't. There were no laws preventing Newt from taking $1.6m from Fannie and Freddie and there is no law which prevents him from calling that strategic planning as an historian. There were no laws preventing Spencer Bauchus from shorting the stock market after a private meeting with Henry Paulson.

By all means, let's call them out. However, if we are to do something about it, we need to look in the mirror first and then deal with it as best we can.

Don't bring up the federal government? Whether you like it or not, the Naval Academy is an extension of the federal government. A school like Harvard is not. USNA also doesn't have many of the protections executive branch officials do. Finally, Newt wasn't a government official when he took money.

There is no excuse for an agency of the federal government to deceive, especially if there is no security concern. What is USNA's security concern with this information? Saving face....nothing more. That expectation of disclosure of information isn't specific to the Naval Academy. Agencies should default to informing the public.

 

[Luigi59]

Check in with US News and World Report - they are comfortable with the admission numbers that the Academies submit although I understand many here are not.

Ummm....did you read the article? Did you miss this part?

Using the higher numbers puts the academy at odds with other schools, which typically use only completed applications to show their acceptance rate. It’s not enough, a spokesman from another college maintained, to merely start an application.

An official with U.S. News & World Report, which ranks colleges annually, said it’s “very atypical” for schools to use such a benchmark.

a·typ·i·cal   [ey-tip-i-kuhl]
adjective

not typical; not conforming to the type; irregular; abnormal

When asked how this might affect the academy’s ranking in U.S. News, a representative of the magazine said “the school needs to contact us.”

Doesn't sound like they're "comfortable" with those admissions numbers, does it?

 

[cb7893]

Luigi, you're right I was driving on the shoulder, but I have no other agenda. I apologize.

There are two issues here:

1) Are the USNA applicant numbers misleading? Yes they are. Why are they? Because the service academies have an application process unlike any other. Most colleges require little more than an expired fishing license. Is there a willful attempt to mislead applicants and there parents? I don't know. I assume a process will ferret that out. This is an issue for the USNA family.

2)What does this mean for our kids? My answer is welcome to the world. The college application/admission industry is an eight headed hydra, whose raison d'etre is generating $ for itself and justification for parents who spend $50k+/year for a college education. It is a reflection of the larger culture. How do our kids "navigate" (sorry) these waters. This is an issue for every family.

I learned this the hard way with #1 son, who is now an AROTC MSI. He was defining himself by comparing his two page bullet point resume against other kids'. We spent months trying to figure out how to make those scores higher and bullet points more salient.

Our high school junior intends to apply to the USNA. He knows nothing and couldn't care less what the "statistics" are. There are D1 athletes, geographic diversity, ethnic diversity, legacies, children of KIA's, blue to golds. I want him thinking about schoolwork, his hockey/lacross teammates and doing the right thing. More important, I want him to think about studying in his bed with a flashlight for a calculus exam only to get up at 5:30 AM to do crunches in the snow, getting screamed at by a kid only slightly older than he, being deployed, firing a cruise missle at a target 100's of miles away.

BTW, this is an excellent forum and has been extremely helpful. Thanks to all.

 

[falconchic88]

As was already mentioned, you can't compare the way a service academy counts its applicants with a civilian college. A civilian college is a one step process, you apply and then you find out if you were accepted. Many kids apply to a dream school, knowing full well they have zero chance of being accepted, yet they are still counted as applicants.
If the service academies could only count those that finished the process, they are missing a huge amount of applicants that really really wanted to attend, but didn't make it thru one of the hurdles, so never completed their applications. Maybe they were found unqualified thru dodmerb, maybe they failed the CFA, maybe they didn't get that nomination. It doesn't mean they weren't applicants just because they never completed the lengthy process. Why should a service academy only be allowed to count those qualified to continue the process when none of the other universities do this?
Now I agree that counting every summer seminar application is a stretch, but in reality, that summer seminar application is your initial application to a service academy. There has to be a set place to start the count, for tracking purposes, and as long as its the same year to year, thats how they can tell if applications are increasing or decreasing, which is the primary purpose for tracking the application numbers in the first place.

 

[Luigi59]

Regardless of what any of us choose to believe about why they do it, it should be clear to USNA qualified candidates that their chances are much greater than the previously-believed inflated numbers would indicate.

1,426 appointments from 5,720 completed apps (class of 2015) is about a 25% acceptance rate.

And when counting only those who are actually eligible for appointments (those who are triple qualified and have a nomination) the rate is somewhere around 75%.

 

[usnabgo08]

Let's be honest here....many posters claim this isn't news, and you are correct if you are talking about "us" (as in those experienced enough with the process). For joe parent/candidate attending a USNA Admissions forum, MOC candidate night, or just happened to browse the class profile online....it isn't obvious to them, if the advertised number is 18,000. The audience isn't this forum.

I agree with LITS and Luigi, this information should be up front.

If the service academies could only count those that finished the process, they are missing a huge amount of applicants that really really wanted to attend, but didn't make it thru one of the hurdles, so never completed their applications. Maybe they were found unqualified thru dodmerb, maybe they failed the CFA, maybe they didn't get that nomination. It doesn't mean they weren't applicants just because they never completed the lengthy process.

Who knows what the correct balance is for determining who is an applicant for a Service Academy. HOWEVER, all official candidates CAN complete an application SEPARATE of the CFA and DODMERB, and be seen by the Admissions Board for a scholastic decision. For the purposes of the A.B., an application is reviewable when all documents less than the CFA, DODMERB, and nomination are complete.

A civilian college is a one step process, you apply and then you find out if you were accepted. Many kids apply to a dream school, knowing full well they have zero chance of being accepted, yet they are still counted as applicants.

At civilian colleges, no matter how much of a "reach" the applicant might anticipate they have, they would still be reviewed by the Admissions Board for consideration, even if it might be 1% chance. Let me reiterate, a DECISION is still made by the Admissions Board.

USNA is advertising (through perception) that they are making decisions on 18,000 applicants, when in reality, it isn't that much.

 

[Packer]

I don't know if their intent is to mislead or not and I am fine with them using the 18,000-19,000 number if they also include some additional numbers like completed applications or reviewed applications. The other academies supply thes numbers so they should be able to as well. I am sure they will be contacting me soon to get my advice on the matter.

 

[AikiBudo]

Lugi - thanks dude - I had no idea what "atypical" meant. And seriously: "the school needs to contact us" ??? US News is not going to contact them concerning such a grievous error? My understanding is that, as reported in the article, USNA has been doing it this way for a long time and this is not the first time that US News has heard of this. Like the man said "It almost makes no meaningful difference in the ranking". The bottom line is that USNA should break down and clarify their numbers for everyone - then if they want to use their definition of what they consider an applicant - fine. And if US News has a problem with it and decides (after 10 or 20 years) that they are not comfortable with it - fine.

 

[breadcrumbs]

Regardless of inflation, under or over, every candidate should do their best to submit the best package possible. I don't know how many kids sweat and fret over app numbers. None we know, past and present.....too busy with academics, sports, job, etc...

Clearly this issue of app numbers is of paramount importance for some folks here. Instead of being anonymous internet entities, set up an appointment with admissions, invite Prof. Fleming and some MOC's to get all your questions answered and seek the changes you believe should implemented in reporting of numbers.

Absolutely nothing is accomplished by complaining, hashing and re-hashing ad infinitum on an anonymous internet forum, nothing. As I tell my children: Be a doer and make a difference!

 

[MemberLG]

Regardless of what any of us choose to believe about why they do it, it should be clear to USNA qualified candidates that their chances are much greater than the previously-believed inflated numbers would indicate.

1,426 appointments from 5,720 completed apps (class of 2015) is about a 25% acceptance rate.

And when counting only those who are actually eligible for appointments (those who are triple qualified and have a nomination) the rate is somewhere around 75%.

However, comparing acceptance rate between SA and a regular college is not fair, as some other posterst already mentioned. If I got asthma, can't even do one push up, and my MOC has no idea that I am applying to whatever college, I could still get in.

 

[MemberLG]

Regardless of inflation, under or over, every candidate should do their best to submit the best package possible. I don't know how many kids sweat and fret over app numbers. None we know, past and present.....too busy with academics, sports, job, etc...

Clearly this issue of app numbers is of paramount importance for some folks here. Instead of being anonymous internet entities, set up an appointment with admissions, invite Prof. Fleming and some MOC's to get all your questions answered and seek the changes you believe should implemented in reporting of numbers.

Absolutely nothing is accomplished by complaining, hashing and re-hashing ad infinitum on an anonymous internet forum, nothing. As I tell my children: Be a doer and make a difference!

I do think that something can be accomplished - how should SAs recruit? In my opinion the current recuriting practice is more about free education and being Ivy league like school than service to country and becoming a military officer. Recuriting for SA should be about serving the nation AND being a miltiary officer first.

If I got a quarter for every kid that I talked that wants to do great things by attending a SA but not realizing that they have to become a military officer, possibly even a lowly Infantry officer that might actually get shot at by bad people in a place far away from home, I should be able to buy myself a nice dinner or two . . ..

 

[cb7893]

Regardless of what any of us choose to believe about why they do it, it should be clear to USNA qualified candidates that their chances are much greater than the previously-believed inflated numbers would indicate.

1,426 appointments from 5,720 completed apps (class of 2015) is about a 25% acceptance rate.

And when counting only those who are actually eligible for appointments (those who are triple qualified and have a nomination) the rate is somewhere around 75%.

Luigi has it right. Just the facts ma'am.

When you consider that one can apply to over 400 colleges using the Common Application with one click and $50-100 a pop, there is no comparison. Granted, the elites will have you do an extra essay.

It is nothing to apply to 10 schools since acceptance at the super elites is so seemingly arbitrary. You can have 800/800/800 SAT 4.whatever GPA and count on nothing. If your Dad is a cardiologist then lots of luck. If you grew up over his grocery store its in like flint. You have to play the game if you aspire to that and it only pushes the acceptance rates down.

I think that luigi's 25% number is hugely impressive, given that the likes of Johns Hopkins, University of Chicago, Rice, Washington U are in the 20-25% range (all of them are common app schools). I can assure you that #2 son will spend more time and effort getting into that pool of completed USNA apps than 90% of the applicant pools to the "Most selective" schools.

Finally, whatever the US News chart says, USNA is one freaking difficult school to get into and at least as difficult to get through. The admissions/PR folks should probably just stop participating in these surveys.

 

[AF6872]

AHH! Dr. Fleming again. Academic Tenure is a wonderful thing. No "for cause" here.