USNA vs NROTC officers

I don't want to start anything but I think there might be a few SMC students ie: The Citadel, VMI et al that can say that also, some SA candidates can be DQ'ed for reasons out of their control like vision or childhood sickness. I'm just saying....

Well, if one is DQ'd for reasons beyond their control, then it makes sense that they can still be proud of having made it as far as they did. They didn't quit and they didn't get tossed for academics. Fate can be cruel, but their accomplishment remains.

As for Citadel and VMI, be warned that their graduates can be just as cocky as SA graduates are stereotyped as being. The navigator on my first ship was a VMI grad, and I've met few people as stuck up as that jerk. His men dispised him.
 
Officers are great not because of their commissioning source or their education, it is how they can translate orders into action. It is how they treat the people they serve with. There are great tacticians, but that doesn't correlate into great leaders and vise a verse.

I'm going to return Pima's favor and agree 100% with this, and I'll even take it a step further.

In my day, Midshipmen really weren't exposed to enlisted personnel in any significant way, certainly not in a way that helped instil a respect for an immutable law of JO Leadership: YOUR PEOPLE CAN SUCCEED WITHOUT YOU, BUT YOU CANNOT SUCCEED WITHOUT YOUR PEOPLE.

Therefore, if you treat your people like plebes, it doesn't matter if your father is the CNO, you are fifth-generation USNA, and that you graduated at the top of your class. YOU WILL FAIL. If, however, you treat your people well, look after them, and earn their respect, then YOU WILL SUCCEED, even if you attended ROTC at Podunk U. and graduated as the anchor man.

As little as I can offer in terms of current information about the Service Academies, this is one area that I can pontificate on for HOURS and still be current: YOUR PEOPLE CAN MAKE OR BREAK YOU AS A JUNIOR OFFICER. Not only CAN they, but they WILL. An officer who is arrogant, aloof, disinterested, and therefore not seen as a person worth following will not be backed up in the event of a mistake (and EVERYONE makes TONS of them at first), no matter how technically or tactically brilliant they are. OTOH, an officer who isn't the next Bull Halsey in terms of technical knowledge and tactics WILL be backed up by his men when he makes a mistake.

If you will permit me an anecdote, and one which I hold dear...

I was not the finest Naval Officer ever to sail the ocean blue. Not even close. I was, at best, average. I won't bore you with the reasons why, but I just didn't have the same fire in the belly I had while at USNA. That said, I did the best I could to get by but....... BUT........ I LOOKED AFTER MY FOLKS.

One day I was getting grilled by my (insert a long string of well-deserved expletives) Department Head when my Chief stepped in and said, "Wait a minute, sir. You're being unfair. Mr. Zaphod transmitted those instructions just fine, but one of my guys didn't follow through. I'll take care of it, but please take my boss off the hook."

When Chiefs talk, the wise shut up and listen.

Later that day, I spoke to my Chief and asked him why he'd done that. After all, I HAD screwed up. He'd totally pulled my ass out of the fire.

"Well, sir...... You may have been a screwed up DIVO, but you're OUR screwed-up DIVO, and you take good care of us, so...."

You see? Your men will cover for you IF they respect you and IF the mistake in question can be addressed by THEM. The catch, of course, is EARNING that respect. How do you do that?

If they have problem, LISTEN. If they ask for help, GIVE IT. If they have a question, ANSWER IT.

By the same token, this doesn't mean BABY them, either. A leader is one who can balance being a father figure with being an *******. If you are too much of either, then you will breed contempt because you will be seen either as a total jerk or a pushover. Neither is good.

My guys knew that they could come to me with problems, questions, issues, etc., and that I'd listen and do my best to help. They knew that when the crap was coming downhill, I'd be there to take it for them. HOWEVER, they ALSO knew that if they screwed up, I wouldn't be happy and would say so. They knew I had standards and that I expected them to be met (Well, the CHIEF set the standards until he taught me to set my own, but they didn't know that at the time - :biggrin:).

Notice that not once in any of this did the fact that I went to USNA vs. ROTC come up.

Get it? :thumb:


ETA: One important thing - I believe USNA graduates SHOULD perform better, that they SHOULD outshine non-USNA officers. There is NO EXCUSE NOT TO. You attended one of the finest colleges in the country FOR FREE, you were IMMERSED in Naval education and training, and you were ostensibly taught for FOUR YEARS how to be a LEADER. If you DON'T shine, then it's YOUR fault!

A shame I learned this later than when it would have mattered. :frown:

A shame so many NEVER learned it, or did so poorly they REALLY messed it up for the rest of us! :mad:
 
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When reading the above, I could not help thinking about the term “Ring knockers”……it always seems to refer to the academy grads…….All I can say is take a look at those VMI rings sometime…….I used to joke that you could spot them things a mile away when conducting night land navigation training! :shake:

No joke. Damned things generate their own gravity wells....
 
Knocking is an understatement when talking about VMI rings, when those things fall against anything, it's a nuclear explosion.
 
Great leadership lesson, Zaphod. I copied it into a word doc and printed to review as I think you make some points that apply to many leadership situations. My 4-H horse judging team is going to share in your wisdom after school today!:thumb:
 
Oh, no! :redface:

You may want to edit out the "*******" reference, though. :yllol:
 
Z- I'm not gonna hand it out, just review the "general drift." Don't want the teenagers we coach to start thinking of any new names form hubby and I!
 
You can substitute "Chiefs" with just about any Senior SNCO rank. In my case.....When the "Gunny talks" or the M/SGT speaks.....SGTMAJ.....you get the idea.


Absolutely true.

There is a bit of a pecking order in the enlisted Navy. It's probably the same in the other services.

No one really takes you seriously until you are an E-4. E-5 is when it starts getting serious. When you hit E-6, you are expected to be a leader.

However, when you break through to E-7, E-8, and E-9, you are given the Keys to the Kingdom. When they talk, everyone E-6 and below and O-1 to about O-6 shuts up and listens. The others just take a little longer.

During my June Week, a retired grad gave me some sage advice: "Listen to your Chief. Do what he tells you to do. If you don't agree with him, do it anyway and then go see him about it."

To that I add, "Once you are an O-3, you have the right to ask your Chief why you should do what he's asking you to do, THEN go do it." :thumb:

If you're as lucky as I was (I had a string of phenominal Chiefs work for me), you will be golden.
 
Another set of ranks that the Marine Corps has (I cannot speak for the navy) is the Warrant Officers. (WO-1, CWO-2, CWO-3, CWO-4 and CWO-5)
I would encourage all junior officers to seek their experts’ advice and guidance. Do not be afraid to ask them questions. They are always willing to answer and it is a good way to impress them. Also, during operations…..do as they say without questions! There will be time for that later.

It is also advisable to never get on their bad boy or girl list! They can make both heaven and hell quake at the same time and I am not always sure God himself can stop them! :thumb:

Yep! Navy has those as well.

You wanna see something funny? Have a college-boy officer (ROTC or USNA.... doesn't matter) try to talk smack to one of these guys before said officer is on the "He's OK" list. R Lee Ermey could learn a thing or two about ass-chewings from them! :biggrin:

The weird thing is that I have no clue how Warrants differ from LDO's, and how an enlisted can climb to those levels. Bad Zaphod! No donut! :thumbdown:
 
There is not much of a difference between an LDO and a WO to be honest. In fact in the Marine Corps, most LDO’s were Warrant Officers first.

I had a Warrant on my first ship who became an LDO, but then decided to revert to being a Warrant. Yeah, I don't get it, either. :confused:

Once selected, I completed Warrant Officer Candidate School

Is that Fork and Knife School? :sofa:

I hope you find this helpful.

A muffled, distant voice coming from a hole in the ground: "Yes!" :biggrin::thumb:
 
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