USNA vs U of Michigan NROTC- Marine Option

USNA vs U of Michigan NROTC- Marine Option

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Lejeune22

Lejeune22
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Mar 24, 2019
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Hi everyone,

I have been lucky enough to earn an appointment to USNA with the class of 2023 and also a NROTC Marine Option scholarship to the University of Michigan. Although having to choose is a great problem to have, I am conflicted on which route to select.

USNA has been my dream school since I was 10 years old. Although USNA has always been my top choice, I was not expecting to get in so I also applied for the NROTC scholarship. NROTC was originally my backup but I have become intrigued with the thought of only being 30 minutes away from home & also getting to live out a more normal college experience (not necessarily partying, that’s not important to me). The only thing holding me back from USNA is that I would only be able to see my family and friends a few times per year whereas at U of M I would be able to see them regularly. The fact that I wouldn’t have to leave home as early as I would for Plebe Summer is also a factor. USNA is a great school and I know I would fit in very well with the brigade as opposed to the students at U of M. Also, NROTC Marine Option would guarantee me a commission as a Marine Officer (assuming that I do well during my 4 years and at OCS) whereas USNA could not guarantee me a commission as a Marine Officer. I would also want to major in History or economics with a minor in spanish.

Does it become easy to be away from your family for so long at an academy?

Does one option provide a better opportunity to become a pilot?

Does one prepare me better for the fleet?

Like any future college student I am concerned about the big transition that I am about to undergo after graduation. Whichever path I choose I will be 100% committed to, but as of now I am just trying to make the best decision for my future and consider all aspects of my decision.

THANK YOU in advance for your advice and counsel.
 
If you’ll have trouble being away from your family for long stretches of time, often with little or no communication at all, you should probably consider whether to become a commissioned officer at all. Whether you go into the Corps — or the fleet, which you also mention — these are the stark realities.

It’s not often mentioned here, but USNA certainly prepares you for the aspect of active duty that entails long and frequent absences from your loved ones. Just during Plebe Summer, you’ll be allowed unlimited mail but only three scheduled 30-minute phone calls over a six-week period before PPW.

Beyond that, you should rank your various criteria in order of importance. Then decide where USNA vs. ROTC fits in each one, by priority order. And remember that kids your age change their minds — a lot. So which place will better accommodate you should you have a change of heart re major or branch or whatnot.

That, not a poll on SFA, is how an aspiring officer should make this decision.
 
Each program creates and prepares Officers for the fleet in different ways. Yes, NROTC will guarantee you a Marine Corps commission if you graduate from Bulldog your 1/C Summer. As for being a pilot, you can get an air contract through NROTC that will get you a pilot slot when you commission and head over to TBS (opposed to competing for the two slots for pilot at OCS).

Take everything you hear with a grain of salt, as NROTC guys are proud of going through Bulldog to earn the title when Academy Mids don't, and Academy guys/gals are proud of going through the Academy and Leatherneck (not saying one is easier than the other). The reality is as a branch, the Marine Corps really doesn't care how you commission (juxtaposed to the Navy, where the vast majority of our Flags are USNA grads).

You have a good problem to have. Congratulations on getting picked up for both.
 
By the way, @oliviafoster36, if that’s your real name, please ask a moderator to help you change your username. This is an anonymous forum, for your own safety.
 
oliviafoster36 said:
Does it become easy to be away from your family for so long at an academy?
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Leaving home for any college can be tough at first. Over time you develop new friendships and college begins to feel more like it's your home in many ways. As was pointed out above, when you're in the fleet you'll see little of your family unless they live near where you're stationed. DS's first active duty billet was 2 years in Okinawa. That was tough for him and for Mom and Dad, but it's survivable with Facetime and eventually you get to see them again (DS was home for the first time in 3 years this past Christmas). My own opinion is that you need to get used to this at some point anyway, might as well tackle it now.

Does one option provide a better opportunity to become a pilot?
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I don't believe so.

Does one prepare me better for the fleet?
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Perhaps for the first year or so the Academy will prepare you better for the fleet but NROTC MO midshipmen are nothing to sneeze at. I've met great officers from the Academy and NROTC. I've met bad officers from the Academy and NROTC. Once you're there no one will care whether you were an academy grad or commissioned via NROTC. All they will care about is your leadership and your results.

One last comment. If you've wanted the academy for so long, I expect you might have second thoughts for a significant portion of your life. That being said you have to pick the path that's best for you and neither option is a bad choice, just different.
 
If History is very important to you then do your homework and make sure you know what you're getting into.

Note that the USNA will have far more of the traditional history courses that focus on the behavior of states, of great men, and of political history and diplomatic and of course military history.

U. Michigan used to have a world-class History department with experts in all of the above, but now it like nearly every other elite school has almost totally eliminated military and diplomatic history in favor of "identity" history (Women's, African & African-American, Gay/Q. etc etc). All this comes with a very heavy left-wing spin, with a few exceptions such as the great historian and superb teacher of Cuban History, Rebecca Scott.

USNA History is meat & potatoes. UM History is vegan + tofu + arugula. They're worlds apart.
 
thibaud said:
If History is very important to you then do your homework and make sure you know what you're getting into.

Note that the USNA will have far more of the traditional history courses that focus on the behavior of states, of great men, and of political history and diplomatic and of course military history.

U. Michigan used to have a world-class History department with experts in all of the above, but now it like nearly every other elite school has almost totally eliminated military and diplomatic history in favor of "identity" history (Women's, African & African-American, Gay/Q. etc etc). All this comes with a very heavy left-wing spin, with a few exceptions such as the great historian and superb teacher of Cuban History, Rebecca Scott.

USNA History is meat & potatoes. UM History is vegan + tofu + arugula. They're worlds apart.
Click to expand...

If you don’t mind me asking, what are your sources? UMich has a very broad curriculum and also offers the traditional courses you mentioned. Unless you have personal experience in both schools, I don’t think your claims are accurate.
 
@DevilDoc I went through the entire catalog, which every prospective attendee should do rather than rely on anonymous internet comments. There certainly seems to be a dearth of Western Civ and history courses. They have everything else you might want to study and will probably soon add "The history of the hang nail in Southeast Asia"
 
"Does one prepare me better for the fleet?"

kinnem said:
I just noticed another post that addresses your last question. Read this post: https://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/atypical-path.67061/
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I graduated from neither institution so can't speak to which would be the choice for you. Following up on kinnem's comment and link to my post about my son though is something I can talk about. As I and many others have said on here, the Marine Corps does not give a flip from which college you graduated or what you majored in. I know a Harvard finance major who is an infantry officer and a financial management officer with a degree in biology. A former youth and then high school baseball player of mine did the five year engineering masters program at VT (not ROTC) then showed up at the OSO's office and has been flying C-130s for about seven years. I won't repeat my son's story but he graduated from a mid-ranked state school and also showed up at the OSO's office a few years ago when the Corps was doing a numbers surge and they even paid for a bunch of his college debt.

You though OP have much better options. You surely cannot go wrong with either school but as mentioned above, if being close to home is a priority, you might ponder a little more about doing time in one of the Sea Services. Which will prepare you better for the Fleet? In 26 years my operational experience was close to 50/50 blue side/green side and one of my HQ commands was Military Sealift Command. I won't talk about my perceptions of how prepared ensigns and 2nd Lts are at their first command because it probably won't come out right. I will say though that new officers need mentoring from the minute they check aboard and many times that is lacking.

What a great choice and huge decision before you.
Life long dream-Annapolis
Close to family and friends-Michigan
More normal college experience-Michigan
Leave later for Plebe Summer-Michigan
Guaranteed commissioning as a Marine officer-Michigan

Best wishes no matter what you choose.
 
kinnem said:
@DevilDoc I went through the entire catalog, which every prospective attendee should do rather than rely on anonymous internet comments. There certainly seems to be a dearth of Western Civ and history courses. They have everything else you might want to study and will probably soon add "The history of the hang nail in Southeast Asia"
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Just for fun I went to their history department page and these courses were advertised in a big banner-like display. I didn't dig into the catalog but am sure a school as big and fine as Michigan has history courses out the wazoo.
 
Well I didn't look at the course catalog. I looked at the scheduled classes.Out the wazoo, yes. Pertinent? Not so sure. In any case a student should review it on their own. They might very well be pleased and find exactly what they are looking for.
 
mx130 said:
thibaud said:
If History is very important to you then do your homework and make sure you know what you're getting into. U. Michigan used to have a world-class History department with experts in all of the above, but now it like nearly every other elite school has almost totally eliminated military and diplomatic history in favor of "identity" history (Women's, African & African-American, Gay/Q. etc etc). All this comes with a very heavy left-wing spin, with a few exceptions such as the great historian and superb teacher of Cuban History, Rebecca Scott.
Click to expand...

If you don’t mind me asking, what are your sources? UMich has a very broad curriculum and also offers the traditional courses you mentioned. Unless you have personal experience in both schools, I don’t think your claims are accurate.
Click to expand...

At Michigan's History department, the ratio of a) identity politics, non-Western, & sexuality or gender History courses to b) traditional history courses on Western political or military or diplomatic history is almost 9 to 1.

From the U. Michigan Course Catalog, Fall Semester, 2019, undergraduate History courses

LSA Course Guide Search Results: UG, Fall 2019, Subject = HISTORY
# of total undergraduate courses: 87

Category / # of courses:
- Diplomatic or Military History: 1 course
- Religion: 9 courses
- African-American or African History: 8 courses
- East Asian History: 6 courses
- South or Southeast Asian History: 4 courses
- Sexuality: 4 courses (plus 2 courses on Gender, one course on Witches, and one course on the Family in History)
- Jewish History: 4 courses
- History of Capitalism: 3 courses
​
So a total of 16 courses on either god/gods, sex, or witches
... and a grand total of one (1) course on either military or diplomatic history.

And 18 courses on the history of Africa and Asia, or African-Americans or Asian-Americans
... and a grand total of three (3) courses on Modern Europe or Russia.

Here's the full tally - link:
Religion 9
Afr Amer or Africa 8
East Asia 6
Human Rights / Civil Rights 4
Jewish 4
Middle East or Islam 4
Sexuality 4
South Asia 4
Capitalism 3
Historiography 3
Crime & Punishment 2
Cultural - Modern 2
Family or Gender 2
General 2
Intellectual 2
Latin Am 2
Medieval 2
Modern Culture 2
Modern Eur 2
Native Amer 2
"September 11" 1
The American Right [ nb. not "American Conservatism" but "The American Right" - seriously doubt this is a sympathetic or unbiased approach ] = 1
Ancient - Greece 1
Asian Amer 1
Diplomatic 1
Disaster 1
Econ Hist 1
Genealogy 1
Immigration 1
Medicine 1
Nazis 1
Russia 1
Terrorism 1
Theater 1
Urban 1
US 1
War -Social Experience 1
Witches 1
 
kinnem said:
Well I didn't look at the course catalog. I looked at the scheduled classes.Out the wazoo, yes. Pertinent? Not so sure. In any case a student should review it on their own. They might very well be pleased and find exactly what they are looking for.
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Absolutely.

As the above list shows, if you're into the history of Religion, or the history of sexuality (what undergrad doesn't want to learn more about sex?), you'll be in heaven at U. Michigan History.

Also, if you couldn't care less about Russia or Western Europe, and are keen to learn more about East Asia or South Asia or Southeast Asia or Africa, you'll also be pleased with the very extensive range of History courses at U. Michigan on those non-western regions and topics.

Nothing wrong with the above.

I just can't imagine any historically-minded aspiring US military officer not being given the chance to study the history of the causes, conduct and consequences of wars in western history. (Note that there's not even a single course in that list of 87 courses on either of the two World Wars. Not one).
 
thibaud said:
Absolutely.

As the above list shows, if you're into the history of Religion, or the history of sexuality (what undergrad doesn't want to learn more about sex?), you'll be in heaven at U. Michigan History.

Also, if you couldn't care less about Russia or Western Europe, and are keen to learn more about East Asia or South Asia or Southeast Asia or Africa, you'll also be pleased with the very extensive range of History courses at U. Michigan on those non-western regions and topics.

Nothing wrong with the above.

I just can't imagine any historically-minded aspiring US military officer not being given the chance to study the history of the causes, conduct and consequences of wars in western history. (Note that there's not even a single course in that list of 87 courses on either of the two World Wars. Not one).
Click to expand...

The courses you listed are only limited to the history department. I looked through the course catalog (thanks for linking it btw) and there are many courses in other departments that cover domestic and overseas conflicts. You can also find a large number of similar courses in UMich’s Ford School of Public Policy. Most of those courses can be taken regardless of major.

Both UMich and USNA are great schools but I don’t want OP to think that there is a shortage of opportunities at UMich when there isn’t.
 
I was a history major at a USNA. I enjoyed it. But I will say I took more STEM overall than history in the end. I have spent more time in my civilian career as an engineer and IT leader than anything. So USNA gave me a very well rounded education. Take a look at the courses and what that major that would entail. The professors pushed my knowledge and my thought process. I really learned to be a critical thinker.

Yes, NROTC MO will guarantee USMC. Unless you totally suck at USNA you would get USMC. There are lots of threads on this topic. USNA also gives you the option to explore the Navy side for a career if that interests you. For some that is a draw to USNA. USNA will prepare you well to be a Marine, if you put the time and effort in.

Bottom line, only you can pick this. You will miss your family and friends while at USNA. It’s a total immersive experience. You will be surrounded by USNA 24 x 7. But you will get to meet people and experience things that you won’t get anywhere else but a SA. There are lots of threads on these topics. Read them and explore what is right for you.
 
So the history of religions has absolutely *nothing* to do with the wars that have been waged throughout history and today . . . Um, OK.

And East Asia, Southeast Asia, and Africa . . . also irrelevant to today's fleet operations? Right.

Anyone selected for a LREC scholarship will quickly find that Western Europe and its languages (with the exception of French, because: Africa) are *not* desired by the Navy as areas of study.

It's a big world out there.
 
Again, there's nothing wrong with studying the history of religion or the history of witches or sexuality or Southeast Asia or anything human. That's the scope of historical study, after all.

The point is the extreme dearth of core historical courses on the history of states, statesmen, and the causes of war and the preservation of the peace.

If there were more than 3 or 4 such courses - out if 87 total - this wouldn't be an issue.

But the ridiculous imbalance - 10x ! - suggests a deliberate disdain among this group of scholars for the core subject of historical study, the political-military-diplomatic dimension. (That's also weird: it's as if a university Economics department refused to teach more than a couple of courses on how markets work, because, well, that would be giving aid and comfort to conservatives.)

As I say, if a student is fine with a vegan & tofu intellectual diet for four years, then no problem. Different strokes etc.
 
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