Very good students?

[Humey]

DS is a candidate and has test scores in the 98-99% on both ACT and SAT with a 4.35 GPA. In no way does he (or we) feel confident he'll get an appointment based on grades and test scores. He was a little stressed today that WP got incorrect CFA scores (a mix up from summer seminar) because he practiced and was prepared for the CFA when he took it. He's in a mostly academic high school (he's only ranked in the top 15% of his class and 8 kids from his class last year scored perfect ACT scores), so he's been challenged academically, both by teachers and his peers. What draws him to the SA's is being challenged in all the other areas that a SA offers. Leaders are born in so many different ways and different places.

Yep, my son feels similarly. He said he doesn’t want to go to a college where people waste a lot of time (like he knows I did and his sister does). As for the application, I empathize. I think my son’s application is strong academically (like yours) above average CFA, average athletics (varsity football, but nothing outstanding) and below average in terms of leadership. So we sure aren’t counting on anything, especially in our populous state.
Best of luck to your DS!

I hope I dont sound rude, but maybe your son shouldnt worry so much on what others do. In any group of people, civilian or military, you are going to have the high achievers on one end and the partiers on the others. Probably harder to do that in an academy but it still remains true. I am sure if you son goes to MIT, Stanford or Harvard, he is going to find the same spectrum of people. As others have said, the SA are looking for more than top GPA or test scores. If all they wanted was top academics, the military could just recruit those going to the Ivys. While it is true that many Ivy students would qualify, there are probably more that wouldnt. It would seem to me that if you are going to attend an academy, education while vastly important, isnt the only thing that matters.

 

[Heatherg21]

Our DS got great advice from a mid a few years back at an academy seminar. The mid discussed having worked hard in high school but never really having to struggle and never failing a test or class. Her advice was to practice handling failure, because she guaranteed that if you hadn't ever failed at something, you would surely be introduced to it at a SA. How you handled that failure was what mattered. She shared with him that she had watched several of her peers deal with this, herself included. I thought that was a great take away. Hopefully he will experience the whole SA journey in the future.

 

[SCubb]

All great answers. To @davejean90 you don't need to talk me into anything, and my son is 100% enthusiastic. It's easy to say I don't "get it", ie the totality of the place. I do get it. But it's certainly a fair question when the SA's tout not only their leadership and army fitness but also their academics. Do they not? They do. And when you read articles that I'm sure all of us have seen that question the academic commitment of some of the students, it's a fair line of inquiry I've opened up, with which others on this thread have graciously engaged.
I've read a LOT about the students and these issues and these answers reinforced all the positive thoughts I had and why I'm very supportive of his applying to USMA. And despite his grades and total package, I'm not remotely sure he'll get an appointment. NJ, like Southern Cal., is very competitive for nominations and appointments.
I thought it would be interesting to hear all these perspectives, including yours for sure, and you guys didn't disappoint!

Best of luck NJDad. I had many of the same concerns as you for my DS. Much, in hindsight, came from the utter shock when DS expressed his interest in SA. After years of my assuming that my super talent kid was destined for a top University, the day he told me he felt a calling to serve set me on a 6 month emotional roller coaster. Not being a military family - I had much to learn. SAs have a very different mission than “normal” colleges, and they attract a very different candidate list. A year and a half later, after learning A LOT from this group, my respect for my DS and his commitment, and my pride for the choices he makes (making) have never been higher.
There are avenues for tremendous academic challenges, as stated in the posts above, and SA representation on Fulbright And Rhodes Scholars lists is impressive - but it not the only area where cadets and midshipmen are expected to excel. My DS is looking for the whole challenge and he is convinced he won’t get that at any other place.

 

[NJDadofDSUSMA2024Hopeful]

All great answers. To @davejean90 you don't need to talk me into anything, and my son is 100% enthusiastic. It's easy to say I don't "get it", ie the totality of the place. I do get it. But it's certainly a fair question when the SA's tout not only their leadership and army fitness but also their academics. Do they not? They do. And when you read articles that I'm sure all of us have seen that question the academic commitment of some of the students, it's a fair line of inquiry I've opened up, with which others on this thread have graciously engaged.
I've read a LOT about the students and these issues and these answers reinforced all the positive thoughts I had and why I'm very supportive of his applying to USMA. And despite his grades and total package, I'm not remotely sure he'll get an appointment. NJ, like Southern Cal., is very competitive for nominations and appointments.
I thought it would be interesting to hear all these perspectives, including yours for sure, and you guys didn't disappoint!

Best of luck NJDad. I had many of the same concerns as you for my DS. Much, in hindsight, came from the utter shock when DS expressed his interest in SA. After years of my assuming that my super talent kid was destined for a top University, the day he told me he felt a calling to serve set me on a 6 month emotional roller coaster. Not being a military family - I had much to learn. SAs have a very different mission than “normal” colleges, and they attract a very different candidate list. A year and a half later, after learning A LOT from this group, my respect for my DS and his commitment, and my pride for the choices he makes (making) have never been higher.
There are avenues for tremendous academic challenges, as stated in the posts above, and SA representation on Fulbright And Rhodes Scholars lists is impressive - but it not the only area where cadets and midshipmen are expected to excel. My DS is looking for the whole challenge and he is convinced he won’t get that at any other place.

You...complete me, @SCubb
Seriously, thanks very much for that reply. I had a little bit of a roller coaster too. At first, incredibly excited because I knew a little of the SA's and their awesome grads, then concern, but for the past couple of months I couldn't be more excited. As I mentioned at some point in this, it was a post from someone else that made me think others had similar thoughts that I figured I may as well try to tap into. I'm very impressed with DS's entire POV on this as well, and as I'm sure you have found yourself, the more you learn about it and think about your DS, it all makes a ton of sense of how it all fits together for him.

 

[UHBlackhawk]

The Department of Pure Evil can be an academic equalizer at USMA.

 

[tug_boat]

A topic that hasn't been touched as of yet is.......how do apply your talents. I know of some very smart people who fail miserably at applying their education. For some odd reason they just can't fit in.

Push Hard, Press Forward

 

[UHBlackhawk]

A topic that hasn't been touched as of yet is.......how do apply your talents. I know of some very smart people who fail miserably at applying their education. For some odd reason they just can't fit in.

Push Hard, Press Forward

Conversely, I’ve known (as I’m sure you have as well) many academically average students who are extremely talented and have outstanding careers. Even some December graduates and members of the “comma club” have had noteworthy careers.

 

[Soldiergriz]

A topic that hasn't been touched as of yet is.......how do apply your talents. I know of some very smart people who fail miserably at applying their education. For some odd reason they just can't fit in.

Push Hard, Press Forward

Conversely, I’ve known (as I’m sure you have as well) many academically average students who are extremely talented and have outstanding careers. Even some December graduates and members of the “comma club” have had noteworthy careers.

Yep...because the point of a West Point education is preparation to lead America's finest in close combat against a determined enemy. Physically....mentally....emotionally. Period.

 

[NJROTC-CC]

Yep...because the point of a West Point education is preparation to lead America's finest in close combat against a determined enemy. Physically....mentally....emotionally. Period.

It's not that simple. The U.S. Army is a huge organization. It's leaders need to be able to organize and lead what amounts to a giant corporation. They have to be educated enough to handle procurement, H.R., foreign relations, relationships with Congress, etc. WP grads may start as platoon leaders, but they need to be able to do so much more.

 

[Casey]

USMA will do everything it can to challenge your son if that's where he ends up in all aspects academics included, but some of that predicates on his internal motivation. What I noticed is that in validating classes (I validated everything at the time possible except for one class), I ended up in sections with the same general group of students in my core studies, and these folks were the brightest classmates I had that interacting with definitely made me a better person. One of the most intimidating classes I took was as a freshman being dropped into a mixed history class with seniors and realizing how inadequately prepared my writing was to compare to these folks despite being a good writer. The instructors knew they were working with advanced sections and made us work as a result. These sections typically were taught more frequently by permanent party (LTC/COL military instructors) or civilian faculty so the depth of knowledge and experience teaching was much deeper than the typical rotational faculty who are senior captains/majors fresh from graduate school. So in many ways, even at school there will be stratification based on abilities to ensure all cadets end up challenged. As we moved through the Academy, a group of us was selected for pursuit of graduate scholarships, and trust me, if you end up in that program, you will be beyond challenged in ways that definitely made me a better person and academic.

In your major, the opportunities are there for independent research, overloading classes if you want, etc. You generally have to go look for these opportunities, but they're there. I worked on independent research, published prior to graduation, and presented work at a conference prior to departing the Academy. Could I have skated and had a much easier time at the Academy if I hadn't opted to stay in some of the advanced versions of classes (international relations comes to mind...woof) or not pursued some of the optional course work that I completed? Most definitely, but that's half the fun of school. Figuring out what challenges you can and can't handle, and when you find something you can't, figuring it out anyways.

The trick is that while you're doing all of the above, you're also expected to be good at everything else. Academic studs are great; critical thinking is one of the most important skills an officer can have but it won't matter if you can't keep up with your soldiers or communicate effectively with them to be a good leader.

 

[NJDadofDSUSMA2024Hopeful]

USMA will do everything it can to challenge your son if that's where he ends up in all aspects academics included, but some of that predicates on his internal motivation. What I noticed is that in validating classes (I validated everything at the time possible except for one class), I ended up in sections with the same general group of students in my core studies, and these folks were the brightest classmates I had that interacting with definitely made me a better person. One of the most intimidating classes I took was as a freshman being dropped into a mixed history class with seniors and realizing how inadequately prepared my writing was to compare to these folks despite being a good writer. The instructors knew they were working with advanced sections and made us work as a result. These sections typically were taught more frequently by permanent party (LTC/COL military instructors) or civilian faculty so the depth of knowledge and experience teaching was much deeper than the typical rotational faculty who are senior captains/majors fresh from graduate school. So in many ways, even at school there will be stratification based on abilities to ensure all cadets end up challenged. As we moved through the Academy, a group of us was selected for pursuit of graduate scholarships, and trust me, if you end up in that program, you will be beyond challenged in ways that definitely made me a better person and academic.

In your major, the opportunities are there for independent research, overloading classes if you want, etc. You generally have to go look for these opportunities, but they're there. I worked on independent research, published prior to graduation, and presented work at a conference prior to departing the Academy. Could I have skated and had a much easier time at the Academy if I hadn't opted to stay in some of the advanced versions of classes (international relations comes to mind...woof) or not pursued some of the optional course work that I completed? Most definitely, but that's half the fun of school. Figuring out what challenges you can and can't handle, and when you find something you can't, figuring it out anyways.

The trick is that while you're doing all of the above, you're also expected to be good at everything else. Academic studs are great; critical thinking is one of the most important skills an officer can have but it won't matter if you can't keep up with your soldiers or communicate effectively with them to be a good leader.

Thank you, @Casey . Super helpful. If he ends up there and can perform academically and across the board, I think it's the most compelling and potentially transformational 4 years I can imagine.
Might I ask what you ended up majoring in and branching into? I know the two often aren't that related, but curious if you're willing to share.
Thank you again.

 

[Soldiergriz]

Yep...because the point of a West Point education is preparation to lead America's finest in close combat against a determined enemy. Physically....mentally....emotionally. Period.

It's not that simple. The U.S. Army is a huge organization. It's leaders need to be able to organize and lead what amounts to a giant corporation. They have to be educated enough to handle procurement, H.R., foreign relations, relationships with Congress, etc. WP grads may start as platoon leaders, but they need to be able to do so much more.

Those skills are learned through a series of institutional training, operational experiences, and self study...all over the course of a long career. Leading platoons is what the Army and nation requires of West Point graduates.

 

[Casey]

USMA will do everything it can to challenge your son if that's where he ends up in all aspects academics included, but some of that predicates on his internal motivation. What I noticed is that in validating classes (I validated everything at the time possible except for one class), I ended up in sections with the same general group of students in my core studies, and these folks were the brightest classmates I had that interacting with definitely made me a better person. One of the most intimidating classes I took was as a freshman being dropped into a mixed history class with seniors and realizing how inadequately prepared my writing was to compare to these folks despite being a good writer. The instructors knew they were working with advanced sections and made us work as a result. These sections typically were taught more frequently by permanent party (LTC/COL military instructors) or civilian faculty so the depth of knowledge and experience teaching was much deeper than the typical rotational faculty who are senior captains/majors fresh from graduate school. So in many ways, even at school there will be stratification based on abilities to ensure all cadets end up challenged. As we moved through the Academy, a group of us was selected for pursuit of graduate scholarships, and trust me, if you end up in that program, you will be beyond challenged in ways that definitely made me a better person and academic.

In your major, the opportunities are there for independent research, overloading classes if you want, etc. You generally have to go look for these opportunities, but they're there. I worked on independent research, published prior to graduation, and presented work at a conference prior to departing the Academy. Could I have skated and had a much easier time at the Academy if I hadn't opted to stay in some of the advanced versions of classes (international relations comes to mind...woof) or not pursued some of the optional course work that I completed? Most definitely, but that's half the fun of school. Figuring out what challenges you can and can't handle, and when you find something you can't, figuring it out anyways.

The trick is that while you're doing all of the above, you're also expected to be good at everything else. Academic studs are great; critical thinking is one of the most important skills an officer can have but it won't matter if you can't keep up with your soldiers or communicate effectively with them to be a good leader.

Thank you, @Casey . Super helpful. If he ends up there and can perform academically and across the board, I think it's the most compelling and potentially transformational 4 years I can imagine.
Might I ask what you ended up majoring in and branching into? I know the two often aren't that related, but curious if you're willing to share.
Thank you again.

I majored in mechanical engineering and branched Aviation. I don't use the major itself everyday in my job, but the system based processes and problem solving I was taught definitely do.
​

Yep...because the point of a West Point education is preparation to lead America's finest in close combat against a determined enemy. Physically....mentally....emotionally. Period.

It's not that simple. The U.S. Army is a huge organization. It's leaders need to be able to organize and lead what amounts to a giant corporation. They have to be educated enough to handle procurement, H.R., foreign relations, relationships with Congress, etc. WP grads may start as platoon leaders, but they need to be able to do so much more.

Those skills are learned through a series of institutional training, operational experiences, and self study...all over the course of a long career. Leading platoons is what the Army and nation requires of West Point graduates.

Most LT's don't walk straight into a platoon, and as a junior officer, if your branch has platoon time as its KD time for your development (there are quite a few that don't), it will be a fraction of your time as a junior officer. You're right that a lot of an officer's future development will be OTJ training, but I would argue West Point should definitely not just be setting you up for that first job. Its supposed to be setting the foundation for service to our nation as an officer. Those skills transcend a single job you're working if you're successful.

 

[Soldiergriz]

USMA will do everything it can to challenge your son if that's where he ends up in all aspects academics included, but some of that predicates on his internal motivation. What I noticed is that in validating classes (I validated everything at the time possible except for one class), I ended up in sections with the same general group of students in my core studies, and these folks were the brightest classmates I had that interacting with definitely made me a better person. One of the most intimidating classes I took was as a freshman being dropped into a mixed history class with seniors and realizing how inadequately prepared my writing was to compare to these folks despite being a good writer. The instructors knew they were working with advanced sections and made us work as a result. These sections typically were taught more frequently by permanent party (LTC/COL military instructors) or civilian faculty so the depth of knowledge and experience teaching was much deeper than the typical rotational faculty who are senior captains/majors fresh from graduate school. So in many ways, even at school there will be stratification based on abilities to ensure all cadets end up challenged. As we moved through the Academy, a group of us was selected for pursuit of graduate scholarships, and trust me, if you end up in that program, you will be beyond challenged in ways that definitely made me a better person and academic.

In your major, the opportunities are there for independent research, overloading classes if you want, etc. You generally have to go look for these opportunities, but they're there. I worked on independent research, published prior to graduation, and presented work at a conference prior to departing the Academy. Could I have skated and had a much easier time at the Academy if I hadn't opted to stay in some of the advanced versions of classes (international relations comes to mind...woof) or not pursued some of the optional course work that I completed? Most definitely, but that's half the fun of school. Figuring out what challenges you can and can't handle, and when you find something you can't, figuring it out anyways.

The trick is that while you're doing all of the above, you're also expected to be good at everything else. Academic studs are great; critical thinking is one of the most important skills an officer can have but it won't matter if you can't keep up with your soldiers or communicate effectively with them to be a good leader.

Thank you, @Casey . Super helpful. If he ends up there and can perform academically and across the board, I think it's the most compelling and potentially transformational 4 years I can imagine.
Might I ask what you ended up majoring in and branching into? I know the two often aren't that related, but curious if you're willing to share.
Thank you again.

I majored in mechanical engineering and branched Aviation. I don't use the major itself everyday in my job, but the system based processes and problem solving I was taught definitely do.
​

Yep...because the point of a West Point education is preparation to lead America's finest in close combat against a determined enemy. Physically....mentally....emotionally. Period.

It's not that simple. The U.S. Army is a huge organization. It's leaders need to be able to organize and lead what amounts to a giant corporation. They have to be educated enough to handle procurement, H.R., foreign relations, relationships with Congress, etc. WP grads may start as platoon leaders, but they need to be able to do so much more.

Those skills are learned through a series of institutional training, operational experiences, and self study...all over the course of a long career. Leading platoons is what the Army and nation requires of West Point graduates.

Most LT's don't walk straight into a platoon, and as a junior officer, if your branch has platoon time as its KD time for your development (there are quite a few that don't), it will be a fraction of your time as a junior officer. You're right that a lot of an officer's future development will be OTJ training, but I would argue West Point should definitely not just be setting you up for that first job. Its supposed to be setting the foundation for service to our nation as an officer. Those skills transcend a single job you're working if you're successful.

I agree with the things you said. However, the vast majority of WP grads will branch combat arms, then lead a platoon. Yes, they will spend additional time doing other jobs as a company grade officer. Then, they will attend additional schools to make the transition to Field Grade officer.

Ultimately, the Army requires 22 year old LTs to eggectively lead platoons upon graduation.

 

[CrewDad]

@NJDadofDSUSMA2024Hopeful. BTW Your call sign is extremely long. Here’s another perspective. I know what your thoughts are on the Academy vs. other top colleges namely in your view IVY MIT Stanford. But you cannot make parallel comparison at all because these two are very different type of institutions. You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

Just to set some expectations, USMA or other SAs are not colleges. They are all Leadership building institutions to develop our Nation’s military leaders. They are also top academic institutions. They are also, exception of USCGA and USMMA, D1 national Athletically competitive institutions. These Academies are looking for Scholars Leaders and Athletes who have attained the highest achievements in all these areas. More than 90% of USMA Cadets have been Varsity athletes. About 25% of each USMA Class have ACT/SAT 33-36/1500-1600. Prefer to Appoint top 1-20% of class. And the entire class have been a leader in school clubs, athletics, outside the school clubs special talent in many areas. So the Academies are looking for achievers and leaders who have the right balance of Scholar Leader and Athlete. Plus you must be in perfect medical health and pass or fail the CFA. And the SAs want to make sure you want to serve your country loyally without any mental reservation. And you must be a US Citizen. If dual you must renounce the other country Citizenship although in theory you can still keep it but still must renounce your loyalty and duty to the other country.

On the other hand, IVY, MIT, Stanford place the largest weight on Scholarship first. They will accept students who have ACT/SAT 31-36/1450-1600. Prefer to accept top 1%-10% of class. These schools want intellectually most curious students in the world. They also consider athletic talent special talent leadership talent alumni giving distinguished family connected students and etc. But you must have very strong academic talent to pass through the first gate. If you have this and other considerations are met then they want to assess how much you really want to come to their schools. And this needs to be obvious somewhere in your application.

The admissions process is very different at the Ivy MIT Stanford vs the SAs. The only common things the two types of institutions share are they want the best Academically prepared students in their schools.

Every year there are many Ivy MIT Stanford acceptees not getting Appointment to USMA and other SAs. Likewise the same other way around. There are 1-3 Cadets who leave each Ivy and MIT Stanford each year to start over at USMA and other SAs. Reasons vary. Some because they are reapplying. Some because they want to pursue their legacy heritage. Some because they realized USMA would have been better after all. What ever the reasons are USMA USNA USAFA are special places that attract special type of Cadets and Midshipmen. Training is intense, athletic and physical standards are high, military training and awareness is 24/7 for 4 years while on duty at the Academies. So time management attitude to follow orders while balancing your academics are big challenges. Academic preparations at the SAs are also in the nation’s top standard. Although I would agree IVY MIT Stanford offer more academic bandwidth in variety and research. The toughest part being a Cadet or Midshipmen is that you have less time to spend on academics due to being a full time military, athlete, leader in constant training under watchful eyes of the upperclassmen and company COs. Your academic counts 60% of your Overall Order of Merit and class ranking. Leadership counts 30%, fitness counts 10%. Ivy is nothing like this.

I studied at HYCS. And I interview prospective students to these schools. When my DS applied in 2017 from NY3 which is one of the most competitive districts in the country, he had all the qualities and more for the Ivy MIT Stanford. But for him, I recommended the Academies hands down because it is the best place to develop Scholar Leader Athlete. Plus the West Point and Annapolis brand are more revered in combination with graduate school degrees from HYCSM than HYCSM + HYCSM. After leaving the military West Point and Annapolis grads who did well at their academies and had a very successful career with an MBA JD PhD MD from top 10-20 Graduate Schools in the country do extraordinarily well. They work for Goldman Sachs Morgan Stanley McKinsey Bain or Bain Capital KKR Blackstone Black Rock Boeing Lockheed Martin Amazon Google Apple Facebook or top law firms and medical research universities. You name it they are highly desired. Because they bring perceived and real trained leadership that Ivy MIT Stanford do not teach at their undergraduate schools unless they are enrolled in ROTC Programs and other business leadership programs with intensive business internships. Even than business internship during college is nothing like the military leadership training.

I will stop here because I can go on and on why I think the SAs are better places for students who want military college experience and not a traditional college experience. And for those who want normal college experience, ROTC at Civ schools would be the better choice. You should determine which learning environment your child can excel, Military Academic or Traditional College. Once they commission from either WP or Civ colleges they all become Butter Bars and need to perform to get ahead in their military careers.

 

[NJDadofDSUSMA2024Hopeful]

@NJDadofDSUSMA2024Hopeful. BTW Your call sign is extremely long. Here’s another perspective. I know what your thoughts are on the Academy vs. other top colleges namely in your view IVY MIT Stanford. But you cannot make parallel comparison at all because these two are very different type of institutions. You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

Just to set some expectations, USMA or other SAs are not colleges. They are all Leadership building institutions to develop our Nation’s military leaders. They are also top academic institutions. They are also, exception of USCGA and USMMA, D1 national Athletically competitive institutions. These Academies are looking for Scholars Leaders and Athletes who have attained the highest achievements in all these areas. More than 90% of USMA Cadets have been Varsity athletes. About 25% of each USMA Class have ACT/SAT 33-36/1500-1600. Prefer to Appoint top 1-20% of class. And the entire class have been a leader in school clubs, athletics, outside the school clubs special talent in many areas. So the Academies are looking for achievers and leaders who have the right balance of Scholar Leader and Athlete. Plus you must be in perfect medical health and pass or fail the CFA. And the SAs want to make sure you want to serve your country loyally without any mental reservation. And you must be a US Citizen. If dual you must renounce the other country Citizenship although in theory you can still keep it but still must renounce your loyalty and duty to the other country.

On the other hand, IVY, MIT, Stanford place the largest weight on Scholarship first. They will accept students who have ACT/SAT 31-36/1450-1600. Prefer to accept top 1%-10% of class. These schools want intellectually most curious students in the world. They also consider athletic talent special talent leadership talent alumni giving distinguished family connected students and etc. But you must have very strong academic talent to pass through the first gate. If you have this and other considerations are met then they want to assess how much you really want to come to their schools. And this needs to be obvious somewhere in your application.

The admissions process is very different at the Ivy MIT Stanford vs the SAs. The only common things the two types of institutions share are they want the best Academically prepared students in their schools.

Every year there are many Ivy MIT Stanford acceptees not getting Appointment to USMA and other SAs. Likewise the same other way around. There are 1-3 Cadets who leave each Ivy and MIT Stanford each year to start over at USMA and other SAs. Reasons vary. Some because they are reapplying. Some because they want to pursue their legacy heritage. Some because they realized USMA would have been better after all. What ever the reasons are USMA USNA USAFA are special places that attract special type of Cadets and Midshipmen. Training is intense, athletic and physical standards are high, military training and awareness is 24/7 for 4 years while on duty at the Academies. So time management attitude to follow orders while balancing your academics are big challenges. Academic preparations at the SAs are also in the nation’s top standard. Although I would agree IVY MIT Stanford offer more academic bandwidth in variety and research. The toughest part being a Cadet or Midshipmen is that you have less time to spend on academics due to being a full time military, athlete, leader in constant training under watchful eyes of the upperclassmen and company COs. Your academic counts 60% of your Overall Order of Merit and class ranking. Leadership counts 30%, fitness counts 10%. Ivy is nothing like this.

I studied at HYCS. And I interview prospective students to these schools. When my DS applied in 2017 from NY3 which is one of the most competitive districts in the country, he had all the qualities and more for the Ivy MIT Stanford. But for him, I recommended the Academies hands down because it is the best place to develop Scholar Leader Athlete. Plus the West Point and Annapolis brand are more revered in combination with graduate school degrees from HYCSM than HYCSM + HYCSM. After leaving the military West Point and Annapolis grads who did well at their academies and had a very successful career with an MBA JD PhD MD from top 10-20 Graduate Schools in the country do extraordinarily well. They work for Goldman Sachs Morgan Stanley McKinsey Bain or Bain Capital KKR Blackstone Black Rock Boeing Lockheed Martin Amazon Google Apple Facebook or top law firms and medical research universities. You name it they are highly desired. Because they bring perceived and real trained leadership that Ivy MIT Stanford do not teach at their undergraduate schools unless they are enrolled in ROTC Programs and other business leadership programs with intensive business internships. Even than business internship during college is nothing like the military leadership training.

I will stop here because I can go on and on why I think the SAs are better places for students who want military college experience and not a traditional college experience. And for those who want normal college experience, ROTC at Civ schools would be the better choice. You should determine which learning environment your child can excel, Military Academic or Traditional College. Once they commission from either WP or Civ colleges they all become Butter Bars and need to perform to get ahead in their military careers.

Thanks, @CrewDad
Yes, probably not the best call sign choice. I probably should have gone with my original idea, SgtHulkaFan.
Your answer is consistent with what I've thought from the beginning and has been validated here. My original question was to ask how other high-performing students actually felt about the classroom environment. Because despite all of the other attributes that make USMA and its cadets overall fantastic, the classroom environment is obviously very important and I would want DS to get a lot out of it. Sounds like others' DS/DD kids were able to take advantage of all of the ways that USMA provides challenging and engaging opportunities for the kids who come in with stronger academic backgrounds.

 

[CrewDad]

There is no shortage of intellectual capacity by Cadets to push the limits of academic offering at West Point. I’ll offer several examples. Each year many students from New York’s finest if not the nation’s finest STEM Students from Brooklyn Tech, Stuyvesant, Bronx Science enroll at West Point. These students had the choice at MIT, Columbia, Princeton, Cornell. Obviously the Ivy offers extraordinary scholarship opportunity with some of the best in class infrastructure and professors. Nevertheless, these fine young men and women choose West Point for many good reasons. One of them are academic. West Point offers one of the finest Engineering programs at the undergraduate level. All entering high school students including from the finest programs in the nation will struggle to keep up academically. Sometimes because they are less prepared. Sometimes because they have to multitask with other responsibilities. Sometimes because they have bad or tough instructors. Some of my classmates at these STEM Schools were already Chemical Engineering, Physics, and Math majors in high school. They had 2 years of college Chemistry including Org Chem and Bio Chem, 2 years of Physics including Thermo Dynamics, and 4 semesters of Calculus including Multivariable and Applied Algebra and Econometrics. Yet they struggled in Plebe year because they had to balance their academics with military and Academy responsibilities. Yes some placed out of Plebe core and took advanced level Physics and Math but they still struggled overall to keep up to the level they were used to. They were all challenged to be a Good Cadet and a “very good student.” In fact all of them were very good students leaving their high schools with high SAT. Few had 1600 and 99 average at these STEM schools. Few of them were accepted to MIT Columbia Princeton and Stanford engineering schools. Few regretted they should have attended these schools admitting it would have been easier for them at the Ivy because they would not had to deal with the Academy and military responsibilities 24/7. And that’s very true. They all graduated with Sup and Dant’s Honors and they all went on to MIT Harvard Columbia Stanford for grad schools and all are doing very well. And many feel that they received 360 degrees well rounded training at West Point and the Naval Academy to be better persons today. They also admit that the brand value of Annapolis and West Point with their careers in the military in combination with top grad school degrees gave them the edge in their careers. They served in Infantry MI and as Pilots.

I hope I was able to fill in some holes in your original question. Your son sounds like a strong candidate to West Point and other SAs and selective schools. I hope he get his wishes. Please don’t forget to also apply to ROTC Programs as his plan B and C. Getting into West Point, Naval Academy, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Stanford is never a sure thing. When my DS was applying to the Academies and few highly selective schools from a highly selective district, only 3 received Appointment to the Naval Academy and 4 to West Point, 4 to Air Force Academy out of about 1,000 applicants who applied to SAs. 2 of 3 to Naval Academy were Appointed with Presidential Noms and only 1 was Appointed with Congressional. Similarly 1 was Appointed with a Senatorial, 1 with Congressional Rep, 1 SecArmy, 1 Presidential to West Point. Normally 1-2 get Appointed with Rep Nom. So since you’re in a highly competitive district it will be a rat race for the Noms. In our district those who did not get Appointment went on to Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Cornell, Columbia and other selective schools. I hope this sheds more light to what to expect in your district. Best wishes to your son and the family quarterbacking him all the way to his successful application and Appointment to West Point and other great options.

 

[jebdad]

He said he doesn’t want to go to a college where people waste a lot of time

I got a kick out of the above comment. People might have different opinions on what wasting time is but things like inspection concerns over dust on the top of your drawer frame or whether your drain stopper is up or down..... Those may be universally accepted as a waste of time by most 18-22 year olds. If your son doesn't like his time wasted, he might not like life at a SA. Jokes aside, I imagine you were really referring to kids who choose to waste their own time and are not serious about their academics.

While academics may be a good chunk of the admissions puzzle, I submit its much less of the success puzzle once at USMA. If like most, your son too will be more concerned with how to be a jack of all trades and master of none.

 

[jl123]

The group of those concerned that others are not top tier academically will be joined by another group concerned about those not top tier athletically, and a third group concerned about those not super gung ho militarily.

The reality is that each group will reach are far greater potential by working with the other two groups at USMA than they would have at a civilian university (without ROTC). Talk to a number of cadets as Plebes and then talk to the same cadets as Firsties. The growth in those three years is comparable to what college students achieve well into their civilian work careers.

 

[NJDadofDSUSMA2024Hopeful]

@jebdad I talked to him about those types of duties early on and he has definitely bought into the idea that they are part of the process of building character and fitting into the organization as a whole.