VMI and the Citadel

First, The Citadel, The. :wink:

bob80q said:
First for the record.......as of the moment The Citadel has produced 270 Flag Officers, VMI 262. And no, VMI does not get any guaranteed BUDs slots; their grads compete for them like every other ROTC commissionee.
As for the issue of having civilians on campus (in the evening only) remember that The Citadel has a graduate school, VMI does not; they also have MECEPS and STA-21s...
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That's a great stat on Flag Officers. Probably VMI produces more per graduate but the raw score is on the side of The Citadel.

I pretty much came here to talk about this, the "civilian" population on The Citadel campus during the day is pretty much non-existent. There are several groups allowed to take classes during the day: cadets, MECEPS/STA-21s, six-year cadets, and, apparently, some service veterans. Only cadets are awarded the much coveted Ring. Other graduates may opt to get a ring for their specific program.

The number of MECEPS is quite low and I only had classes with one. I had a few STA-21s in my EE classes. The only other interaction (outside of class) that cadets have with MECEPS/STA-21s is during ROTC events.

Cadets are not allowed (or at least weren't in 2005) to take night classes at all. I had taken every class in my major and wanted to take grad level courses. Absolutely verboten.

The student-faculty ratio at The Citadel is great and hovers between 13:1 and 15:1. I had one class with a 4:1 ratio and many in my major with less than 10:1. The amount of student-teacher time was excellent. Couple that with the fact that almost every single teacher has the highest degree offered in their field: usually a PhD.

The Citadel's college of engineering is 21st in the nation.

I think, in fact, that all of the senior military academies are pretty even in most respects. I feel that VMI is probably the most austere.

And then, there's Charleston. Great weather, great food, good beaches. Beautiful girls in a nearby college. Nearby airport. Charleston sells itself.

Sources: I had some, but my post count is two. Search "The Citadel Points of Pride" for some of them.
 
The Citadel's college of engineering is 21st in the nation.


They've moved up a few notches in the latest US News and World Report. The Citadel's undergraduate engeneering school is now ranked 17th in the nation.
 
the Civil Engineering program is now ranked 8th best in the US, they will also be starting a Mechanical Engineering program this fall
 
This is something I wanted to know too, because the Citadel has always been my plan if I don't get into West Point, and I think my mom would like that since it is only about an hour and a half away. Thanks for posting.

Ashleigh
 
I also wanted to talk about the honor system. As far as I know The Citadel's honor system is as rigorous as any other.

The Citadel no longer practices the "drumming out" ceremony for several reasons both practical and dogmatic.

The practicality comes in when it seems between 20-30 ceremonies would need to performed, in the modern corps, yearly. Rousting out the entire corps (2400+ cadets) 2-3 times a month early in the morning for this would be a bit excessive.

The second is the current pattern of thought on the issue. As taught by the honor court there is no need to disgrace or reject further those that are found guilty of an honor violation. They have simply been measured and found wanting. They are cut away and gone. In general names are forgotten and the Corps moves on.

I had a classmate in my company who was well liked and accepted. He was one of the 18 or so of us who went and got tattoos together. Then he committed an honor violation. I went to the trial and thought the court made a bad call. It felt like the professor, the witness, had a bit of a problem with the guy. Even still he was found guilty, kicked out, and he was gone. Nobody really mentions him anymore. We don't reach out to him. He is cut off from the family. I don't really think that badly of him. It's sad really. Just... sad.
 
WienerDog said:
How is your son doing so far? My son has been accepted and was just there for the weekend competing for the Scholarship competition. He loved the place and is really hoping for a scholarship. He, too has applied to USMA and USNA. He has attended West Points summer program and has seen USMA at West Poiont. He loves West Point as well. Though, I believe he may choose Citadel if chosen for a scholarship. Sounds like your son is pleased with his decision.
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Sorry WienerDog, I didn't see your post.

My DS is doing fine. Before we dropped him off, we had a talk about his excpectations as far as what to expect being a knob. He expressed thoughts of not being ready to leave life as he knew it at home. I told him he was ready, he had done all he could do in our small rural community and that it was time, HIS time. I asked how he would feel being, in my words, lower than dirt. His response was that he wouldn't mind at all as this is just the way the "system" works. (In his words, "It's a game Mom"). Having the right mindset going in does a world of good.

DS adjusted to the 4th class system very well. He's done very well academically for the first semester. He has gotten involved in some extra-curricular activities and well as applying to study abroad this summer. Currently he is on a trip to New Orleans for a drill competition.

Overall, I am very pleased with his efforts. It's tough letting them take the reigns but he pretty much took over and has run with the whole thing.
 
RoxC40 said:
Hi everyone
I enjoyed reading the posts on this thread and noticed the latest entry was from 2010. Can anyone provide an updated comparison? My son wanted to attend West Point since he was 8 - he has an open file but did not receive acceptance yet. He has received acceptance to The Citadel and we did an overnight visit. While it was an eye opener for him, he's still passionate about attending. I have heard a few disturbing stories - I say stories because I can't confirm facts - regarding cadet life. Can anyone ease a mother's anxiety with some facts? Is it as bad as people say? What strategies can anyone offer to my son to stay focused and "survive" freshman year.
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From a Mother's perspective The Citadel is not as bad as the stories you read or hear.

My DS wanted to go to AFA from the time he was 8 yrs. old also. He applied last year and made it up to the final cut. He was dead set on reapplying to AFA this year. In the meantime he settled on The Citadel for a number of reasons. As a Mother, I was worried. Especially when I got "those" looks from people (particularly Men) when they found out he was going to go there. As of now, he likes where he is and had decided to stay

Trust me, the fear of the unknown was much worse than the reality.

As long as your DS has the right mindset going in, he'll be fine. I believe that to be true for any of the Military Academies.

My DS's strategy was to blend in as well as he could, not stand out. Other than that, I dont' know because he doesn't tell me much about life as a knob. Apparently, that information is for them only. He said I didn't need to know so I leave it at that!
 
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peoples misperceptions about El Cid are based on what they have read in Conroy novels and/or the occasional hatchet job newspaper article or TV story. Lots of kids go to The Citadel, VMI and the FSAs for the wrong reasons, it is something you have to want to do not something you are pressured into doing by parents or family members who are grads. Great schools but not for everybody; too many kids see college as one big party and a chance to have a good time, if you are serious about getting a good education and learning lessons not taught at other colleges it is a great opportunity. For me the strict lifestyle and lack of distractions that exist at other colleges was a big help since I wasnt the most serious student in high school. No fraternities, no drinking, mandatory quiet hours in the barracks - all a good thing. No coincidence that the 4 year graduation rate at The Citadel is more than twice the national average.
 
Citadel vs VMI

I am a Citadel grad, and volunteer with the Citadel Admissions Office in the Mid-Atlantic area. The two colleges have different cadet traditions, but if you are serious about earning a military commission, the Cadet life is less of a factor than is your academic performance and the results of your Junior year summer performance at the required ROTC camp. These will determine your selection for active duty, your branch, and your assignment. Both colleges are so smal l that they hardly matter as far as "ring knocking" in the service. I was on active duty and in the Reserves in the Army for 8 years and can count on the fingers of one hand the Citadel grads I ran into, and I met only 1 VMI grad in those 8 years.

Choose one of these colleges only if you want to attend a small college. VMI. Has about 1,600 Cadet undergraduates. The Citadel has 2,300 Cadet undergraduates, about 20 MECEPS (active duty Marines), and 20 or so active duty Navy. As for civilians, these are only night school graduate or or undergraduates who Cadets never see. There is a veteranns program for returning cadets who left to deploy with their Reserve or National Guard units that eere called to active duty, or a select few veterans who the college has selected because of their ability to add to the real world experiences for Cadets. Few cadets will ever see them. But if they do, they will be rewarded.
 
Agreed, both schools are smaller--VMI has 1500 cadets compared to 2300 at the Citadel. The veteran's programs are different at the schools: at VMI, active duty Marines/navy and reservists/veterans must live in barracks and survive the ratline... They are VMI cadets, just like everyone else--no exceptions. As far as impact of fellow grads on careers, etc., I worked with many VMI grads during my career and the Chief of Staff was a VMI grad. From my experience, as VMI grads, we looked after each other and we expected/demanded the highest standards from each other. However, I would not refer to ourselves as ring knockers, we just demanded more from each other to complete the mission, no exceptions. On many deployments to the Middle East and during Tomodachi (earthquake/tsunami efforts in Japan) I worked with many VMI grads and a few Brother Rats as well.

VMI graduates around 300 cadets per year while the Citadel is approx 500 cadets and 400 civilian students, so they are smaller schools. However, the Citadel is expanding and it seems to be good for the school. The current president and BOV support expanding the civilian programs to generate funds for the school and make the Citadel athletic programs more competitive. Due to this expansion and the addition of a Citadel online program, the Citadel is projected to give more diplomas to civilian grads than cadets in 2016. This is a money-maker for the school and it expands the support base inside and outside Charleston. It may be great for the Citadel.
Obviously, the veteran's programs are excellent at both schools and at other SMCs as well.
However, in terms of civilian programs, I don't think VMI will ever support graduate programs. There may be some great value added from these types of programs but I don't think VMI grads would be supportive.
 
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Citadel graduates aren't supportive of the evening civilian programs but our hands are tied. The SC Legislature directed The Citadel in the early 70's to offer evening civilian programs to citizens of the Lowcountry. Most grads are not happy about how these programs are marketed and would prefer that they not exist but the current economic reality in SC demands that we continue to offer civilian opportunities.
 
Aren't there two Citadel rings, one for the cadets and the other for civilians?
 
Lineinthesand:

Yes there are two different rings, and different diplomas. Only Cadets are awarded the Cadet Ring and diploma.

The evening graduate school and evening undergraduate programs have been run by the college for over 40 years, so the effort to portray them as somehow new or as suddenly having a negative effect on the Cadet experience, is pretty silly and immature. These programs are completely separate from the campus based Corps of Cadets and have different carriculums and graduation requirements.

As for veteran students, there are at most 60 - 80 non-cadet veterans, including several former cadets who left the college to join their Reserve or National Guard units deploying to Iraq or Afghanistan. Few cadets come in contact with them in the classroom, but those who do benefit from the real world experiences they bring with them. Other than these individuals, there is a small MECEP contingent of enlisted Marines and a few Navy enlisted, selected to attend the college. These men and women add significantly to the NROTC detachment's training of Cadets - bringing real world experiences to the ROTC program from the enlisted non-com perspective - exactly what these young men and women need to prepare them to be effective officers and not just Mickey Mouse military school dorks.

As far as the evening programs are concerned, enrollment in these non-traditional programs has been fairly constant over the 40 years they have been offered by The Citadel. These programs benefit career oriented students who work during the day and attend night school to improve themselves. Hope this helps.
 
glen said:
Lineinthesand:

Yes there are two different rings, and different diplomas. Only Cadets are awarded the Cadet Ring and diploma.

The evening graduate school and evening undergraduate programs have been run by the college for over 40 years, so the effort to portray them as somehow new or as suddenly having a negative effect on the Cadet experience, is pretty silly and immature. These programs are completely separate from the campus based Corps of Cadets and have different carriculums and graduation requirements.

As for veteran students, there are at most 60 - 80 non-cadet veterans, including several former cadets who left the college to join their Reserve or National Guard units deploying to Iraq or Afghanistan. Few cadets come in contact with them in the classroom, but those who do benefit from the real world experiences they bring with them. Other than these individuals, there is a small MECEP contingent of enlisted Marines and a few Navy enlisted, selected to attend the college. These men and women add significantly to the NROTC detachment's training of Cadets - bringing real world experiences to the ROTC program from the enlisted non-com perspective - exactly what these young men and women need to prepare them to be effective officers and not just Mickey Mouse military school dorks.

As far as the evening programs are concerned, enrollment in these non-traditional programs has been fairly constant over the 40 years they have been offered by The Citadel. These programs benefit career oriented students who work during the day and attend night school to improve themselves. Hope this helps.
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Alrighty then...
Bottom line: The enrollment in these non traditional programs at the Citadel has increased significantly in the last 10 years, and the school benefits financially... The non-cadets get rings and play on the athletic teams now--they are a part of the school and no doubt they care about the Citadel. In the next year or so, there will be more civilian grads getting Citadel diplomas than cadet grads, and this may be great news, especially if it helps the Citadel financially. Va Tech, Texas A&M, and Norwich have been doing this for many years as well and it has worked out great for them.
 
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Ok, I just have to ask a question.

Why is there such a long standing debate and concern over whether one SMC has civilian students and another doesn't.

The majority of Army officers are commissioned through completely civilian colleges, why all the concern over civilians at a SMC. I really do not intend to offend anyone, it is just something I really do not understand.
 
I'm just a cluelssparent and I think I understand. Wish I had one of those beat the dead horse images to insert here :) But yes it is obvious The Citadel Board is headed in that direction VT. AM etc......I am stating it as an observation "I suspect" NAS has another motive entirely beating it here..........
 
glen said:
Lineinthesand:

Yes there are two different rings, and different diplomas. Only Cadets are awarded the Cadet Ring and diploma.

These men and women add significantly to the NROTC detachment's training of Cadets - bringing real world experiences to the ROTC program from the enlisted non-com perspective - exactly what these young men and women need to prepare them to be effective officers and not just Mickey Mouse military school dorks.
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There is no "dead horse agenda" here, clueless parent, but thanks for that. It's just interesting that certain folks want to portray these as small "veterans" programs, minimal in scope, all the while referring to other programs as "Mickey Mouse", etc. It's simply false information. These new programs include online programs. At the end of the day, giving out more diplomas for these programs than cadet diplomas isn't minimal. These programs appear to be significant, and they may be great for the school--that's all... And here's a shovel if anyone wants to bury this dead beast!
 
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Again, civilian programs at The Citadel have zero impact on a cadet during his/her 4 years. For those considering The Citadel please do yourself a favor and talk with an alum and pay no attention to silly discussions about civilian programs.
 
So the cadet ring says "The Military College of SC" while the civilian ring says "The Citadel" right?

Excuse my focus on the ring, googling the two sent me on the path of looking up other rings, including those GIANT VMI ones.
 
nas needs to check facts rather than continuing his campaign of deliberate disinformation; this past school year The Citadel graduated 522 cadets, 58 from the EUP and awarded 212 Masters Degreesl, there will not be 'more civilian graduates tan cadet' anytime soon.
 
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