VMI Parents Weekend Report
- Thread starter easter2
- Start date
repeat to make sure interested parents get the word
I posted this on other thread. I feel it necessary to repost - this larger situation (reports, VMI's handling of activities, the transparency of Intitute)
I received this message from the Johnson's, who are the parent council co-presidents this year:
"Hello PC Members,
Many of you have probably heard of the "Rat Riot" that occurred this past Sunday evening. Rumors have started coming in and you will no doubt be contacted by worried parents.
These are the details I have been able to put together from a couple different sources at VMI.
The Rats were supposed to be coming down to a Sweat Party given by the Thirds. In keeping with a VMI tradition, the Rats attempted to throw the Thirds hays into the courtyard. The Commandant's Staff got wind of the event and in trying to keep the situation under control, sent the Cadre to stand at the stairwells of 3rd stoop to block the Rats from "rioting." As the situation ensued, groups of energetic Rats turned into mobs and a fight for control of the situation ensued.
Several students received cuts and bruises (both Cadre and Rats), a few went to the Post hospital, and one female student received a concussion. No broken bones or more serious injuries were reported. Please do your best to allay the worries of parents that may contact you about this. .
Investigations are under way and all is reported back to normal. More details will follow as they become available."
VMI openly, honestly, handles all situations that arise at the Institute.
Please use the VMI website tab for PC Council, if you need to - the council is there to assist the Institute as the first, but NOT the last, line of communication for VMI parents.
linda, larry's mom
I posted this on other thread. I feel it necessary to repost - this larger situation (reports, VMI's handling of activities, the transparency of Intitute)
I received this message from the Johnson's, who are the parent council co-presidents this year:
"Hello PC Members,
Many of you have probably heard of the "Rat Riot" that occurred this past Sunday evening. Rumors have started coming in and you will no doubt be contacted by worried parents.
These are the details I have been able to put together from a couple different sources at VMI.
The Rats were supposed to be coming down to a Sweat Party given by the Thirds. In keeping with a VMI tradition, the Rats attempted to throw the Thirds hays into the courtyard. The Commandant's Staff got wind of the event and in trying to keep the situation under control, sent the Cadre to stand at the stairwells of 3rd stoop to block the Rats from "rioting." As the situation ensued, groups of energetic Rats turned into mobs and a fight for control of the situation ensued.
Several students received cuts and bruises (both Cadre and Rats), a few went to the Post hospital, and one female student received a concussion. No broken bones or more serious injuries were reported. Please do your best to allay the worries of parents that may contact you about this. .
Investigations are under way and all is reported back to normal. More details will follow as they become available."
VMI openly, honestly, handles all situations that arise at the Institute.
Please use the VMI website tab for PC Council, if you need to - the council is there to assist the Institute as the first, but NOT the last, line of communication for VMI parents.
linda, larry's mom
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Rat Riot
As a USNA graduate and former Honor Board member, I am appalled by the unofficial acceptance of Rat Riots. The first responsibility of every ship’s captain is morale. A Rat Riot represents nothing less than a mutiny. A Rat Riot also indicates a leadership failure from top to bottom. I was there for Parents’ Weekend and at the football game I overheard several upperclassmen openly promoting the impending riot. Additionally, some of the comments in this forum glossing over last week’s riot are part of the problem. No one will stand up and recognize that a Rat Riot really indicates a total breakdown in discipline. Ironically, if a rat riot is supposed to stimulate class unity, then why are the rat leaders being singled out for severe punishment? This hypocrisy in so-called leadership is an exceptionally poor example of CYA.
FYI I have never heard of this sort of out-of-control behavior at either USNA or USAFA where I was an exchange student. No, it is not the norm at other colleges.
As a USNA graduate and former Honor Board member, I am appalled by the unofficial acceptance of Rat Riots. The first responsibility of every ship’s captain is morale. A Rat Riot represents nothing less than a mutiny. A Rat Riot also indicates a leadership failure from top to bottom. I was there for Parents’ Weekend and at the football game I overheard several upperclassmen openly promoting the impending riot. Additionally, some of the comments in this forum glossing over last week’s riot are part of the problem. No one will stand up and recognize that a Rat Riot really indicates a total breakdown in discipline. Ironically, if a rat riot is supposed to stimulate class unity, then why are the rat leaders being singled out for severe punishment? This hypocrisy in so-called leadership is an exceptionally poor example of CYA.
FYI I have never heard of this sort of out-of-control behavior at either USNA or USAFA where I was an exchange student. No, it is not the norm at other colleges.
USNA Alum: I hear you. Take a look at the "rat riot" thread where the following was posted:
"Parents Council—
Some of you have heard from concerned parents regarding Sunday night’s “Rat riot” event. Here is some information for your use and dissemination.
On Sunday evening at approximately 11:15 PM the Rats were being escorted by cadre to Cocke Hall for an authorized, scheduled 12 minute sweat party. The Third Class was absent from barracks and in Cocke Hall. As they were leaving the fourth stoop, one company of Rats “broke free” and started going to the rooms on the third stoop. This quickly progressed throughout barracks and then we had Rats entering Third Class rooms, whereupon they began throwing hays and other items into the courtyards. When this happened, cadre reacted to quell it and First Classmen went up to the third stoop to assist. During the course of getting them out of the Third Class rooms, off the third stoop, and back up to their rooms, there were some injuries—fortunately not severe.
This event is completely unacceptable. Within the Corps, the First Class leadership launched an investigation which uncovered several Rats who had planned and instigated this. Those cases are being handled by the General Committee system, and already some punishments have been handed down for those responsible. It is clear from Facebook entries who the instigators were. We will also deal accordingly if we discover any upper class cadets involved in instigating this incident.
The Commandant’s staff and the Inspector General (Col Grace) are also investigating. In particular, the IG is investigating an incident leading to one of the injuries. Any upper class cadet found responsible for misconduct leading to an injury will be dealt with swiftly. That investigation is nearing conclusion. On Wednesday, 19 October the Commandant addressed this with the Rat Class in JM Hall. He has also spoken to the First Class leadership at length about this.
“Rat Riots” are something that started a few years ago. This isn’t a long time tradition like Break-out or anything of the sort. Within the Corps, it has been viewed as somewhat of a “tradition” that helps Rats bond into a class. It is not approved, authorized, encouraged, or sanctioned at all by VMI or its leadership. In most prior occasions, the Rats would “run amok” for a bit and then go back to their rooms. This year, it turned somewhat combative and some injuries occurred during the ensuing melee, which we will not accept. Fortunately, this “tradition” only occurs once a year.
This is an issue of concern that we take very seriously for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the safety of cadets. We will work with the three classes and their leadership later this year in preparation for next year, and then work this in detail with next year’s Rats and the returning Old Corps.
We are also well aware that Rats are asked by many “When are you going to have your Rat Riot?” We know that some of those asking include parents, alumni, and cadets. We will address this as well in the summer newsletter to get parents to assist in squeezing out this “tradition.”
If you have any questions, please contact either the Chief of Staff or Inspector General. If any particular parents wish to speak to them or email them, they may do so directly. I’ll conclude by saying we are all disappointed in this event. It is not what VMI stands for, nor will we tolerate it.Thank you for assisting on this matter.
From the Chief of Staff
William R. Grace Colonel USMC (Ret)
VMI Inspector General and Title IX Coordinator
Parents Council Liaison
Duty Phone 540 464-7072
Fax 540 464-7056"
I have a thousand different things that I want to say to tell you that you are completely and totally off-base with this post (don't worry pennak, not trying to justify the alleged physical altercation aspect), but I promised someone I would not. Presumably if you were up there you are a parent of a current cadet. If your kid makes it, ask him to explain it to you in a few years after he has been able to gain the perspective of 4 years in barracks and has had an opportunity to fully observe and experience the tension between classes and the tension between the corps and the administration and why occasional and minor episodes of protest against that authority with knowledge of harsh punishment to come is a part of the VMI experience. It is not an academy, and it should not try to be, nor should it want to be.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but my understanding is 52% of your graduating classes receive commissions in the military. No matter how you try to rationalize a rat riot, it is still a mutiny. This type of behavior has no place in a school where every cadet has to be a member of the ROTC.
Incidentally, you are doing yourself a tremendous deservice by implying that I don't understand tensions within a military school.
Incidentally, you are doing yourself a tremendous deservice by implying that I don't understand tensions within a military school.
Agreed....like I have stated myself, and not as an alum even but as a Rat Mom, the throwing hays over the rail seems to be a norm..the Rats expect and deserve the punishment given out at the end and have been working all week on that punishment. Anything over the top is being dealt with as needed by the Admin and I have no doubt that it is being handled appropriately.
Nothing glossed over in my mind--these cadets are adults and are treated as such. I have read things since the day my DS said he wanted to go to VMI--nothing sugar coated, nothing hidden. Unless something drastic happens, I expect no contact from the school.
My local state college handled a 'gathering' of a back to school party with 1000+ drunk college kids, broken glass, assaults and general mayhem by having them all leave the complex, get in their cars and go elsewhere... the kids of course learned nothing. Having them drive when drinking all day was mind blowing to me
So in essence at least my DS learned that there are repercussions for actions, even from his fellow BR-may be worth it to show backbone and if over the top, they will come down on ya. A better lesson learned than the non-lesson in my own hometown.
Nothing glossed over in my mind--these cadets are adults and are treated as such. I have read things since the day my DS said he wanted to go to VMI--nothing sugar coated, nothing hidden. Unless something drastic happens, I expect no contact from the school.
My local state college handled a 'gathering' of a back to school party with 1000+ drunk college kids, broken glass, assaults and general mayhem by having them all leave the complex, get in their cars and go elsewhere... the kids of course learned nothing. Having them drive when drinking all day was mind blowing to me
So in essence at least my DS learned that there are repercussions for actions, even from his fellow BR-may be worth it to show backbone and if over the top, they will come down on ya. A better lesson learned than the non-lesson in my own hometown.
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You can call this whatever you want. The Rats are being punished, the upperclassman are being punished as appropriate, The IG has told you that they are responding & that the Commandant and tacstaff found the "tradition" unsupportable and are taking steps to make sure that it dies. Just about 60% of the graduating class of 2011 will have commissions when the last graduates get their diploma in Dec - they will have worked hard for them and in some cases they will have paid for being stupid with discipline that is a darn sight more rigorous than at most of the schools in the country to include one or two where the entire Student body is on the payroll.
Just as disciplinary issues at some of the SA's over the years (and all of them have had them) don't get resolved in public neither will these though Easter2 has the right lesson:
Just as disciplinary issues at some of the SA's over the years (and all of them have had them) don't get resolved in public neither will these though Easter2 has the right lesson:
As it is the IG already told us where they are coming from. Maybe we should have the Cadets or the administration walk the plank but the Maury River isn't really that deep and they will probably just float to the river bank. In the meantime perhaps we could assume that the Commandant and IG are doing what they said and are in fact dealing appropriately with the activity on last Sunday. I rather believe that a Marine Colonel IG, An Army Colonel Commandant , and Army 4 Star General have some concept of what went on and the best way to drive home the point to the cadets .
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ROTC has exactly zilch to do with the regimental system or the class system, or the honor system for that matter. It is separate and apart from both. ROTC has (or should have) exactly the same place in the hierarchy as an English class or biology lab. It is a class that all must take, and later some will take the lab and commission, and some will not and go to graduate school or get a job. ROTC is not VMI, and VMI is not ROTC. There is good reason that ROTC takes place on the other side of Route 11, which is exactly where it belongs.
Now, in the context of an academy, I am perfectly willing to accept your view. The cadets/midshipmen are 100% engaged in an activity that is part and parcel of their future military experience, and in fact are paid to do it. The place is being run by active-duty military officers as part of their active-duty service. But, I would not presume to tell you how academies ought to be operating, or what behaviors are or are not appropriate in the context of an institution whose sole mission is to prepare military officers (rather than one whose primary mission is to "produce educated and honorable men (and women) prepared for the varied work of civil life") or whether massive cheating/sexual harassment scandals are somehow indicative of complete leadership failures.
Easter2-you are dead on the money (again).
Apologies again for posting.
Keydet please do not apologize! The debate here is excellent and your views make compelling reading
Isn't it wonderful that prospective students in 2011 in America that want to include a period under military or quasi-military rule have so many different educational opportunities?
We've got USMA, USNA, USCGA, and AFA where one can go and go ahead and start one's career in the U.S. Military at 18 and get paid to do it.
We've got VMI/The Citadel where one can go and be a full-time member of a corps of cadets at a school that is all (or in the case of the Citadel, primarily all) cadets and share a unique experience where the regimental system is only one portion of the three competing co-curricular experiences that define cadet life, where ROTC is a choice for some to make.
We've got VTCC or Texas A & M where you can go and be a part of a more or less full-time corps of cadets at a much, much larger school with thousands of "civilian" undergrads with top-notch football programs.
It would be a little redundant and a little boring if they were all exactly the same, would it not? There would also be little purpose for this website.
And again, nothing has been condoned. The rats were punished, upperclassmen will be punished as appropriate. What more could you possibly want. No one is going to court-martialed or whatever it is USNA does and they shouldn't.
We've got USMA, USNA, USCGA, and AFA where one can go and go ahead and start one's career in the U.S. Military at 18 and get paid to do it.
We've got VMI/The Citadel where one can go and be a full-time member of a corps of cadets at a school that is all (or in the case of the Citadel, primarily all) cadets and share a unique experience where the regimental system is only one portion of the three competing co-curricular experiences that define cadet life, where ROTC is a choice for some to make.
We've got VTCC or Texas A & M where you can go and be a part of a more or less full-time corps of cadets at a much, much larger school with thousands of "civilian" undergrads with top-notch football programs.
It would be a little redundant and a little boring if they were all exactly the same, would it not? There would also be little purpose for this website.
And again, nothing has been condoned. The rats were punished, upperclassmen will be punished as appropriate. What more could you possibly want. No one is going to court-martialed or whatever it is USNA does and they shouldn't.
You know, Packer, I hear where you are coming from. But I think that probably isn't true or fair. We have been told by the Admin that they heard of the rat riot aforehand and stationed cadre at the 3d's stoop to head it off. On its face, that seems like an appropriate preventive measure that should have worked. Certainly, that measure failed and we don't really have the detailed facts as to why or how the fracas broke out. The Admin does say that certain "energetic" Rats tried to break through and a brawl ensued. I think it fair to say that the Admin did not see that coming, but then why should they have -- it has never happened before. My sense is that the leadership at VMI is embarassed by the whole event. The Rat Mass was punished collectively with grueling sweat parties and lots of PT, individual Rats who organized the riot have been strongly punished in a way that will serve as a disincentive to repetition of a riot. The VMI leadership says that any over the top upperclassmen will be dealt with and it will act to ensure that the rat riot tradition is, in their words, squeezed out of existence. My son's Rat class will thus have the dubious distinction of being the class that caused VMI to emphatically crack down on a "tradition" that got out of hand. My sense is that these are honorable men trying hard to do the right thing in an unexpected and unprecedented situation. They have my support.
I’m afraid my intentions have been misunderstood and I have myself to blame for that. VMI is a unique and valuable treasure for the Commonwealth and the country. You are correct; VMI should not conform to other paradigms. Personally, I would love to see VMI surpass Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and yes, even the service academies in all of the media rankings. This year I terminated my financial support to USNA because I am so disappointed with their product. I hope that gives you a better understanding of my position.
All of your arguments reflect a true passion and I admire and envy your school spirit and devotion. Unfortunately, there would be no need for this discussion in the first place if VMI were a private school. Taxpayers' dollars help make VMI the great school it is today. While VMI is one of the oldest schools in the nation, recently added “traditions” may not be viewed favorably by those same citizens and taxpayers. The question that begs to be asked, “Can this tradition stand congressional/state scrutiny?”
VMI’s continued success is as important to me as it is to you.
All of your arguments reflect a true passion and I admire and envy your school spirit and devotion. Unfortunately, there would be no need for this discussion in the first place if VMI were a private school. Taxpayers' dollars help make VMI the great school it is today. While VMI is one of the oldest schools in the nation, recently added “traditions” may not be viewed favorably by those same citizens and taxpayers. The question that begs to be asked, “Can this tradition stand congressional/state scrutiny?”
VMI’s continued success is as important to me as it is to you.
"The question that begs to be asked, “Can this tradition stand congressional/state scrutiny?” VMI’s continued success is as important to me as it is to you. "
The answer is yes, as long as it is isolated. I think the VMI leadership has reacted forcibly precisely in order to ensure it remains an isolated event. VMI has huge support and good will within the State and among Alumni. It is truly unique. I have never seen anything like the fevor that it enjoys among Alumni. There is no way that this VMI leadership will act in any way that could jeopardize that support.
The answer is yes, as long as it is isolated. I think the VMI leadership has reacted forcibly precisely in order to ensure it remains an isolated event. VMI has huge support and good will within the State and among Alumni. It is truly unique. I have never seen anything like the fevor that it enjoys among Alumni. There is no way that this VMI leadership will act in any way that could jeopardize that support.
You are right in that I don't think this is entirely true or entirely fair. That said these riots have been going on long enough to become a tradition even though they are not approved. They should have been snuffed out years ago if they are not approved. These kind of things usually get out of hand eventually. Now they have a black eye but fortunately black eyes heal rather quickly. The fact that this went on long enough to become a tradition does cause me to question the administrations judgement. Please note that I said question their judgement not poor judgement. I do not know enough about VMI or its traditions to make that charge.
This site is just one source of information in learning about VMI. As I have previously said VMI is one of my son's top two civilian choices, asuuming he gets an opportunity to make that choice. This incident is not going to cause me to try and discourage him from VMI.
All I can say is that the "tradition" appears to been more of a prank in years past. I believe the Administration when it said that it did not encourage or sanction it and sought to prevent it, as it did here. When it was a harmless prank, there is a human tendency to focus on other issues of more immediate impact. It certainly got out of hand this time and thus got moved to the front burner with a forceful response. For my son, what counts for me is the really first rate liberal arts education he will get there in an environment that is highly conducive to learning and in which consequences for stupid misbehavior (by anyone) are imposed swiftly and surely. You just won't find that environment very many places in higher education anymore. My son is an Institute Scholar at VMI and had lots options, as he was admitted to every school to which he applied, including some very hard to get into Tier 1 universities as well as the SMCs. FWIW, he remains convinced that he made the right choice and so am I.
I definitely think it is a good school. Glad to hear that half way through the first semester you and your son think it was the right choice.
What is your son majoring in? My son plans to major in mechanical engineering.
My kid is a history major. There is no doubt that the Rat year is tough, but it is supposed to be. He is Marine Option NROTC and wants a commissiion. In the meantime, he may have an opportunity to spend six weeks this coming summer at Oxford and to study abroad during the school year. BTW, the school has always had an excellent reputation in engineering. I'm a lawyer, but I have run into quite a network of engineering grads out there in the civilian world. Amazing who you run into with connections to VMI after you get into this world.