VMI vs USMA?

unknow

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Hello I am new here. I know this has been asked a lot, but I still have some doubts. I read in other forums that USMA is the place if you want to be a professional army officer. I also read that people prefer west point since it is a more reputable school, though I read and saw YouTube videos about VMI rat line and their spartan way of life.
I am a foreigner that has been accepted to VMI and I will be attending the summer transition program. I am very happy. I wanted to be in the military when I was a child, but my interests changed over time and I want to do engineering. I am from south America. I am not going to my country's military because my interests changed and the salary is very low which makes the military corrupted.

My questions out of curiosity are:
Is west point harder/better in military training than VMI?
Is west point academics better/harder than VMI? What about engineering?
Is there something that cadets at VMI miss from no going to west point?

Thank you for your replies and sorry if my English has some mistakes. I am still leveling up with my English writing, even though I have already taken TOEFL and SAT tests.
 
Did you apply to USMA for class of 2027? I believe it is quite a process for non-US citizens and you have to be sponsored by a national level government official.
 
Did you apply to USMA for class of 2027? I believe it is quite a process for non-US citizens and you have to be sponsored by a national level government official.
I did not apply to USMA. I do not want to serve in my country's military. People that become military officers here are mainly people that can not get into university. The military academy here is more physically demanding than academics. If I get my government endorsement, I will have to serve at least 10 years in my military with low wage. So this is a no no.
 
I did not apply to USMA. I do not want to serve in my country's military. People that become military officers here are mainly people that can not get into university. The military academy here is more physically demanding than academics. If I get my government endorsement, I will have to serve at least 10 years in my military with low wage. So this is a no no.
I think this makes VMI your only choice. Being a US citizen is a requirement to attend West Point unless you are a foreign cadet sponsored by your country. The payback of foreign cadets is subject to their government. We have a friend that had no military committment after attending West Point as a foreign cadet.

Another thing to think about is that you must be a US citizen to serve as an officer in the US military. Foreign citizens may enlist but not serve as officers.
 
If you have any specific questions about VMI or the ratline I'm a current rat and would be happy to answer them if I'm able to.
 
Goldenbadge - how are you even on here? lol!

my DS is your BR. Congrats on what's about to happen soon!
 
I think OP just wants informed opinions about the three questions he stated, even though he's made his choice. Sorry, I'm not the one to offer any insight but hopefully others will chime in with some answers.
 
If you have any specific questions about VMI or the ratline I'm a current rat and would be happy to answer them if I'm able to.
Hello friend.

How much emphasis is it given to the academic studies?
I want to study electrical engineering. Is it comparable the level to a civilian college?
 
Goldenbadge - how are you even on here? lol!

my DS is your BR. Congrats on what's about to happen soon!
I was reading this forum back when I thought I'd be going to a service academy and check back in occasionally when I get the chance. Not as much info on VMI as on some of the other SMCS or academies so if I can put anything out there for somebody who wants to apply, I know I would have appreciated it a year ago.

Thank you, we had our Dyke sweat party tonight and have the 20-mile march tomorrow, so we all know what's coming next.
 
Hello friend.

How much emphasis is it given to the academic studies?
I want to study electrical engineering. Is it comparable the level to a civilian college?
There's a pretty heavy emphasis on your academic studies here, there are rewards and consequences for your performance if you needed the extra incentive to do well. You're almost always guaranteed about 2 and a half hours straight each night to do your work and more time than that if you have the energy to stay up, but you also create your own class schedule, and I would definitely recommend taking advantage of that to get your work done early. Keep in mind you will have duties that take away time you would get at a civilian school such as the training and everything else that comes with being a rat, as well as mandatory sports games on weekends in the Fall and Winter and of course, anything involving your ROTC program.
I'm not an electrical engineering major but I have heard good things from friends who are and have talked to upperclassmen about the program. Here's the link to the major on the VMI website, it'll list all the courses you'll have to take and give an idea of what your 4 years would look like: https://www.vmi.edu/academics/departments/electrical-and-computer-engineering/
Like at a civilian college, you'll have companies or government agencies willing to bring cadets on part-time or as interns and they do plenty of recruiting on post.
 
VMI is the closest thing you can get to an academy without going to an academy. I did Mechanical Engineering, but I took an electrical engineering elective with COL Squire who is a West Point graduate and has a PHD from MIT. The electrical engineering program is very good from what I got to see.
 
VMI is the closest thing you can get to an academy without going to an academy. I did Mechanical Engineering, but I took an electrical engineering elective with COL Squire who is a West Point graduate and has a PHD from MIT. The electrical engineering program is very good from what I got to see.
Hello, I'm Jim Squire referenced by my former student above; found this post by pure accident. My view having graduated from USMA (what you are calling West Point) but having taught several decades at VMI:

* If you know you want to be an officer in the US Army, go to USMA. That is its primary purpose, and has phenomenal funding to do so. VMI does a truly excellent job of it also; many of my best friends as an officer were VMI alumni because our cadet experiences were largely similar. But VMI has a multi-purpose mission to educate citizen-soldiers, so it does not have the singular focus of USMA, which is the country's only federally-funded program whose sole purpose is to produce Army officers, has close to a 100% Army commissioning rate, and whose vast majority of faculty (perhaps upwards of 80%) are active duty Army officers themselves.

* The above statements are exactly why you should choose VMI if you are not positive about pursuing an Army career. USMA does not do a great job of educating people in my major (engineering), for instance. The vast majority of my professors were cadets themselves 7 years before; they spent about 5 years commanding infantry/armor/ADA/field artillery platoons/companies, took 18 months to earn their masters degree, then taught at USMA for a 3 year tour of utilization before returning to line units. I loved my P's (professors), especially some of my juice (electrical engineering) P's, but if I was LUCKY I had one who had taught the course 2 times before. 1/3 of my profs were in their first year of teaching. If I was lucky, they were teaching a course they had taken in their masters program, but some were teaching courses they had not taken since they were a cadet. I had to relearn a lot of my undergraduate coursework when I was studying for my doctoral qualifying exams. A lot. And that was OK - even while not subject matter experts, my P's taught me how to manage a large group of students needing instruction in an intense academic environment in which they didn't have all the answers - excellent training for my subsequent deployment to Desert Storm.

* You'll find the average student ability at USMA higher than the average student ability at VMI because everyone at USMA is on full scholarship, so the entrance competition is higher. You will find that the top students in both places are equally impressive - just that the standard deviation is higher at VMI. You understand that the converse is not true; going to USMA does not make you a higher quality student.

* For a snapshot look at typical professors: the USMA P is a hard-charging active duty Army officer, hoping to earn O6, and taking a break after earning a masters to teach for 3 years. They score well on the PFT, have lots of medals, likely combat or at least command experience, and is are just impressive all-around human beings. However, the average USMA P was never an engineer in the civilian non-combat engineer sense; they have not designed products for clients, they have not published dozens of peer reviewed journals, they have not earned patents, they have not defended a doctoral thesis, they do not have decades of experience teaching. On the other hand, the average VMI professor does not come from a military background (less than 1/3 do), so no medals, no combat experience, no military command. But they spent that time in higher academic training earning doctorates, they have a PE license, most have worked as commercial engineers, the average has well over a decade of teaching experience, any many dozens of peer-reviewed papers. It's a different focus for a different primary mission.

So in summary, I agree with my former student who said that VMI military training is similar to an academy (but not as good), and I'd say the academic training you get at VMI is, on average, better. My company and year group at USMA has 8% general officers. I have mentored 6% of my undergraduates to earn patents while still cadets. I suspect that the general officer rate among VMI grads is less, and I suspect that the percentage of patent-earning USMA cadets is less. Different missions.
 
The Citadel is the only other state military college and also considered an equivalent of USMA; its larger than VMI and has more academic programs but both are excellent schools that commission officers into all six military services. The big problem with USMA is the competition for getting in, 15K applications a year but only 1200 accepted.
 
The Citadel is the only other state military college and also considered an equivalent of USMA; it’s larger than VMI and has more academic programs but both are excellent schools that commission officers into all six military services. The big problem with USMA is the competition for getting in, 15K applications a year but only 1200 accepted.
Disagree.
With 2500 non-cadet students in citadel day, night, or online degree programs and another 2500 in the “military cadet corps program” at the school, it is far different from VMI and the academies and is by no means an “equivalent” of either.
Good school, just far different from both schools mentioned in the thread title, “VMI vs USMA.”
 
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Hello, I'm Jim Squire referenced by my former student above; found this post by pure accident. My view having graduated from USMA (what you are calling West Point) but having taught several decades at VMI:

* If you know you want to be an officer in the US Army, go to USMA. That is its primary purpose, and has phenomenal funding to do so. VMI does a truly excellent job of it also; many of my best friends as an officer were VMI alumni because our cadet experiences were largely similar. But VMI has a multi-purpose mission to educate citizen-soldiers, so it does not have the singular focus of USMA, which is the country's only federally-funded program whose sole purpose is to produce Army officers, has close to a 100% Army commissioning rate, and whose vast majority of faculty (perhaps upwards of 80%) are active duty Army officers themselves.

* The above statements are exactly why you should choose VMI if you are not positive about pursuing an Army career. USMA does not do a great job of educating people in my major (engineering), for instance. The vast majority of my professors were cadets themselves 7 years before; they spent about 5 years commanding infantry/armor/ADA/field artillery platoons/companies, took 18 months to earn their masters degree, then taught at USMA for a 3 year tour of utilization before returning to line units. I loved my P's (professors), especially some of my juice (electrical engineering) P's, but if I was LUCKY I had one who had taught the course 2 times before. 1/3 of my profs were in their first year of teaching. If I was lucky, they were teaching a course they had taken in their masters program, but some were teaching courses they had not taken since they were a cadet. I had to relearn a lot of my undergraduate coursework when I was studying for my doctoral qualifying exams. A lot. And that was OK - even while not subject matter experts, my P's taught me how to manage a large group of students needing instruction in an intense academic environment in which they didn't have all the answers - excellent training for my subsequent deployment to Desert Storm.

* You'll find the average student ability at USMA higher than the average student ability at VMI because everyone at USMA is on full scholarship, so the entrance competition is higher. You will find that the top students in both places are equally impressive - just that the standard deviation is higher at VMI. You understand that the converse is not true; going to USMA does not make you a higher quality student.

* For a snapshot look at typical professors: the USMA P is a hard-charging active duty Army officer, hoping to earn O6, and taking a break after earning a masters to teach for 3 years. They score well on the PFT, have lots of medals, likely combat or at least command experience, and is are just impressive all-around human beings. However, the average USMA P was never an engineer in the civilian non-combat engineer sense; they have not designed products for clients, they have not published dozens of peer reviewed journals, they have not earned patents, they have not defended a doctoral thesis, they do not have decades of experience teaching. On the other hand, the average VMI professor does not come from a military background (less than 1/3 do), so no medals, no combat experience, no military command. But they spent that time in higher academic training earning doctorates, they have a PE license, most have worked as commercial engineers, the average has well over a decade of teaching experience, any many dozens of peer-reviewed papers. It's a different focus for a different primary mission.

So in summary, I agree with my former student who said that VMI military training is similar to an academy (but not as good), and I'd say the academic training you get at VMI is, on average, better. My company and year group at USMA has 8% general officers. I have mentored 6% of my undergraduates to earn patents while still cadets. I suspect that the general officer rate among VMI grads is less, and I suspect that the percentage of patent-earning USMA cadets is less. Different missions.
AnalogGuy1,
As someone who taught at a service academy and is familiar with VMI, I must say I have not seen a better summary of the differences (and similarities) between VMI and the service academies explained. Your assessment, in my opinion, is spot on! Thank you.
 
Hello, I'm Jim Squire referenced by my former student above; found this post by pure accident. My view having graduated from USMA (what you are calling West Point) but having taught several decades at VMI:

* If you know you want to be an officer in the US Army, go to USMA. That is its primary purpose, and has phenomenal funding to do so. VMI does a truly excellent job of it also; many of my best friends as an officer were VMI alumni because our cadet experiences were largely similar. But VMI has a multi-purpose mission to educate citizen-soldiers, so it does not have the singular focus of USMA, which is the country's only federally-funded program whose sole purpose is to produce Army officers, has close to a 100% Army commissioning rate, and whose vast majority of faculty (perhaps upwards of 80%) are active duty Army officers themselves.

* The above statements are exactly why you should choose VMI if you are not positive about pursuing an Army career. USMA does not do a great job of educating people in my major (engineering), for instance. The vast majority of my professors were cadets themselves 7 years before; they spent about 5 years commanding infantry/armor/ADA/field artillery platoons/companies, took 18 months to earn their masters degree, then taught at USMA for a 3 year tour of utilization before returning to line units. I loved my P's (professors), especially some of my juice (electrical engineering) P's, but if I was LUCKY I had one who had taught the course 2 times before. 1/3 of my profs were in their first year of teaching. If I was lucky, they were teaching a course they had taken in their masters program, but some were teaching courses they had not taken since they were a cadet. I had to relearn a lot of my undergraduate coursework when I was studying for my doctoral qualifying exams. A lot. And that was OK - even while not subject matter experts, my P's taught me how to manage a large group of students needing instruction in an intense academic environment in which they didn't have all the answers - excellent training for my subsequent deployment to Desert Storm.

* You'll find the average student ability at USMA higher than the average student ability at VMI because everyone at USMA is on full scholarship, so the entrance competition is higher. You will find that the top students in both places are equally impressive - just that the standard deviation is higher at VMI. You understand that the converse is not true; going to USMA does not make you a higher quality student.

* For a snapshot look at typical professors: the USMA P is a hard-charging active duty Army officer, hoping to earn O6, and taking a break after earning a masters to teach for 3 years. They score well on the PFT, have lots of medals, likely combat or at least command experience, and is are just impressive all-around human beings. However, the average USMA P was never an engineer in the civilian non-combat engineer sense; they have not designed products for clients, they have not published dozens of peer reviewed journals, they have not earned patents, they have not defended a doctoral thesis, they do not have decades of experience teaching. On the other hand, the average VMI professor does not come from a military background (less than 1/3 do), so no medals, no combat experience, no military command. But they spent that time in higher academic training earning doctorates, they have a PE license, most have worked as commercial engineers, the average has well over a decade of teaching experience, any many dozens of peer-reviewed papers. It's a different focus for a different primary mission.

So in summary, I agree with my former student who said that VMI military training is similar to an academy (but not as good), and I'd say the academic training you get at VMI is, on average, better. My company and year group at USMA has 8% general officers. I have mentored 6% of my undergraduates to earn patents while still cadets. I suspect that the general officer rate among VMI grads is less, and I suspect that the percentage of patent-earning USMA cadets is less. Different missions.
Why USMA believes that classes are better taught by a military P’s with no real-life engineering and product development experience rather than a qualified civilians?
 
Why USMA believes that classes are better taught by a military P’s with no real-life engineering and product development experience rather than a qualified civilians?
You get a mix of military and civilian instructors at USMA. The military instructors are a mix between senior company grade/junior field grade instructors that have very relevant, fresh field and command experience they bring to the classroom, and senior military professors who are permanent faculty who have extensive research or experience relevant to their field more akin to the their civilian counterparts. The junior instructors teach generally more of the entry level course work in departments or gen ed requirements while senior professors teach tend to teach the more specific, deeper type courses specific to a department.

The mix is intentional. Cadets receive the quality education expected and are challenged by subject matter experts within their field, introduced to research opportunities, etc but the exposure to Army culture, different Army branches/opportunities, and the development as leaders by exposure to proven Army leaders in the junior instructors who will return to the field after their tour at USMA and then turn into the battalion/brigade operations officer, executive officers, and eventually battalion commanders for the future 2LTs they teach is just as important. They bring a fresh look of what the Army is doing now to the classroom that the senior professors who may be years removed from or civilian instructors have no experience with.

I still remember the various “story times” some of my instructors would break up class with where we would discuss different leadership challenges they experienced as a PL or CO or just talked about what life in the Army looked like. It helped inform my opinion on what branches I was interested in and connected me with mentors I still stay in touch today almost a decade later when I run into my own leadership challenges. When I was at school, all my junior instructors were generally year group 2003-2005. They all had multiple combat deployments at the height of the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars we were going to graduate and participate in and being able to talk to them about their experiences is all part of the leadership laboratory USMA is.

So while those instructors may not have had the “proven” engineering expertise you’re talking you might find, they add plenty to the experience, and I believe USMA strikes the right balance coupling them with the senior permanent faculty and civilian professors I interacted with. Additionally, those senior permanent faculty members tend to be pretty well decorated in their fields in terms of relevant research and engineering credentials that would make them competitive for the same type of teaching job as a civilian…many continue to teach at other universities when they retire.

I was plenty challenged academically, received ample opportunity for research in my field to deepen my engineering expertise, and it set me up to attend a great graduate engineering program I did fine in. Would I have had more pure academic focus at somewhere like MIT or an ivy? Sure, but that’s not the point of the Academy.
 
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