WARNING!!!!!

[Mongo]

Since the number of nominations always greater than the number of appointments , then before submit the list, why the MOCs contact each SA and find out who are 3Qed's in their state/district ?

The MOCs do have this information. However, when the MOCs hold their selections around this time of the year, most of the records have not been before the board. Therefore, scholastic qualification has not yet been initially determined.

 

[NYBEAR]

MOC Nominations

I agree that there is no reason whatsoever to have Congresspersons involved in the incoming class at any Federal Service Academy. Unless, of course, one is interested in cronyism, nepotism, political payback etc?

The US coast Guard has it correct. They select the best applicants from our Nation without any political influence. No wonder USCGA is resisting the push to have candidates obtain a "nomination". They understand that if a SA is "forced" to select certain applicants over others, the incoming class will be by definition much weaker than it should be if.

When only 300 or so are matriculating each year (USCGA,USMMA), does it make any sense to have 600 or more Congress members, most of whom who do not know anything about the 5 service academies, involved in the admissions process?

 

[jumprope_11]

Probably the most important reason for the nomination process to stay in place is to ensure that the entire country is represented. As a candidate I definately agree to points on both sides of the discussion. However, factors such as location do certainly have an effect on the strengths and views of candidates from different areas around our great nation.

 

[Mongo]

Probably the most important reason for the nomination process to stay in place is to ensure that the entire country is represented. As a candidate I definately agree to points on both sides of the discussion. However, factors such as location do certainly have an effect on the strengths and views of candidates from different areas around our great nation.

Of course. Economic and geographic diversity are very important to the officer corps of each service.

 

[scoutpilot]

I agree that there is no reason whatsoever to have Congresspersons involved in the incoming class at any Federal Service Academy. Unless, of course, one is interested in cronyism, nepotism, political payback etc?

The US coast Guard has it correct. They select the best applicants from our Nation without any political influence. No wonder USCGA is resisting the push to have candidates obtain a "nomination". They understand that if a SA is "forced" to select certain applicants over others, the incoming class will be by definition much weaker than it should be if.

When only 300 or so are matriculating each year (USCGA,USMMA), does it make any sense to have 600 or more Congress members, most of whom who do not know anything about the 5 service academies, involved in the admissions process?

There's an awful lot of rancor and supposition in that post.

Maybe you can point out which of the service academy classes have been "weaker than they should be"?

 

[NYBEAR]

Every service academy except USCGA is weaker because of this system?
In a perfect world, merit would determine rank order of appointment offers..If the top 300 hundred or 1300 candidates come from 30 or 35 states, so be it. .
A system that allows a MOC to "nominate" a candidate, who must be offered admission, and who is not a "top" candidate by all objective standards is inherently corrupt..
No rancor on this end. Just telling it like it is.
Many more qualified prospective candidates at the 4 service academies other than USCGA are denied admission each year because many who are less qualified "must" be offered offered admission by this archaic system that had merit a century ago.

 

[scoutpilot]

Every service academy except USCGA is weaker because of this system?
In a perfect world, merit would determine rank order of appointment offers..If the top 300 hundred or 1300 candidates come from 30 or 35 states, so be it. .
A system that allows a MOC to "nominate" a candidate, who must be offered admission, and who is not a "top" candidate by all objective standards is inherently corrupt..
No rancor on this end. Just telling it like it is.
Many more qualified prospective candidates at the 4 service academies other than USCGA are denied admission each year because many who are less qualified "must" be offered offered admission by this archaic system that had merit a century ago.

We'd be a great military with a 99% WASPy officer corps.

 

[Mongo]

We'd be a great military with a 99% WASPy officer corps.

With all trendy preppy officers from the affluent suburbs of our major metropolitan areas.

Actually, we would get basically the same candidates, not just the same geographic diversity. One has to remember that only 2000 or so are 3Qed. And 1500 or so are offered appointments. I have been told by the "powers to be" of several USNA Admissions administrations that if one drew the line at the 1500 most qualified, very few appointments are offered to those below that line. I would imagine that with the increased emphasis on underrepresented districts, there may be a few more, but not enough to really outweigh the advantages of the Congressional involvement.

 

[aglages]

Here we go again. Race/ethnicity and best possible candidates at the SAs.

 

[scoutpilot]

With all trendy preppy officers from the affluent suburbs of our major metropolitan areas.

But hey, they'd have the best grades and some great college-prep extracurriculars. The classes would be so much STRONGER. If there's one thing that white kids from suburbia with good grades know how to do, it's relate to an ethnically and economically diverse group of servicemembers. Just thinking about it has put me in the mood for some Nutella and an L.L. Bean button-down shirt.

 

[Mongo]

But hey, they'd have the best grades and some great college-prep extracurriculars. The classes would be so much STRONGER. If there's one thing that white kids from suburbia with good grades know how to do, it's relate to an ethnically and economically diverse group of servicemembers. Just thinking about it has put me in the mood for some Nutella and an L.L. Bean button-down shirt.

We would probably regain our national champion lacrosse program of a half century ago.

 

[scoutpilot]

We would probably regain our national champion lacrosse program of a half century ago.

I don't care...just as long as we could keep those kids from Mississippi and Wyoming and eastern Oregon from getting in. That's all I want, dammit. I want West Point to be Northeastern kids only. I want USMMA to be only kids from Long Island, since they'd be the only ones who heard about it. Navy needs to be the West Point of the DC area, so all those kids who got wait-listed at Harvard can put their parents' tuition to Episcopal High to good use and get into Navy.

Or maybe we could stick with the current system, which fairly represents each area.

 

[hopefulparent]

The candidate with the best grades, holding the most club offices, while captain of 3 varsity sports, who volunteers 15 hours a week in the community is certainly a great candidate. But that doesn't mean the academies should be filled with those types. They certainly deserve to be there. But so does the kid who struggles to make As and the occasional B, who works hard at his/her sport(s), is active in a couple of clubs, volunteers when he/she can, maybe works part-time for gas money. These are the ones who usually make better leaders, especially in the military, because they can better relate to the "average soldier". They are not elitists who have never gotten their hands dirty, or changed the oil in their mom's car, or helped build a ramp for a handicapped person. They understand what motivates people and how to lead during difficult times. This group should be the majority of candidates offered appointments. Just MHO.

 

[scoutpilot]

The candidate with the best grades, holding the most club offices, while captain of 3 varsity sports, who volunteers 15 hours a week in the community is certainly a great candidate. But that doesn't mean the academies should be filled with those types. They certainly deserve to be there. But so does the kid who struggles to make As and the occasional B, who works hard at his/her sport(s), is active in a couple of clubs, volunteers when he/she can, maybe works part-time for gas money. These are the ones who usually make better leaders, especially in the military, because they can better relate to the "average soldier". They are not elitists who have never gotten their hands dirty, or changed the oil in their mom's car, or helped build a ramp for a handicapped person. They understand what motivates people and how to lead during difficult times. This group should be the majority of candidates offered appointments. Just MHO.

My view on this is more...geographic. My wife hails from Minneapolis. Her high school is routinely in the top 100 nationally, year in and year out. She took more AP classes in high school than my small-town Ohio school even offered. Her school has tons of money, tons of opportunity, etc. That is generally the norm in America. The middle class and upper middle class move to the suburbs, where the property values and the student bodies make for schools that are very good and very competitive. These schools typically pump out an endless stream of college-bound students, but very few military-bound enlistees.

What the nomination process does is ensure diversity. I don't care much about racial dviersity. Even though I'm now part of a jewish family, that type of diversity doesn't interest me. What interests me, as a graduate and as an officer, is experiential diversity. Try as they might, it's pretty hard for kids in the suburbs to be that different from one another. Suburbs, by their nature, are mostly the same, especially after the building booms of the 90's and 00's. What is valuable to the officer corps is that we get that smart kid from Wyoming who went to a tiny high school and helped raise cattle. It's important that we get the kid from an urban neighborhood in St. Louis who understands the dynamic of inner city life. It's important that we get the small-town Ohio who poured concrete in the summer after football and has never seen a Cold Stone Creamery. It's important that we get kids from every nook and cranny of this country and that they bring diverse backgrounds and experiences to the officer corps.

A bunch of well-to-do WASPs from Connecticut may be the best students and the best academic/physical/extracurricular prospects on paper, but they will not produce the quality of officer corps that we are seeking. The nomination system ensures that good mix that has brought so much success.

Since USMA is fourth among all institutions for Rhodes Scholarships, I guess we aren't letting too many of the "best and brightest" fall through those political cracks.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

^^

Scout Pilot -- Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!
Well written!!

 

[Christcorp]

I can only speak for air force; and then, only the information given by our regional director for admissions at a meeting last month. Diversity was definitely brought up. The academy wants the ALO's to dig, and report diversity in their candidates. But this diversity definitely isn't just about race, gender, or even economic status. Yes, those are all forms of diversity, but our RD emphasized all areas. Some, many people don't even consider.

The candidate who works part time jobs to help out his/her single parent. The one who spends a percentage of their time raising their siblings. The individual who is the first generation in their family to try and attend college. The applicant raised and grew up on a farm. The 1st/2nd generation American. The applicant who was raised by their grandparents or other relatives. Adopted, foster child, etc... In other words; try and list all the attributes about a candidate that makes him/her different or unique among his/her peers/schoolmates/etc... The academy will determine the level of importance or significance this diversity contributes.

Most people get hung up with diversity as usually meaning; Blacks, Hispanics, Women, and Poor. But diversity goes way beyond that. The individual, who grew up in New Jersey, even though their family has been Americans for 3-4 generations, yet they grew up in a very close italian, greek, polish, etc... neighborhood; has diversity. It is extremely important that the standards and level of quality isn't reduced when accepting applicants and giving appointments. But of the 10,000+ applicants for the various academies, it is quite reasonable to be able to find not only quality applicants, but also diverse.

And the diversity of the MOC nominations is 2-fold. 1) It provides geographical/social diversity. and 2) The academies are funded by federal tax dollars, which comes from ALL citizens. It isn't fair that 5 states has all the cadets, because they happen to have the most money, best schools, and applicants with the highest ACT/SAT/EC/etc... Tax dollars from Idaho, new mexico, oregon, and west virginia also pays for these military academies.

Anyway; I am all for diversity, so long as it's "DIVERSE" diversity. Not limited only to Blacks, Hispanics, women, and poor. Fortunately, the academies (At least the air force), recognizes "Diversity" as meaning much more than just the color of your skin, your gender, and how much money your family has; or doesn't have.

 

[dpt135]

This one of the better threads I've read on diversity. All of this information helps me understand this crazy application process I'm experiencing right now.Thank you all for your input.

 

[NYBEAR]

I don't care...just as long as we could keep those kids from Mississippi and Wyoming and eastern Oregon from getting in. That's all I want, dammit. I want West Point to be Northeastern kids only. I want USMMA to be only kids from Long Island, since they'd be the only ones who heard about it. Navy needs to be the West Point of the DC area, so all those kids who got wait-listed at Harvard can put their parents' tuition to Episcopal High to good use and get into Navy.

Or maybe we could stick with the current system, which fairly represents each area.

Your "supposition and rancor" may stem from your preconception that the admission's officers at each of the service academies have no desire or interest or ability to select a class that "fairly represents" each area of the USA.

My supposition is that requiring a nomination from a member of congress, results in many more qualified applicants being rejected over many less qualified applicants. This added , unnecessary requirement of obtaining a nomination in addition to what really matters, being academically, medically, and physically qualified skews the admissions process.

Why would anyone believe that an admissions committee at any service academy would want to exclude candidates from Mississippi or Wyoming?

 

[Just_A_Mom]

NYBEAR - take a road trip. drive down to Mississippi or out to Wyoming.

 

[Christcorp]

.... This added , unnecessary requirement of obtaining a nomination in addition to what really matters, being academically, medically, and physically qualified skews the admissions process.....

NYBEAR: Like I mentioned in my previous post, requiring a MOC nomination, isn't an unnecessary requirement. It does 2 very important things. It ensures a nationally diverse class of cadets, and it accurately represents "The Tax Payers Who Are Paying For The Academies and the Education".

If you don't agree with that 2nd position, then you don't understand or agree also with our system of government. We are NOT a democracy or a democratic form of government. We are a "Representative Republic" form of government, where our representatives are democratically elected. In other words, we are NOT 1 individual country and government. We are 50 individual states, also known as autonomous countries, comprised to form a Union. States are considered independent countries and governments. That's why we have a secretary of "State". (Representing our interest to other countries). But more to the point; our 50 states, and to a lesser degree our territories, all need to be equally represented at the academies. Just like our system of government has senators to represent the physical states, and representatives to represent the population. And as long as that is our form of government and how the people are represented at the federal level, then it's only right that the academies also equally represent our 50 states. If that is not in place, then there is nothing stopping the academy; other than your faith in them; that they won't select their class based specifically on finite characteristics.

You might think that academics, medical, and physical fitness is "WHAT REALLY MATTERS" when selecting an academy class, and thus future leaders; but I have to disagree. The vast majority of the military is the enlisted corp. They are the ones who are being lead and most times perform the tasks directly related to mission accomplishment. And those squadrons, wings, platoons, etc... are made up of individuals from all over the country. With all types of backgrounds and experiences. It's important that those leading these individuals have experience with this diversity.

You might believe that a diverse group of cadets/mids coming into the academy is mainly benefiting that particular group of cadets/mids. That diverse group of cadets/mids is also benefiting the rest of the cadet class and the entire academy. It is exposing each cadet to diverse individuals with diverse backgrounds. That's why it's also great that some international students attend the academies also. We need our officer corp to be well rounded with the people they interact with. Just like the academy wants a "Well Rounded" applicant who has done academics, athletics, clubs, leadership, etc.... The academy wants to make that cadet MORE WELL ROUNDED. By the experiences they have at the academy. With a room mate from georgia; or a squad leader who is black; or an element leader who is a female; and the wing commander who came from a single parent family; etc... All of these diversities, along with many others that I posted previously, contribute to cadets having a well rounded experience.

Why do high schools have International Exchange Programs? So the individuals in the school don't have only the experience of the kids they grew up with their entire life. Yes, that exchange student from Brazil might get a lot out of coming to a school in the United States; but that school and class get just as much our of the Brazilian student being there. Diversity is a "2-Way-Street".

But again; besides these logical reasons for diversity; when it comes to nominations, (Specifically MOC nominations); we're also talking about representation of the people. Each state, each citizen, each tax payer, pays for our academies. They have every right to expect to be equally represented. And what better way, than half the class being made up of 1 cadet per state representative and 1 cadet per state senator. (That's only 553 cadets by the way. The other 700-800 come from a mixture of other nomination sources and leftovers from the states. Now, if you want to argue the need for presidential, VP, ROTC, etc... type nominations, I can see that argument. I'd still disagree with you, but I can understand it. But nominations from state representatives and senators is imperative. Not only for cultural/national diversity, but also for tax payer representation. Sorry for the novel. I tend to be long winded at times. Mike...