We are the 99%/Occupy Movement

This conversation lit up an old memory for me. When they were reporting that student loans exceeded credit card debt there was another finding. The number of FOR-PROFIT schools had boomed in the last 10-20 years (think UofPhoenix or Devry) and some news companies did some stings on them through secret videos. They found recruiters at these places promising high-paying jobs guaranteed upon graduating etc. etc. All colleges have used this ploy, right? What's changed now? Costs exploded, but we also have this for-profit boom too.

Just some more to add to the fire.
 
They are there because somebody is willing to pay for what they are selling. I would guess that some of them teach some marketable skills. However, if they are going to promise some high paying job upon graduation ones bs detector should go off. Sounds a lot the scams where you send a $1000 processing fee to Nigeria or somewhere and they will send you a $mil.

This may be what OWS is protesting about. That a fraud has been perpetrated on them but if that is the case their message is far from clear and coherent.
 
1. I am totally against the government providing student loans. It is not their place.

2. Most student loans aren't even needed. It's a choice. People have become so accustomed to the "Entitled" mentality, that they look for this money. Growing up, parents saved for their children's education, and/or the individual worked their way through college. Most students who work real hard through high school, will be offered educational opportunities in the form of scholarships. I don't say this because my son is at the academy. My daughter isn't military, she went to college. With her grades, she received some scholarships. She also worked her way through college. She also worked hard in college and graduated in 4 years instead of the modern day 5-6 years. She graduated with $0.00 in loans or debt. My wife and I basically gave her a couple hundred dollars a month for spending money. That's all. I am so proud of her.

Most states have educational opportunities for all sorts of students. The college loans are being mainly wasted on students going to over priced universities that don't get them any better educational opportunities or employment. If kids would look at going to their local "University of WhereverTheHell" instead of the "Status" universities like Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, etc... many of those schools would become more affordable. Having said that, even some of the "Great" schools aren't expensive if you worked hard in high school. My son was offered academic scholarships to 5 schools. (NOT COUNTING the ACADEMY). 3 of the 5 were FULL RIDE. The other 2 were 50% rides. Names like Tulane, Michigan State, USC. If parents don't raise their kids right and emphasize the importance of doing well in jr and high school, and the kid graduates with an average GPA, then maybe they shouldn't be going to college. At least not immediately. Maybe they should get that Sears or Walmart job and realize that they screwed around too much in high school. Then they can save money and go to college.

Oh; and for what it's worth, McDonalds, Target, even Mini-Mart have educational opportunities. If you work for them during summer and spring break and give them 3 years as a manager when you graduate; they will pay for your college. There are plenty of educational opportunities. Those who say there aren't, don't know or they are remembering 30 years ago when they were kids. Student loans are not necessary. Unless you want to waste money on an over priced university, getting a degree in some generic field that won't get you a job.

How's that for probably making some readers mad? LOL!!!
 
Not mad, just annoyed at the ill-conceived notion that just working hard will get scholarships and money to pay off college. The actual numbers would suggest otherwise.

I still don't get this notion that working a few years is enough to prevent loans. You're looking at minimum wage which means that it would take 2+ years of working to pay for every year of a typical college (~15-20K a year). Times have changed for us now with college. Unless family can help, it is highly unlikely that many students will be able to go to college without a loan, and a significant one at that. If I could take Harvard with a large loan or State-U with a small loan....I'm taking Harvard....I have a stronger chance of getting a good job after.

http://persephonemagazine.com/2011/10/dont-even-get-me-started-mythical-bootstraps-college-student/

But let’s talk about how realistic Sally’s scholarship scenario is. UW financial aid says they gave scholarships to 2700 students last year. I don’t know if that includes just undergrads (of which UW has over 27,000) or undergrads and grads alike (as an educator and a former law student I can let you in on a little secret: the good scholarship money is reserved for really super smart grad students). Let’s just cut this in Sally’s favor and say that that’s just for undergrads. That means UW gave some scholarship money to about 10% of their students. How much money? Well, they said they gave $15 million to that group. If we just do an average, that’s $5,555 per student, about half of a year’s worth of tuition expenses. But it’s doubtful that the distribution was even across the board. Most universities, including the one I now work at, give academic scholarship money in steps – such as president’s level, dean’s level, etc., and they also generally reserve some scholarship money for need-based and diversity scholarships. At some universities, including UW, there are athletic scholarships as well. I don’t know if Sally qualifies for a diversity or athletic scholarship or not. In terms of academic scholarships, a dean’s scholarship generally covers somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-20% of a student’s tuition. President’s— perhaps half or more. A slight few at UW might receive “full rides,” but based on Sally’s GPA as a senior of 3.8, which would qualify her for neither summa cum laude nor magna cum laude honors at the UW, I have doubts that she’d be at president’s scholarship or full-ride level. There are private scholarships available, but I’m not sure if people are fully grasping just how little grant and scholarship (especially in non-loan form) money is being given away today. And local community level scholarships are often helpful, but small, awards of $500-1500.
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With the internet now you can easily teach yourself a lot of things that you could learn in a college classroom, and buy books from there too....
 
SamAca10 said:
With the internet now you can easily teach yourself a lot of things that you could learn in a college classroom, and buy books from there too....
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Up to a point perhaps. I'd probably be incapable of learning a great deal of what I'm learning now or what I learned in the majority of my major at USAFA without teaching!
 
Packer said:
I think with the cost of education it is tough for kids today. Education has become over priced because we are willing to spend money we don't have to pay for it. I don't know how you roll this thing back without somebody getting hurt but the cost is out of line. I just can't put all of the blame on colleges and "Wall Street".
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I recall back in the early 90's after the late 80's boom, NJ Public colleges took a ton of heat for raising tuition rates while unemployment was so high.

They rolled it back in several ways.
1. Tuition freeze. Basically, just like the Fed GS jobs now have 0% annual increases.
2. Tapped into their endowment fund to make up the difference between the loss of revenue and bills.
3. State stepped in, and also offered a great program taken from the military playbook.
~~~ At that time nobody wanted to become a teacher, due to low salary, many were doing the accountant, engineer path.
~ They said if you promise to teach, anywhere in the state for 4 yrs, in your field we will give you a free ride for IS. If you majored in EE, you could use all of those Physics classes to get a degree in education for 8-12. Govt and Politics, use the History classes and get qualified in History. They did not say don't get the EE, they just said do both and you will have a guaranteed job upon graduation.

I actually had a friend do this. He majored in Architecture, became a drafting teacher in a HS, and 20 yrs later he is still there.

As far as the blame all on colleges and WS, you are right, parents also created this monster. They allowed their children to go deep in debt for bragging purposes, and keeping up with the Jones family.

However, I really do not hold WS responsible. Those over priced colleges with large endowments, which give merit money to some, came from WS. The colleges OTOH, who were getting 21% ROI, and increasing tuition by 10%, DID NOT SHARE THEIR WEALTH with their students. It was not WS's job to tell the colleges what to do with their gains. It was the COLLEGE's decision. WS did their job, they made money for them. They did not create the amount of debt college kids have, in reality, had the colleges shared their ROI with the students in tuition form, these kids would owe gratitude to WS.

That mutual fund the folks sold so the child would take less loans, came from WS. The money that paid for the small business the folks work for came from WS. WS actually infused money into the economy, it is not their fault that GE(HQ CT) isn't hiring. It is not their fault that companies are greedy. WS is investment. WS is not the HQ for Raytheon (MA), Dupont (DE), J &J (NJ), Wells Fargo (San Fran), Microsoft (WA). Their money is traded on WS, but their anger about no job is misguided. WS has no voice on if and when companies employ. If you have a mutual, didn't you invest in it because of the ROI? Did they now turn and say you must give X% of your dividend to someone or something? NO! They said we made you the money, you decide how to spend it. Would your child hold your mutual fund accountable if you didn't sell any shares for their college education? If they cannot hold them accountable personally in this situation, than how is it different with companies being replaced for the parents?

I do agree are some of these bonuses inane? Yes, but remember that even as a mutual fund investor, you get sent every yr a proxy for their annual shareholders meeting. You have the right to go to that investor and demand that they divest from these same companies that the protesters are screaming about. Look back in the late 80's we had many companies that were invested in Africa, but people started demanding as share holders that they leave due to human rights violations. They did. Heck, I remember in 1990 we were living in the UK as a military family. The commissary removed all PET products (company name...made the equivalent to cool whip, and things like that) because of this issue. I think the business went bust. RJ Reynolds also had an issue because of the Tobacco whistle blower issue, and all of the lawsuits, so people were fighting them as a share holder they answered to for investments.

That is the difference to me. These people don't realize that all they are is an annoyance, but mean absolutely nothing to them. Now if they were smart, they would all buy a share in one company and start showing up at their annual shareholders meeting. Get organized as you are sleeping in tents, and pick 10, 20, 50 companies.

Buy 1 share of J & J if healthcare is your fight...64 bucks...500 of you do it and all show up that share holders meeting and you will get their attention....plus the media.

Buy 1 share of BofA at $7 bucks if your fight is about the constriction of loans or banking fees.

Buy 1 share of Lockheed at $75 if your fight is about defense spending.

Kids I get protesting because they really don't know how the system works for WS. People who had even a 401K or an IRA before getting a pink slip should know better, and I just see them as fools.

The big wigs getting the big bonuses all got them approved through the share holders meeting. You as a stock holder have the right to say NO, if you did not send in your proxy, you let it happen.
 
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Kids I get protesting because they really don't know how the system works for WS.
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I think this is true for the vast majority of those protesting. I don't think most of them even understand what they are protesting.
 
"US military veterans heed Occupy rallying cry"

Much as some would like to boil this down to protests by a group of people they don't like, it's just not that simple. This is not just about "kids" strapped by student loans, or those who feel a sense of entitlement. Here's an interesting article which looks at it from another perspective, from the Associated Press today: (link to full article: http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/...ssey=tab|topnews|text|PoughkeepsieJournal.com)

"NEW YORK — Thousands of U.S. military veterans are heeding the rallying cry of Occupy Wall Street, saying corporate contractors in Iraq made big money while the troops defending them came home — and can't make a living now.

"For too long, our voices have been silenced, suppressed and ignored in favor of the voices of Wall Street and the banks and the corporations," said Joseph Carter, a 27-year-old Iraq war veteran who marched Wednesday to Zuccotti Park, the epicenter of the movement that has spread worldwide.


The former Army sergeant from Seattle spoke to fellow Occupy protesters and passersby on Broadway after joining about 100 veterans marching in uniform from the Vietnam Veterans Plaza through Manhattan's financial district nearby.


Their unemployment rate outstrips the national average and is expected to worsen. They worry about preservation of First Amendment rights. And they're angry.


A week before Veterans Day, generations of former U.S. military men and women threw their considerable weight behind the Occupy movement born in mid-September when about 100 protesters also marched in the Wall Street area."
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hornetguy said:
If I could take Harvard with a large loan or State-U with a small loan....I'm taking Harvard....I have a stronger chance of getting a good job after.
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And this seems to be the problem. How many other kids are out there saying the same thing right now? Gee wiz, if I spend WAY more I'll get a job in no time.

Well I'll tell ya what, you don't. I have leadership experience, a very nice security clearance, nearing the end of a master's degree, and I went to a good college. I also have real world experience, which at my last job fair, an EVP said companies value more right now than advanced degrees (that changes ones you're more senior, then advanced degrees are needed). It's not easy to get a job. I haven't had one since June 30, 2011. On top of all of that I have 5-point veterans preference....and every federal employer is worried about their budgets and hiring freezes (thanks to a damn Senate that hasn't passed a budget in YEARS).

So you have ten or hundreds of thousands of people paying a nice chunk of money for a college they think will buy them a job...and then it doesn't. Now what? They whine that their loans are so high.

Like you said, no one puts a gun to your head, you chose the higher university experience and all the $$ that went with it, but don't go crying to mommy when the jobs aren't there (something many already know), and all that debt you put your name one is there to stay.

Then who pays? LITS pays. LITS pay even though LITS got through under grad and grad school with no debt. LITS could have paid PLENTY of money for other schools, sure. LITS could have gone to a school that didn't require 5 years of pay back. But he didn't (and he got nice $$ scholarships at other schools, something that would have factored in).
 
LineInTheSand said:
Then who pays? LITS pays. LITS pay even though LITS got through under grad and grad school with no debt.
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Yes LITS you did get through with no debt, but what you are implying/inferring and what is reality are 2 different things.

LITS now as a tax payer pays for LITs 2nd Gen.

LITS got his under and grad degree on my dime. Your folks did not pay for it, You did not work PT jobs, you did not take loans. You had no debt because you deserved/earned an apptmt to the CGA.

Make that clear. You were an Academy grad. You as an officer used the system to pay for your Masters.

You had no debt because the military paid.

Just saying.
 
The common theme in most of these movements can be traced back to one thing - an overreaching and overbearing federal government that needs to be reigned in.

I certainly agree with the general sentiment of the "occupy" movement up to the point of "big business" being too close to big government, so-called "crony capitalism" (bailouts, guaranteed loans, the Federal Reserve, etc). That being said, the movement needs to concentrate on where the real problem is and always has been - at 1600 Pennsylvania and on Capitol Hill (and I don't mean just the current administration and Congress). More government is not the answer, just as abolishing capitalism is most certainly not.
 
Pima said:
Yes LITS you did get through with no debt, but what you are implying/inferring and what is reality are 2 different things.

LITS now as a tax payer pays for LITs 2nd Gen.

LITS got his under and grad degree on my dime. Your folks did not pay for it, You did not work PT jobs, you did not take loans. You had no debt because you deserved/earned an apptmt to the CGA.

Make that clear. You were an Academy grad. You as an officer used the system to pay for your Masters.

You had no debt because the military paid.

Just saying.
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Your dime, huh? Because you're a taxpayer? Well then, you had your DD and DS on my parents' dime, because you had military healthcare.

I'm sure LITS Sr.pays his taxes (I've met the man, and he strikes me as a taxpayer) so his education was no more on your dime than his. In fact, knowing what LITS Sr. does, I'm sure his "dime" was much larger.

LITS' point remains. There are many ways to get through college. He chose the harder route (a SA) which left him with no debt. He could've done ROTC (for a different service) or enlisted and used the GI bill. Others choose to pay. Then a vocal minority complains about their choice.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Then who pays? LITS pays. LITS pay even though LITS got through under grad and grad school with no debt.
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Yes LITS you did get through with no debt, but what you are implying/inferring and what is reality are 2 different things.

LITS now as a tax payer pays for LITs 2nd Gen.

LITS got his under and grad degree on my dime. Your folks did not pay for it, You did not work PT jobs, you did not take loans. You had no debt because you deserved/earned an apptmt to the CGA.

Make that clear. You were an Academy grad. You as an officer used the system to pay for your Masters.

You had no debt because the military paid. You went to a school which would not incur debt i.e. loans. SA's pay you to attend Harvard doesn't.

Just saying.
 
2009KPer said:
The common theme in most of these movements can be traced back to one thing - an overreaching and overbearing federal government that needs to be reigned in.

I certainly agree with the general sentiment of the "occupy" movement up to the point of "big business" being too close to big government, so-called "crony capitalism" (bailouts, guaranteed loans, the Federal Reserve, etc). That being said, the movement needs to concentrate on where the real problem is and always has been - at 1600 Pennsylvania and on Capitol Hill (and I don't mean just the current administration and Congress). More government is not the answer, just as abolishing capitalism is most certainly not.
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Agreed!
 
Yup, my take away from Tea Party and Occupy people is the crony capitalism problem. There is a good comic out there that I can't find again. Big building with two entrances: big government and big banks with each movement pulling to their argument without looking up and seeing that it's the whole system with big banks and big government too involved with one another.

It makes me nervous that our financial sector has become such a large component of our GDP and wealth....I'd rather have something with a bit more....real capital.

Important movie for anyone to watch: Inside Job.

2009KPer said:
The common theme in most of these movements can be traced back to one thing - an overreaching and overbearing federal government that needs to be reigned in.

I certainly agree with the general sentiment of the "occupy" movement up to the point of "big business" being too close to big government, so-called "crony capitalism" (bailouts, guaranteed loans, the Federal Reserve, etc). That being said, the movement needs to concentrate on where the real problem is and always has been - at 1600 Pennsylvania and on Capitol Hill (and I don't mean just the current administration and Congress). More government is not the answer, just as abolishing capitalism is most certainly not.
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Haha, this is good conversation. And because I paid federal taxes (like the other 53% of America) I also paid for part of my education. In addition to that, I owed 5 years after that education. It's a job yes, but we all know the pay is better on the outside (at some point).

So yes, I didn't directly pay for my education (besides the $3,000 fee).... but I could have. I could have paid a good chunk of change... but I didn't.

Tax payers (including myself, my parents, extended family and all but 47% of the United States) had a share in my education. And in the end, I worked for them. I "paid them back". What's fun is doing the DOD's military to private sector conversion for salary.... a little eye opening.

So the American people got my service, 24/7, for five years. They got me staying late when civilian employees in my office left hours ago. They got me on Christmas in GTMO or in the middle of the Atlantic on my birthday. They got me in freezing water and 30 ft. seas. Heck, they even got some of that while I was still in college.

But, the education was "free" to me.

That Occupy Wallstreet wants, to me, equates to LITS spending 4 years at a service academy, and when that last day comes and I walk across the stage and get my resume and commission (in that order) I stop as I walk up to Sec. of Homeland Security Chertolf, and I say "ya know, I don't think I want to serve anymore. Thanks for the education and the investment in my future, but I'm not going to pay you back. I just want a job, and I don't want to buy into that on my own."
 
hornetguy said:
It makes me nervous that our financial sector has become such a large component of our GDP and wealth....I'd rather have something with a bit more....real capital.
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What should make you nervous is how far over our credit card debit limit the U.S. federal government has gone. Look at Greece. Now try to imagine America turning around right now. It's not going to happen. This is going to get very very nasty. It's coming sooner than we'd like and all we can do is keep spending on that credit cards.


I would love to see Congressional term limits. Reduces the investment companys, interest groups and lobbyists put in a single "career" politician.
 
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