West Point Cheating Scandal

great thought. I really hate when an entire kids life is ruined by one wrong decision. This isn’t the same as some enlisted kid. Getting discharged as a 18 yo from the navy is not a life ending event. honestly being expelled from WP is basically game-over for kids that were soon-to-be world leaders. This cheating will follow these kids for the rest of their time at WP as well as long long after. And all it took was one wrong decision. I don’t condone cheating in any way, but I’m glad that these cadets have the ability to salvage their future, change some things, and hopefully get back on track.
Whether they are actually worthy of a salvaged future is unknowable under the circumstances described in the article or in other reporting where a large group is not treated to individual review before Honor Boards. Our sons and daughters are entitled to better than what we heard from Army leadership here.

@liamking, while you say you “don’t condone cheating in any way,” you go on to do exactly that by accepting and allowing behavior that was wrong. You suggest these young men and women deserve to be treated more gently than enlisted soldiers. I could not disagree more. Why would we want to entrust the lives of enlisted soldiers, let alone our security and defense, to these plainly untrustworthy soldiers. I see this quite opposite. That is, I would hold our future Officers to the highest standards - quite satisfied to see flawed “soon-to-be world leaders” out of our Army and stripped of the benefits they would have received by having attended WP. Certainly, many before them received harsh treatment for cheating. And, I see no reason to bend here.

Most of us who have Cadet kids know our kids are quite some distance from perfect. But, we also know that what sets them apart in a positive way is their desire to succeed as military Officers and their integrity - a willingness to suffer and do what is hard because it is right. My fear is that there are 70 or so Cadets missing that core character trait. Worse, Army leadership might not care. At least, that is the lesson of the reporting.

There are rumors as to why the Army has looked the other way. It is a serious concern that WP leadership does not recognize the damage that it’s statements and actions may cause, especially in the context of the rumors so widely discussed among the WP community. Fortunately, the shortcomings of leadership here are unlikely to rub off on most Cadets - I hope. Most will likely be disgusted with everything about this episode because it represents exactly the opposite of core beliefs.
 
...This isn’t the same as some enlisted kid. Getting discharged as a 18 yo from the navy is not a life ending event. honestly being expelled from WP is basically game-over for kids that were soon-to-be world leaders...
You should reread this section and perhaps edit it. It communicates a certain mindset, and it's not a leadership mindset.
 
A big black eye for the class of 23 and the academy as a whole.
Chief of staff statement is an embarrassment.
 
Trust. Its been alluded to in one form or another in previous posts. I think what makes this topic disheartening is the undermining of public trust. This chart is older but, regarding the military, I believe it would be nearly the same today. People generally start to become suspicious of motives and lose faith in a system when trust is circumspect. It happens in the clergy, relationships, family matters and every facet of our lives. I’d tell my kids when they were younger: If I can’t trust you; who can I trust? I suspect the converse is true if my adult children asked it of me today.
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How is it a black eye for the Class of 2023?
Generally speaking, very generally, classes, rightly or wrongly, get reputations. “That class had the most grads make four star general or admiral.” “That class had the most combat deaths in Vietnam.” “That class had the big Double E scandal at USNA.” “That class had the biggest percentage of wash-outs during Beast, Plebe Summer, whatever.” “That class... etc.”
 
great thought. I really hate when an entire kids life is ruined by one wrong decision. This isn’t the same as some enlisted kid. Getting discharged as a 18 yo from the navy is not a life ending event. honestly being expelled from WP is basically game-over for kids that were soon-to-be world leaders. This cheating will follow these kids for the rest of their time at WP as well as long long after. And all it took was one wrong decision. I don’t condone cheating in any way, but I’m glad that these cadets have the ability to salvage their future, change some things, and hopefully get back on track.
What I learned minute one, was to not put these kids on pedastles. Ya, they got into a SA...but big deal. They are fortunate to be there? Yes. Absolutely. But (parents especially) need to not put them on pedastles. They are people.
 
How is it a black eye for the Class of 2023?
Like I tell my kids..."if you lie to me, I cannot trust you. It takes a long time to rebuild trust." I tell them "no matter how scary it may be to tell the truth, you HAVE to do it." Cheating is lying. If you cannot get the grade you want without cheating, you are not strong enough to handle the hard parts of life.
Having no military experience, I cannot attest to how hard it is to lead people in that way, BUT I have lead people in other situations. The folks will be responsible for the lives of others, directly and indirectly. People who are afraid of the outcome are NOT good leaders. You can look at a situation with open eyes, know that it is dangerous, concerning, etc., YET you must go forward with courage and confidence. People who are afraid (and that is why they cheated) will undercut those who lead them and those who follow them.
AND, a group, a large group, of people cheated together. I believe that the USA Today article stated that they all had the same error on the exam. That is damning. I would not want to follow or learn leadership from a group of people who were willing to conspire to cheat.
On a final note, a group, a large group, covering up anything creates a pervasive aroma that is dangerous to morale throughout the organization. Some will "look away", but it will damage and jade many who believe in what they are doing. That is why it is scandal.

From the wholistic approach, can a person learn to face the challenge? I believe that they can - if they want to. The rehabilitation perspective has to figure out this dicey portion. And in the case of the military...I don't think that there is enough "time" to rehabilitate most folks. That is why there is no "toleration of..." and as disappointing as each case may be, it really does need to remain so.
 
What I learned minute one, was to not put these kids on pedastles. Ya, they got into a SA...but big deal. They are fortunate to be there? Yes. Absolutely. But (parents especially) need to not put them on pedastles. They are people.
I’m not sure they are being put on pedestals. They are certainly being held accountable to certain standards. All the SA put great value on things like honor and integrity. Both mean doing the right thing when no one is watching. This is why this scandal is so disappointing and the comments from WP administration so disheartening.
 
Like I tell my kids..."if you lie to me, I cannot trust you. It takes a long time to rebuild trust." I tell them "no matter how scary it may be to tell the truth, you HAVE to do it." Cheating is lying. If you cannot get the grade you want without cheating, you are not strong enough to handle the hard parts of life.
Having no military experience, I cannot attest to how hard it is to lead people in that way, BUT I have lead people in other situations. The folks will be responsible for the lives of others, directly and indirectly. People who are afraid of the outcome are NOT good leaders. You can look at a situation with open eyes, know that it is dangerous, concerning, etc., YET you must go forward with courage and confidence. People who are afraid (and that is why they cheated) will undercut those who lead them and those who follow them.
AND, a group, a large group, of people cheated together. I believe that the USA Today article stated that they all had the same error on the exam. That is damning. I would not want to follow or learn leadership from a group of people who were willing to conspire to cheat.
On a final note, a group, a large group, covering up anything creates a pervasive aroma that is dangerous to morale throughout the organization. Some will "look away", but it will damage and jade many who believe in what they are doing. That is why it is scandal.

From the wholistic approach, can a person learn to face the challenge? I believe that they can - if they want to. The rehabilitation perspective has to figure out this dicey portion. And in the case of the military...I don't think that there is enough "time" to rehabilitate most folks. That is why there is no "toleration of..." and as disappointing as each case may be, it really does need to remain so.
I get why these cheaters should be disciplined harshly. I get why it’s a scandal.

But to say the other 1200 who didn’t cheat in the class should be thought of differently is crazy.

“Generally speaking, very generally, classes, rightly or wrongly, get reputations.” @Capt MJ is right. I don’t want my son to get the wrong reputation for an honor offense he didn’t commit.
 
I’m not sure they are being put on pedestals. They are certainly being held accountable to certain standards. All the SA put great value on things like honor and integrity. Both mean doing the right thing when no one is watching. This is why this scandal is so disappointing and the comments from WP administration so disheartening.
I was speaking specifically to the ‘for kids that are soon to be world-leaders’, and ‘this isn’t some enlisted kid’ comment of @liamking ’s. That’s a pedestal to me. Some people do have this “elitist” view or opinion of a SA student. I’m reminded often by my own two, how NORMAL they are.
 
Have you ever been golfing with someone that cheats? I mean, not the kind of cheating where you pick up your ball, and put it back down on a nice tuff of grass. I mean the shaving strokes cheating. Now that's a person you can't trust.
 
Their class will be remembered as the class with the cheating scandal.
One of the reasons that Honor Boards and separation is so fundamental to what is missing in the current situation. What a disservice for the many members of the class of 2023 who will not have deserved to be remembered that way. If the offenders were separated, the Class of 2023 would not need to wonder whether their personal reputations are tarnished in the way that letting the "cheaters" off without serious consequences, namely separation, would ensure.
 
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the honor code is "We will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do." If the leadership at USMA is putting the cadets in some kind of rehabilitation program instead of taking extreme measures, wouldn't they be "tolerating" the cheaters and in that sense also breaking the honor code?
USMA and USAFA have always had a simple, straightforward, black and white approach to the Honor Code. USNA, for better or worse, has a more flexible Honor Concept. I've always thought that the straightforward, all of nothing, approach had its advantages, but the response of the USMA Chief of Staff shakes my belief in the benefit of the "Code" .

Seriously, we're having a discussion on cheating? Seems to be prevalent in every aspect of American culture now. Nothing to see here.
"Everyone else is doing it..." and societal norms is never the Answer. Right or wrong, we need to hold our Cadets and Midshipman (and all Officers of any Service) to a higher standard. This isn't about the impact on the individuals involved, but rather goes to the core of a Service Academies existence. The Service Academies are losing the "unCollege" or "N*tCollege" aura, and with that, losing what makes them important to our Military Service.
 
Have you ever been golfing with someone that cheats? I mean, not the kind of cheating where you pick up your ball, and put it back down on a nice tuff of grass. I mean the shaving strokes cheating. Now that's a person you can't trust.
LOL Cheating is cheating. There is an absolute moral standard ... situational ethics justifying one type of cheating doesn’t work.
 
I get why these cheaters should be disciplined harshly. I get why it’s a scandal.

But to say the other 1200 who didn’t cheat in the class should be thought of differently is crazy.

“Generally speaking, very generally, classes, rightly or wrongly, get reputations.” @Capt MJ is right. I don’t want my son to get the wrong reputation for an honor offense he didn’t commit.
It is not fair to those who did not cheat.
 
I was speaking specifically to the ‘for kids that are soon to be world-leaders’, and ‘this isn’t some enlisted kid’ comment of @liamking ’s. That’s a pedestal to me. Some people do have this “elitist” view or opinion of a SA student. I’m reminded often by my own two, how NORMAL they are.
You among all here are qualified to say that. And I agree.
 
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