West Point Football Prayer

New Kid said:
especially if it immediately kicked up 6 complaints from team members.
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I read that on the Army Time also, but I am very skeptical of that number. My guess is that the Army Times writer got the information from Michael Weinstein. I guess we will just have to trust Michale Weinstein. Why does it matter - standing. If Michael Weinstein wants to sue, he needs someone that is "injured" by the action.

Than again anything possible when an overpaid professional athletes sits down/takes a knee during the National Anthem . . .
 
Doesn't sound like he plans to sue:

"Unlike many other religious-freedom cases pursued by the group, Weinstein said he does not plan to file a third-party inspector general's complaint on the issue. “We’re satisfied that this will be taken care of,” Weinstein said, adding that his foundation seeks an admission of wrongdoing and an apology from Monken, as well as assurances that the coach will adjust his postgame ritual."
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Staffers proudly and publicly posted a video of an explicitly religious ritual taking place after the game at a public institution where students also happen to be employees. This pretty clearly indicates that no one thought there was anything the least bit strange or inappropriate about it. Why would you be skeptical that of the thousands of people to then see it and share it -- and the resulting attention, which was sought by the very people and system now being looked into -- some folks would come forward to acknowledge that, yes, it upset them or made them uncomfortable.

Calling attention to it, asking for it to be acknowledged as a misstep, and making adjustments so that it's no longer a part of the post-game ritual seems like a pretty reasonable response, one that is specifically non-litigious.

Invoking the shadow of 'political correctness' doesn't advance the conversation. No one's being raked over any coals. West Point is investigating, they'll likely come back quickly and say "this shouldn't take place," a generic apology will be made, and he'll stop leading his athletes in collective prayer (because really, why should he?).

Why is that a bad process or outcome? It seems like the coach made a mistake -- almost certainly one borne out of personal habit or meaning -- and the public response to that mistake is effectively highlighting that it's something he shouldn't do under the banner of public authority.
 
New Kid said:
Doesn't sound like he plans to sue:

"Unlike many other religious-freedom cases pursued by the group, Weinstein said he does not plan to file a third-party inspector general's complaint on the issue. “We’re satisfied that this will be taken care of,” Weinstein said, adding that his foundation seeks an admission of wrongdoing and an apology from Monken, as well as assurances that the coach will adjust his postgame ritual."
​
Staffers proudly and publicly posted a video of an explicitly religious ritual taking place after the game at a public institution where students also happen to be employees. This pretty clearly indicates that no one thought there was anything the least bit strange or inappropriate about it. Why would you be skeptical that of the thousands of people to then see it and share it -- and the resulting attention, which was sought by the very people and system now being looked into -- some folks would come forward to acknowledge that, yes, it upset them or made them uncomfortable.

Calling attention to it, asking for it to be acknowledged as a misstep, and making adjustments so that it's no longer a part of the post-game ritual seems like a pretty reasonable response, one that is specifically non-litigious.

Invoking the shadow of 'political correctness' doesn't advance the conversation. No one's being raked over any coals. West Point is investigating, they'll likely come back quickly and say "this shouldn't take place," a generic apology will be made, and he'll stop leading his athletes in collective prayer (because really, why should he?).

Why is that a bad process or outcome? It seems like the coach made a mistake -- almost certainly one borne out of personal habit or meaning -- and the public response to that mistake is effectively highlighting that it's something he shouldn't do under the banner of public authority.
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Weinstein is not planning to sue because he knows he has no grounds to do so and no chance of winning if he did. He conducts his business by continuously harrassing the organization to create the impression that any expression of religious belief is a violation of the Constution- (regardless of what the document actually says). He's a believer in the - "repeat it enough times and people assume that it is true or else give in becaue they don't want to deal with it" school. That's what's happening here and of course the Army being professionally sensitve to the 9th degree- will go thru some public hand wringing over this non- issue. Weinstein is the real offender of the rights of individuals here but he has managed to convince a small but loud minority that they are free never to even hear the the dreaded word "God", (unless it is used as a profanity) even if that means that they can suppress the free exercise rights of everyone else.
 
New Kid said:
Invoking the shadow of 'political correctness' doesn't advance the conversation. No one's being raked over any coals. West Point is investigating, they'll likely come back quickly and say "this shouldn't take place," a generic apology will be made, and he'll stop leading his athletes in collective prayer (because really, why should he?).
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Respectively disagree. There are two views, probably more, on what happened (1) don't see any wrong with it or (2) it's wrong based on religious freedom/separation of state and church/etc. As I stated before we are entitled to our own opinions and the court system decides which opinion is in compliance with the Constitution. At what point does it become unconstitutional? What if a player say, let us pray? What if the player was the starting quarterback? What if the player was a non-starter. What if it was a team manager? What if Coach Monken said based on my personal beliefs, I like to hold a prayer after the team is released and anyone who wishes to participate can stay? Nothing is black and white with the Supreme Court right now. So unless some sort of dramatic changes happen, the current supreme court will still allow some sort of religious expression/activities involving the government. But the shadow of political correctness will prevent West Point from defending Coach Monken. Some people believe that people's rights have been infringed by Coach Monken's actions. I am thinking some folks might be infringing on Coach Monken's freedom of speech
 
You’re right that I've understood this as a conversation about the response & reaction rather than a core argument about first amendment rights vs. establishment clause protections. That's because the issue of coaches praying with teams at public institutions is fairly settled. Sure, legal precedent can always be overturned, but the current legal standard is that individuals in paid, professional positions of authority at public institutions can not invoke their specific denominational religious beliefs in a collective setting in front of subordinates. You can read a quick overview of it here as it applies to football: http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/when-faith-and-football-dont-mix

The reasoning for this is straightforward: it can lead to a climate (educational; command; professional) in which certain religious attitudes are assumed to be normative. This can foster an environment – consciously or unconsciously; intentional or perceived; implicit or explicit – that creates hierarchies of inclusion or belief. There is plenty of evidence of this having happened in many places at many times over many years. That’s why there are laws to protect against it. This is not exclusively an issue that applies to the military or to football, obviously – a manager at the post office can’t lead a collective prayer to Jesus at the end of the work day; a division head at the IRS can’t lead a collective prayer to Allah at the Monday morning staff meeting; a second-grade teacher at a public school can’t lead his class in making a burnt offering of corn to Wicca before lunch on Wednesday. And so on.

It’s false to suggest that this in any way precludes the ability of the coach or any player from praying. In answer to some of your theoretical questions posted: Of course a QB, a second-stringer, or any player can pray privately or with a friend or with a group of friends. A team member can create a prayer circle and invite others to join. The coach can bow his head on the sidelines at the start of the game or at the end of the game and do what he likes. These things can and do happen.

But in that moment the coach was acting in a paid capacity as the top authority figure for this public group. He was not acting as a private individual speaking to a group of private individuals. He was acting in his professional capacity speaking to his subordinates as a collective. For a professional authority figure to default into assuming that everyone in the room wants to take part with him in his religious activity of choice crosses a legal (and social) bright-line. People should not have to actively opt out of an explicitly religious activity that is being led by their direct superior in a public institution. The law really is clear on this.

Personally, I think it was fairly benign in this instance and the coach seems like a fine guy and he publicly apologized this morning. But institutions choose to stand firm on principle in these kinds of low-stakes moments in order to create an environment in which more intense or acrimonious versions of the same issue don't arise down the line. Also: it’s only an issue because they videotaped and proudly promoted that this took place. There’s no PC conspiracy. They posted a video online, got thousands of hits, and of course some viewers were going to identity the line that was crossed and report back to West Point that it seemed problematic -- and that it further seems problematic that staffers didn't think twice about posting it publicly. They brought the attention on themselves.

Part of the resistance here seems to come from Weinstein’s role in the matter. I don’t have a horse in that race – I think he’s overly zealous and grand-standing at times and I also think he has on occasion raised real and serious concerns. The two things can co-exist. In this instance I think he’s raised a reasonable issue and has handled it in a reasonable manner. I think West Point had a totally appropriate response, as did the coach. People make mistakes and cross lines in moments of excitement, which this was. That the institution and the coach have responded so quickly and taken ownership of that moment seems like, quite honestly, good, transparent leadership. Not sure why anyone's taking issue with it.
 
Out of curiosity, would everyone here who feels this is ok be alright if the coach were a Muslim? If the call to prayer were broadcast over the loudspeaker and he asked his players to join him in prayer? If that bothers you, ask yourself why.
 
Jcc123 said:
Out of curiosity, would everyone here who feels this is ok be alright if the coach were a Muslim? If the call to prayer were broadcast over the loudspeaker and he asked his players to join him in prayer? If that bothers you, ask yourself why.
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This was my first thought. If he stopped practice three times a day and everyone had to kneel and face East I don't think it would go over as well...
 
Jcc123 said:
Out of curiosity, would everyone here who feels this is ok be alright if the coach were a Muslim? If the call to prayer were broadcast over the loudspeaker and he asked his players to join him in prayer? If that bothers you, ask yourself why.
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Might not be a good example. I am not an expert on Islam, but I believe the call to prayer in Islam is based on time, not occasions.
 
MemberLG said:
Might not be a good example. I am not an expert on Islam, but I believe the call to prayer in Islam is based on time, not occasions.
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It's a perfect example - the time of day is totally irrelevant. People are ok with the coach asking his players to pray because he either shares their religion, or the religion that is generally accepted to be the dominant one in the US - Christianity. They couldn't care less that not everyone on the team is Christian - the suggestion was that they "leave the room if they're uncomfortable". I guarantee you those same people would lose their minds if the coach was Muslim and asked the players to face Mecca after practice and pray with him on a rug. If it's not ok for that to happen, it shouldn't be ok for him to ask players to join him in a Christian prayer either. We do not live in a country where the majority gets to dictate to the minority. Everyone has rights - not just christians.
 
Jcc123 said:
It's a perfect example - the time of day is totally irrelevant. People are ok with the coach asking his players to pray because he either shares their religion, or the religion that is generally accepted to be the dominant one in the US - Christianity. They couldn't care less that not everyone on the team is Christian - the suggestion was that they "leave the room if they're uncomfortable". I guarantee you those same people would lose their minds if the coach was Muslim and asked the players to face Mecca after practice and pray with him on a rug. If it's not ok for that to happen, it shouldn't be ok for him to ask players to join him in a Christian prayer either. We do not live in a country where the majority gets to dictate to the minority. Everyone has rights - not just christians.
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Let me clarify, my question had to do with my lack of knowledge on how Islam is practiced. I know Christians pray on many occasions in as a group, before a meal, before and after a sports game, before a ceremony, and so on. So do Muslims act similarly, specifically would a Muslim sports team hold a group prayer after a victory?
 
Yes, Muslims act similarly. There are five obligatory calls to prayer each day, but there are also prayers for just about any occasion from major events to minor ones. Praying in a group is seen as a good thing.

A Muslim coach very likely might want to give a quick prayer of thanks to Allah after winning a game, and it would absolutely be wrong for him to direct his players at a public institution to do so with him.
 
bruno said:
Weinstein is not planning to sue because he knows he has no grounds to do so and no chance of winning if he did. He conducts his business by continuously harrassing the organization to create the impression that any expression of religious belief is a violation of the Constution- (regardless of what the document actually says). He's a believer in the - "repeat it enough times and people assume that it is true or else give in becaue they don't want to deal with it" school. That's what's happening here and of course the Army being professionally sensitve to the 9th degree- will go thru some public hand wringing over this non- issue. Weinstein is the real offender of the rights of individuals here but he has managed to convince a small but loud minority that they are free never to even hear the the dreaded word "God", (unless it is used as a profanity) even if that means that they can suppress the free exercise rights of everyone else.
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Michael Weinstein isn't some God-hating, Hillary-loving, anti-military "liberal". He spent more than a decade in the US Air Force, after suffering brutal anti-Semitic treatment at the US Air Force Academy in the 1970s, including death threats, beatings & hospitalization in one instance. Nonetheless he graduated with honors. He went on to serve not just in the Air Force, but as an attorney on President Reagan's White House legal counsel team. Later, he represented Ross Perot.

He didn't make a stink out of the mixing of Christianity & the military until his two sons also attended the Air Force Academy in the early-to-mid 2000s and they suffered from the same level of anti-Semitism he suffered through 30 years earlier. He sucked it in his time, but when he saw his sons being subjected to poor treatment & discrimination (in the name of the Lord), he made a stand and continues to do so right up until the present.

It seems that a lot of so-called Christians aren't happy simply practicing their faith - they have to force it down everyone else's throats as often as possible. Standing up to these religious bullies is deemed, by some, as taking away those bully's "rights". I imagine these people long for the good-old-days when we still burned witches and other heretics for imagined transgressions.

What does football have to do with Christ? What does public education have to do with Christ? What does government have to do with Christ?

What does any religion, be it Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, etc. have to do with governence?

Nothing.

I send my kids to public schools to get an education, not to be subjected to religious indoctrination. If they went to West Point or the US military I'd expect education & military training, not forced conversion to someone else's version of their religion.

There are fewer people on earth I have less respect for than those who try to force their religious views on others. If you want others to adapt to your faith than do so by leading a life that is exemplary in every facet. Others will notice and follow you. Imposing your religion, not so much.

An Anglican missionary once tried to educate Ghandi on the merits of Christianity (and the British Empire) over his native Hinduism. Ghandi responded that he'd read the Bible and stated "I like your Christ but not your Christians."

Mickey Weinstein and I agree.
 
Day-Tripper said:
What does football have to do with Christ? What does public education have to do with Christ? What does government have to do with Christ?

What does any religion, be it Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, etc. have to do with governence?

Nothing.
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Nothing. It might sound funny coming from me as I am not religious, I have not been to a church in a long time, but I sent my children to Catholic schools. Although I think four years of religion classes are not the best use of my tuition dollars, I accepted it as I made the decision to send my children to Catholic schools. Just like Ghandi, I like religion but I don't like how some people have practiced it and are practicing their religion.

I go back to what my high school U.S. government teacher taught me - when someone's right infringe on another person's right, that right is not absolute. So when does a player's right to be not exposed to a religious activity infringe on Coach Monken's right to share his religious view in public? Is there a magic number or just one out of many is enough. I find this discussion somewhat ironic as anti-2nd amendment folks want to limit my 2nd amendment under the guise of public safety.
 
MemberLG said:
Nothing. It might sound funny coming from me as I am not religious, I have not been to a church in a long time, but I sent my children to Catholic schools. Although I think four years of religion classes are not the best use of my tuition dollars, I accepted it as I made the decision to send my children to Catholic schools. Just like Ghandi, I like religion but I don't like how some people have practiced it and are practicing their religion.

I go back to what my high school U.S. government teacher taught me - when someone's right infringe on another person's right, that right is not absolute. So when does a player's right to be not exposed to a religious activity infringe on Coach Monken's right to share his religious view in public? Is there a magic number or just one out of many is enough. I find this discussion somewhat ironic as anti-2nd amendment folks want to limit my 2nd amendment under the guise of public safety.
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@MemberLG I think the objection in this thread, and generally speaking, is to having an individual who is a representative of the US Gov't and an authority figure imposing his personal religion on his players. He can do whatever he wishes as far as religion goes when he isn't representing the Army. When he is, it's unacceptable. That, at least, is my take on the issue.
 
I hadn't seen that, horrible tragedy.....unbelievable...took down the post. My thoughts and prayers are with his family, team and classmates...

I just listened to the Rice game yesterday on XM and the obvious joy and pride of the 2-0 start was evident in all of the post game interviews...
 
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New Kid said:
Yes, Muslims act similarly. There are five obligatory calls to prayer each day, but there are also prayers for just about any occasion from major events to minor ones. Praying in a group is seen as a good thing.

A Muslim coach very likely might want to give a quick prayer of thanks to Allah after winning a game, and it would absolutely be wrong for him to direct his players at a public institution to do so with him.
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Actually this is incorrect, there are 5, however, if they are not able to do all, they don't. In those cases they take the time to think about have they wronged someone, have they offended, if so, apologize to that person. Focus on being a good person, etc.
My coworker and good friend is Muslim and it's based on time of day, but in the US, it's usually difficult for working Muslims to pray exactly at those times. My friends lunch prayer time changes depending daylight savings. If he cannot get to Mosque in our city, he prays in empty office.
 
This is pathetic. This is America, and as Ronald Reagan once said, "If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
My perspective: Mickey Weinstein is a pathetic wind-bag. What a lousy example of a SA graduate... and what a shame.
 
CaliNavyMom said:
Actually this is incorrect, there are 5, however, if they are not able to do all, they don't. In those cases they take the time to think about have they wronged someone, have they offended, if so, apologize to that person. Focus on being a good person, etc.
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For sure. That answer was in response to MemberLG's direct question of whether Muslims pray in groups, before meals, before/after sports games or other points of celebration. I was saying that the recommended structure of five daily prayers isn't exclusive. You can pray in lots of other moments in lots of other ways as a Muslim, just like with any other religion most of us might be familiar with. What you describe of your friend's practice makes sense to me.

The greater point was that no authority figure should direct their students or players to pray with them no matter the religion.
 
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