What constitutes a “reach” school?

[Capt MJ]

I have to throw in a link for AROTC at my alma mater. I received a superb education at Wake Forest, courtesy of a merit scholarship that paid for tuition, room, board, fees, book allowance. I loved the small class sizes and just-right-for-me undergraduate body size. Though I was accepted at a good number of “name-brand” schools and had a National Merit and other scholarships, my parents couldn’t swing the pricey room and board, or the more expensive travel to those. Student loans were not something we were going to do.

I swear it’s because I was dating a guy in the AROTC unit there that I started to consider a military path, and on one fateful day, I stopped to chat with the Navy aviators, officer recruiters, in their whites at a career event. Next stop, Navy OCS.

Lovely campus, just a few hours from mountains or beach, and easy drives to the many colleges in the area.

Wake just established a school of engineering.

I now donate money to an alumni fund earmarked for veteran business school students, and participate in a Wake military alumni volunteer service group.

http://college.wfu.edu/ROTC/

http://financialaid.wfu.edu/merit/

 

[mil.intel]

Current AFROTC student at a top-10 university.

Ivy/Ivy+ is a reach for anyone, NO MATTER YOUR STATS. Take a look at the most recent stats of these schools:

• Stanford - Early: Unpublished / Regular: Unpublished / Overall: 4.3%
• Harvard - Early: 14.5% / Regular: 2.4%* / Overall: 4.6%
• Columbia – Early: 15.9% / Regular: 4.2%* / Overall: 5.5%
• Princeton – Early: 14.7% / Regular: 3.5%* / Overall: 5.5%
• Yale – Early: 14.7% / Regular: 4.2%* / Overall: 6.3%
• MIT – Early: 6.9% / Regular: 5.2%* / Overall: 6.7%
• UChicago – Early: Unpublished / Regular: Unpublished / Overall: Unpublished
• Brown – Early: 21.1% / Regular: 5.1%* / Overall: 7.2%
• Duke – Early: 21.4% / Regular: 6.5%* / Overall: 8.3%
• Northwestern – Early: 26.5% / Regular: 6.4%* / Overall: 8.4%
• UPenn – Early: 18.5% / Regular: 6.2%* / Overall: 8.4%
• Dartmouth – Early: 24.9% / Regular: 6.6%* / Overall: 8.7%
• Cornell – Early: 24.3% / Regular: 8.1%* / Overall: 10.3%

My class (of 2019) middle 50% ACT score was 33-35. I had a 35, which put me at BEST top 75% grade-wise within the accepted applicant pool. Crazy isn't it? Given the stories and woes I've heard from friends/online sources, excellent test scores and grades are now the new baseline standard - applicants will need the extra step (or more like a mile lol) to get past the admissions barrier.

 

[nykaby71]

I didn't see it mentioned here, but your selection of major also impacts the admission stats. For example, if your DS or DD wishes to major in Computer Engineering, acceptance rate at a school may be 3% for that particular major as opposed to an overall acceptance of 6%. Just to be mindful that major selection does have an impact on admission.

 

[ProudDad17]

I did check Naviance for our school. For some reason the Ivy plots are blocked “to protect student privacy”. That’s really weird because all other schools are not.

Spoke to DS tonight about this and he was a bit non-plused about the whole thing. This can be the problem with young people from inner cities and/or removed from the coasts - they don’t feel they “stack up”, even with great accomplishments. DS scored 33 on his first ACT sitting & 35 on his second. He’s a 2-sport athlete, Eagle Scout, works a job after school tutoring kids, etc. etc. He’ll be fine wherever he goes. He has to own his path. I just don’t want him to feel he has little chance for some things before the gun goes off.

So, your DS sounds a lot like my DS in his stats, ACT scores, Eagle Scout, athletics, engineering major. He was also team captain in two sports and had a 4.0 GPA. We are also white, middle class and a prestigious out of state school was not in our means without the NROTC scholarship. We are from a small town, small high school in CA. While it is a perfectly good HS, it is just an average school, no real strong academic record. I don't think my DS felt like the Ivies were a strong option for him and they didn't particularly interest him either. He was able to win an NROTC scholarship on an ISR early in the process and get admitted to all 5 schools where he applied. Michigan was his top choice and he was deferred during early admission, but admitted early on in the regular admission period. Purdue was also one of his choices. I hope your DS understands that, just because he is not in a big city or at a prestigious high school with a strong tradition of sending students to service academies or Ivy schools, does not mean doors are closed to him. His goals are within his reach, he just needs to reach out and grab them. Whether his goal is an academy or the ROTC path, it looks like he is building a strong resume by his past work and he should apply to anything he is interested in. My advice is to apply to programs early and be prepared to nail the interviews. Conduct practice interviews to get him comfortable. I was able to set up practice interviews with people at my job who have experience conducting interviews. They were able to give my DS tips and he felt like it was a valuable experience for him. The day after his officer interview, my DS was called by a recruiter at our regional office and told he was being considered for the ISR. At his HS awards night, the recruiter who showed up told my DS that he nailed the interview, so I beleive that probably pushed him over the top.

 

[unkown1961]

Current AFROTC student at a top-10 university.
Ivy/Ivy+ is a reach for anyone, NO MATTER YOUR STATS. Take a look at the most recent stats of these schools:

• Stanford - Early: Unpublished / Regular: Unpublished / Overall: 4.3%
• Harvard - Early: 14.5% / Regular: 2.4%* / Overall: 4.6%
• Columbia – Early: 15.9% / Regular: 4.2%* / Overall: 5.5%
• Princeton – Early: 14.7% / Regular: 3.5%* / Overall: 5.5%
• Yale – Early: 14.7% / Regular: 4.2%* / Overall: 6.3%
• MIT – Early: 6.9% / Regular: 5.2%* / Overall: 6.7%
• UChicago – Early: Unpublished / Regular: Unpublished / Overall: Unpublished
• Brown – Early: 21.1% / Regular: 5.1%* / Overall: 7.2%
• Duke – Early: 21.4% / Regular: 6.5%* / Overall: 8.3%
• Northwestern – Early: 26.5% / Regular: 6.4%* / Overall: 8.4%
• UPenn – Early: 18.5% / Regular: 6.2%* / Overall: 8.4%
• Dartmouth – Early: 24.9% / Regular: 6.6%* / Overall: 8.7%
• Cornell – Early: 24.3% / Regular: 8.1%* / Overall: 10.3%

Many of these schools offer aid with no loans, as mentioned in this article link:
All These Colleges Have Now Gone 'Loan-Free' to Help Keep Students Out of Debt
Plus, people would be surprised how generous some of these schools' aid packages can be, especially MIT, Yale, Princeton and Harvard. For instance, at Princeton applicants with family incomes up to $160,000 usually pay no tuition (https://admission.princeton.edu/cost-aid/financial-aid-numbers). Families shouldn't assume that an out of state private university will automatically be unaffordable.

 

[thibaud]

I did check Naviance for our school. For some reason the Ivy plots are blocked “to protect student privacy”. That’s really weird because all other schools are not.

The ivies are terrified that the real data will be used in a class-action lawsuit against them. Harvard is currently battling such a suit brought by parents of Asian-American kids. That case may end up in the Supreme Court.

In Harvard's case, Harvard's lawyers have been using every possible legal maneuver to avoid releasing actual admissions data because the data will make it very obvious, even to a non-professional, that their admissions process optimizes across key parameters defined in terms of:

- overall revenue (tuition sufficient to meet some pre-defined contribution to operating expense);
- recruited athletes (a few dozen football & basketball players each year + 3-4 recruits for each of the other varsity sports);
and
- racial floors and ceilings:
... Asians have a ceiling: must not exceed high 20's as a % of domestic students;
... URM's have a floor: must not be lower than high 20's as a % of domestic students

 

[bman]

I did check Naviance for our school. For some reason the Ivy plots are blocked “to protect student privacy”. That’s really weird because all other schools are not.

It is likely blocked because the number of students from your high school admitted to the Ivy's was too low to meet the minimum threshold for Naviance. In my DD's case, she is the only student from her high school ever admitted to her college, so if she showed up on Naviance it would no longer be anonymous information

 

[ders_dad]

It is likely blocked because the number of students from your high school admitted to the Ivy's was too low to meet the minimum threshold for Naviance. In my DD's case, she is the only student from her high school ever admitted to her college, so if she showed up on Naviance it would no longer be anonymous information

That's what I suspected. Northwestern was not blocked but it is geographically closer to us and had several applicants and acceptance. USNA did show up (4 applicants in the last 9 years, which is 4 more than I suspected) but none accepted. But it was interesting to see their ACTs on the plot - none over 30. ACTs are only a sliver of the picture, of course.

But also, there were some schools with only one applicant on the plot (non-Ivies), so I wonder if "privacy" is all there is to that story.

 

[Afdnp2013]

I hope this doesn’t come across as a stupid question but in the context of listing NROTC schools, what criteria could one use to determine what is are “reach” schools and “safe” schools? The profiles of the schools aren’t that much help. DS received his second ACT scores and is re-evaluating where to apply.

My daughter had 35ACT; 4.7 in an IB program; Varsity Letter and Team Captain x3 years; FBLA Officer...she put 1 Colorado State schools (Mines ) and then several private out of state...when she received her 4 year Scholarship Award letter it was for Columbia, Yale, and Univ of Chicago...the military is wanting to build these programs with strong candidates it seems. I’d encourage applicants to include an Ivy if competitive for Ivy admission!

 

[thibaud]

Per the point above about how elite admissions committees optimize for desired revenue, racial ceilings and floors, and recruited athletes: it seems that the patterns and conclusions from the admissions data are indeed as obvious and dispositive as I suspected:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/us/harvard-asian-admission.html

"A group that is suing Harvard University is demanding that it publicly release admissions data on hundreds of thousands of applicants, saying the records show a pattern of discrimination against Asian-Americans going back decades. The group was able to view the documents through its lawsuit, which was filed in 2014 and challenges Harvard’s admissions policies.

"The plaintiffs said in a letter to the court last week that the documents were so compelling that there was no need for a trial, and that they would ask the judge to rule summarily in their favor based on the documents alone.

"The plaintiffs also say that the public — which provides more than half a billion dollars a year in federal funding to Harvard — has a right to see the evidence that the judge will consider in her decision."

 

[USMAROTCFamily]

Per the point above about how elite admissions committees optimize for desired revenue, racial ceilings and floors, and recruited athletes: it seems that the patterns and conclusions from the admissions data are indeed as obvious and dispositive as I suspected:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/us/harvard-asian-admission.html

"A group that is suing Harvard University is demanding that it publicly release admissions data on hundreds of thousands of applicants, saying the records show a pattern of discrimination against Asian-Americans going back decades. The group was able to view the documents through its lawsuit, which was filed in 2014 and challenges Harvard’s admissions policies.

"The plaintiffs said in a letter to the court last week that the documents were so compelling that there was no need for a trial, and that they would ask the judge to rule summarily in their favor based on the documents alone.

"The plaintiffs also say that the public — which provides more than half a billion dollars a year in federal funding to Harvard — has a right to see the evidence that the judge will consider in her decision."

This could get very interesting......

 

[brob]

And don't forget the Ivies also want top athletes since they're Division I schools - they have taken several students from our high school who were probably not top notch academically but were star athletes.

 

[unkown1961]

And don't forget the Ivies also want top athletes since they're Division I schools - they have taken several students from our high school who were probably not top notch academically but were star athletes.

I'd clarify that as top academic athletes - they're pretty smart athletes. Also, keep in mind that Ivies don't give athletic scholarships, any aid is on the basis of financial need, though that is pretty generous at some of the Ivies.

 

[brob]

And don't forget the Ivies also want top athletes since they're Division I schools - they have taken several students from our high school who were probably not top notch academically but were star athletes.

I'd clarify that as top academic athletes - they're pretty smart athletes. Also, keep in mind that Ivies don't give athletic scholarships, any aid is on the basis of financial need, though that is pretty generous at some of the Ivies.

I would agree with you that the athletes I've known that were accepted at Ivies are qualified academically, but my point is other kids who may have had higher scores and more impressive resumes of activities, etc., may have been passed over for an athlete not as qualified as they were.

 

[unkown1961]

And don't forget the Ivies also want top athletes since they're Division I schools - they have taken several students from our high school who were probably not top notch academically but were star athletes.

I'd clarify that as top academic athletes - they're pretty smart athletes. Also, keep in mind that Ivies don't give athletic scholarships, any aid is on the basis of financial need, though that is pretty generous at some of the Ivies.

I would agree with you that the athletes I've known that were accepted at Ivies are qualified academically, but my point is other kids who may have had higher scores and more impressive resumes of activities, etc., may have been passed over for an athlete not as qualified as they were.

I agree, but that's true at all schools, including the academies. Well, maybe it's not the case at selective D3 schools like Williams, Swarthmore, MIT, etc.

 

[brob]

And don't forget the Ivies also want top athletes since they're Division I schools - they have taken several students from our high school who were probably not top notch academically but were star athletes.

I'd clarify that as top academic athletes - they're pretty smart athletes. Also, keep in mind that Ivies don't give athletic scholarships, any aid is on the basis of financial need, though that is pretty generous at some of the Ivies.

I would agree with you that the athletes I've known that were accepted at Ivies are qualified academically, but my point is other kids who may have had higher scores and more impressive resumes of activities, etc., may have been passed over for an athlete not as qualified as they were.

I agree, but that's true at all schools, including the academies. Well, maybe it's not the case at selective D3 schools like Williams, Swarthmore, MIT, etc.

You're right! And most admissions offices will state that they want well-rounded students so they can have a diverse student body - they don't want to admit only the students who excelled on the ACT.

 

[Oldsalt]

It's true at MIT, but more for looking at the whole person. Athletics consume large amounts of time. Taking challenging courses as well as practicing 20+ hours a week and being top of both says a lot about a person.
Elite musicians, kids that work 30+ hours a week, published researchers are viewed in the same light for similar reasons.
OS

 

[jebdad]

The line about "need-blind" is a polite fib.

I just sat in an admissions presentation on the campus of Duke last week. They emphasized that their admissions process is blind of any financial aid.

 

[thibaud]

I just sat in an admissions presentation on the campus of Duke last week. They emphasized that their admissions process is blind of any financial aid.

A merit-based, truly need-blind process could not possibly result in half of the admits paying full freight, year after year after year. There simply aren't enough super-achievers among the super-wealthy applicant pool for that to happen at Duke. Only about 10-12% or so of the nation's National Merit Semifinalists are drawn from the top 1-3% by income. That's enough to fill the full-freight spots at HYPSM but not also Duke, Brown, Northwestern etc. Those schools have no choice but to prefer top 1-3% (by income) applicants to top 1-3% (by merit) applicants.

Nb. There are all kinds of backside ways to bias the process in order to achieve the desired - and absolutely essential - outcome, of ca half the students paying full freight.

Early Decision is an easy and obvious trick: no one applies ED who isn't certain that he can pay - regardless of where the financial aid roulette wheel ends up. Call them "aid-blind" applicants.

In 2017, Duke admitted 51 percent (!) of applicants through this process that is heavily biased toward aid-blind, super-wealthy applicants.

Obviously, the super-wealthy applicants have much greater confidence in this outcome than any other applicants. (except poor students and others who are certain to receive sufficient outside funding to close the financial gap).

 

[unkown1961]

Early Decision is an easy and obvious trick: no one applies ED who isn't certain that he can pay - regardless of where the financial aid roulette wheel ends up. Call them "aid-blind" applicants.

I disagree with this. IF the school is a reach dream school, why not go for the early application odds. Even if the admission is binding, it can still be rejected by the applicant if the aid package isn't generous enough.