what is meant by "rigor" of high school re: USNA

[VelveteenR]

A number of the New England boarding schools also have impressive stats but they’re not big on sending kids to SAs.

 

[CrewDad]

I think kids today are generally more impressive and more prepared than the generations of the 80-90s. Schools like Brooklyn Tech, Bronx Science, Stuyvesant are very exceptional schools. Many enter the school doing Precalculus in Freshman Year and some finish 4 years of Calculus before graduation. They all compete nationally on Intel, Siemens, Samsung STEM Awards. I believe all are required to complete 2 years of college level work before graduation. Not all classes are AP but they have their own Engineering and Math Science curriculum carefully designed in cooperation with Columbia MIT Princeton throughout their history. They are schools for gifted in STEM. About 30,000 take the entrance exam and I believe acceptance rate is 5-7%. Similar to the Ivy numbers. But they are public so no tuition. And open to all New York City Students. So commuting to school can take 1-2 hours each way for some kids. That’s the draw back in going to these schools since they are day schools subsidized by the New York State and New York City. They issue their own specialized Dillion’s at graduation.

But being a grad at these schools with so many accomplished alumni in STEM, Entertainment, Finance, CEOs and business founders, Military, Government, National professional athletes attract excellent recognition throughout lifetime.

So these schools produce more than scientists. During WWII Grads at these schools were allowed to commission as officers in the military especially if they pursued being a Pilot. One of the grad from the class of 1943 was in B-29 Enola Gay that dropped the A-Bomb in Hiroshima. Founder of BARNES & Nobles Leonard Riggio, Lou Ferrigno the “Hulk,” Liev Schreiber attended this school. Interesting tidbits.

 

[usna1985]

Another excellent public STEM school is Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in VA. All classes are taught at an AP or "post-AP" (meaning AP course is a pre-req) level. Average SATs are 761M/720V. 99% attend 4-year colleges.

 

[CrewDad]

Another excellent public STEM school is Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in VA. All classes are taught at an AP or "post-AP" (meaning AP course is a pre-req) level. Average SATs are 761M/720V. 99% attend 4-year colleges.

Yes. This is another new comer to the STEM family. And TJS is top notch top rated nationally based in VA. I believe about half of their class get admitted to UVA.

 

[hopeful2023]

Also 'rigor' of a HS can be measured by average / median SAT score; comparison of avg GPA vs avg SAT; comparison of a 4.0 GPA vs SAT score, etc etc.

eg if a typical 'A' 4.0 student underachieves on SAT then the HS is not very rigorous. But if a 1400+ SAT student has less than 3.xx unweighted GPA it is a sign of rigorous curriculum.

Grade inflation is rampant and a 4.xx GPA by itself is virtually meaningless nowadays.

I respectfully disagree with the notion that the SAT score should serve as a proxy to high school rigor as noted above. The 1400+ SAT student may be smart but he/she may also be lazy and not work hard enough in school to have a higher GPA. And the student that absolutely works his/her hind off in school and achieves high grades may not test well. Of course, that individual would probably take the SAT multiple times but standardized test scores to GPA and class rigor is not an accurate measure. Grade inflation is rampant but that is why class rank serves as a more relevant proxy to GPA/class rigor than standardized tests.

 

[CrewDad]

Agreed. But you should understand that at these schools, all students are top students from their prior middle schools and high schools in their districts with high GPAs, especially in STEM and ELA. So they are tested to enter the school and to keep things neutral, they are judged by the standardized test scores for entrance to these schools. They also take 2 years of high school curriculum and 2 years of college curriculum with 65% in STEM related classes. This means students in Aerospace Majors at some of these STEM Schools take Aerospace plus other AP STEM. Some of these schools have wind tunnels simulating aerodynamics. The tunnel is the size of their class. Students in Chem Major take Advanced Chemical Engieneering like ones offered in college plus the standard AP STEM classes which serve as intro classes. They are students at a different level already. You cannot compare these students with students taking Honors and APs alone. All their classes are Honors by default. They generally test well because they are already well prepared as entering into their 9th grade. Grades are definitely not inflated at these schools. Students have to fight for every points. In a typical 1200 graduating class, about 150 end up in top 20 schools in the nation. And that's less than 15% of the class. So the remaining have to fight for spots in top 30 in the nation. And the bottom 15% fight for City college spots.

It is the same ratio as any high schools in the nation. Just in different magnitude. Only difference is that they are better prepared for college level work, but have to fight the same battle as anyone attending neighborhood public schools. So what is the real benefit of attending these super strong schools, you are better prepared to succeed in college. But they face even more competition with their classmates to get into the schools of their choice. This is why I chose not to send my DS to this type of super strong school. But have him excel in a high quality school environment that can still give him the balance he can enjoy and learn. Specialized School is not for everyone. But it is a great place for those who want to have specialization and have the maturity and the ambition to challenge themselves with opportunities to perform deep math and science research early in their youth.

 

[VelveteenR]

At the boarding schools, in addition to all of the rigor discussed above, class sizes are small, usually no more than ten students to a class with graduating classes of 250 or fewer. Each student gets plenty of one-on-one attention both in and out of then classroom along with expert college counseling. Also, four years living away from home prepares these elite students well for independent living. By the time they enter college, they have been living in rarefied academic communities away from parents for four years, have excellent study and time management skills, and hit the ground running when they enter university. Regardless of the types of colleges they choose, most of these students report that college is a breeze compared to the rigor of their boarding schools. The colleges know the boarding schools well, know how to evaluate the students, and welcome their exceptional preparedness for rigorous college programs.

@ders_dad: No matter which high school an applicant is from, the HS submits a school profile to the university (or academy) that enables the college to evaluate the applicant within the context of their high school. College applications are read by regional admins who, over time, know most if not all of the high schools in their region. Don’t lose sleep. Your child is being evaluated in the context of what was available to them not against what was not available to them.

 

[MidwestDad]

I respectfully disagree with the notion that the SAT score should serve as a proxy to high school rigor as noted above. The 1400+ SAT student may be smart but he/she may also be lazy and not work hard enough in school to have a higher GPA. And the student that absolutely works his/her hind off in school and achieves high grades may not test well. Of course, that individual would probably take the SAT multiple times but standardized test scores to GPA and class rigor is not an accurate measure. Grade inflation is rampant but that is why class rank serves as a more relevant proxy to GPA/class rigor than standardized tests.

For an individual student you are correct but for an entire school the standardized test profile will correlate pretty well vs GPA and give an idea of 'rigor.'

 

[usna1985]

One important point to make, there is rigor of the student's program and rigor of the school. The two may or may not converge.

For example, Candidate A takes the most challenging courses in her school and stand in the top 10 people in a class of 600. However, that school may offer few AP/honors classes and may be a terrible school academically, in the state and/or in the nation. Candidate A has a rigorous h.s. program but not a rigorous school.

Candidate B attends an excellent school that ranks high in the state/nation and offers many AP/honors classes. However, Candidate B isn't taking many AP/honors classes and/or stands in the middle/bottom of the class. Candidate B attends a rigorous school but his personal program isn't too rigorous.

Most candidates can't control the school they attend. If you're fortunate enough to attend a great public or private h.s., make sure you take advantage of the opportunity. As a general rule (there are almost certainly exceptions), USNA doesn't assume that, if you are Candidate B above (very average at a great school), you would have excelled at an average school. They want you to excel wherever you are. If you excel at a terrible school, you may be a great candidate for NAPS/Foundation where you can get an extra year of terrific education to make up for what you didn't get in h.s.

 

[0302grnt]

At the boarding schools, in addition to all of the rigor discussed above, class sizes are small, usually no more than ten students to a class with graduating classes of 250 or fewer. Each student gets plenty of one-on-one attention both in and out of then classroom along with expert college counseling. Also, four years living away from home prepares these elite students well for independent living.

Not all the students at these boarding schools are "elite." Been there. Done that.

 

[VelveteenR]

True. There are exceptions everywhere.

 

[ders_dad]

It seems to me that the real challenge for USNA admissions will be two candidates who both excel in the programs offered at their respective schools. Student A excels at his/her "pretty ok" public school that offers advanced classes (and student takes them) but may not have a large, competitive student body. Student B excels at his/her highly regarded private school that offers advanced classes (and student takes them) but has a much higher percentage of students in those classes and sends a much higher percentage of graduates to great colleges. Both have identical (high) standardized tests. If it were me having to make such a decision, I would look to the student who had to compete against a larger cadre of excellent students (Student B). Granted,there are many other aspects/considerations to the overall candidate selection process. This seems to be where "school rigor" would come into play. But I fully understand there are so many other factors regarding the whole candidate (and the needs of the USNA) that go into it.

 

[VelveteenR]

Two candidates who have both taken the most rigorous options available to them at their respective high schools and whose identical standardized test scores corroborate their highs GPAs are not further compared/dissected by the strength of the unrelated students bodies they competed in. As I said upthread, candidates are evaluated based on what was available to them, not on what was not. No applicant is penalized because they didn’t attend a fancy, private school (that may not be better than the local public). Colleges aren’t concerned about where other students from a high school go to college, only how the individual applicant did while attending that particular high school. Don’t stress over this @ders_dad.

 

[CrewDad]

It seems to me that the real challenge for USNA admissions will be two candidates who both excel in the programs offered at their respective schools. Student A excels at his/her "pretty ok" public school that offers advanced classes (and student takes them) but may not have a large, competitive student body. Student B excels at his/her highly regarded private school that offers advanced classes (and student takes them) but has a much higher percentage of students in those classes and sends a much higher percentage of graduates to great colleges. Both have identical (high) standardized tests. If it were me having to make such a decision, I would look to the student who had to compete against a larger cadre of excellent students (Student B). Granted,there are many other aspects/considerations to the overall candidate selection process. This seems to be where "school rigor" would come into play. But I fully understand there are so many other factors regarding the whole candidate (and the needs of the USNA) that go into it.

Ders Dad. Please don’t worry about this. If your kid is putting the best foot forward then he/she should feel very good about what he/she did. That’s the most important thing! To worry about my school their school is not so important. If she/he took most of the classes SAs like to see from the school, then I’ll say you did your best!

Besides SAT ACT class rank supersedes GPA and type of classes the student took. Most academic points are given to Test Scores and class rank. Don’t worry about this. Your kid’s got this! It is the other 40% of WCS/WCM that is more difficult to manage if you have not already done it over the last 3.5 years. Let’s all sit back and wait to hear back from Admissions. Parents and DS DD did all they could at this point. Best Wishes!

 

[bopper]

My DS school Average SAT is 1450 and ACT Average is 29. There are schools with average SAT 1500 and average ACT 32 with 1200 students in a graduating class. That was my high school in New York City.

Please, please, please let me know the name of the schools with the above statistics. These are certainly not public schools if they exist.

They could be public magnet schools. For example Stuvysent HS, the #1 public HS in NYC, has an average ACT of 33 with 824 in the graduating class.

 

[midge]

I know this thread is a week old and this is a little off topic but a question concerning class rank. It was mentioned multiple times in this thread that USNA puts most weight on test scores and class rank. Our DS is from small town USA, he is currently ranked 7 out 30, (GPA 3.8 and ACT 31). Not a great class rank at all. But it doesn't reflect fairly as most of the students ranked above him are not taking 'rigorous' classes schedules. Lots of students with shop, art, etc.. Nothing against these classes but you get what I am saying. DS started taking HS classes in MS and now supplements his schedule with online classes at the local community college. He is worried about this negatively affecting his chances. I told him he can not control it and to work on what he can control.

Am I correct in telling him not to worry? I know he does not attend a rigorous school by most standards but DS has made the best of what was available to him.

 

[MidwestDad]

Application is free !! GPA and ACT look reasonable for the 'small town USA' HS pool, cant stop him from worrying but just stay positive and encourage him to follow through. Remember that the nomination pool is from same congressional district; he is only competing against other APPLICANTS from your area. Not against the kids #1-#6 who won't even apply.

Cram hard for ACT retake, also register and prep for SAT which is available in all 50 states. Superscoring is your friend.

 

[usna1985]

Am I correct in telling him not to worry? I know he does not attend a rigorous school by most standards but DS has made the best of what was available to him.

USNA knows a lot about most high schools in the country. I've seen no evidence that students are "penalized" based on the poor quality of their schools. In fact, I've seen a form of the opposite happen, whereby students who attend very challenging schools and stand in the middle of their class often don't fare well in the USNA admissions process. And I've seen students who excelled at crappy high schools go on to do exceedingly well at USNA.

A couple of other points . . . if USNA Admissions has questions about a school, they can (and often do) pick up the phone and call the teacher/school official for more information. Also remember that grades/class rank aren't reviewed in a vacuum. I would hope that your DS's teachers noted that he was taking the most challenging classes that the school offers and excelling in them. USNA pays a LOT of attention to teacher recs so good words here can only help.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

Nothing against these classes but you get what I am saying. DS started taking HS classes in MS and now supplements his schedule with online classes at the local community college. He is worried about this negatively affecting his chances. I told him he can not control it and to work on what he can control.

^ 100% on target. USNA gets candidates from around the country, with various levels of preparation from the high powered college prep schools to the small midwestern rural school. One of my favorite Appointment presentations was attending the graduation ceremony at a very small (graduating class of <25) rural HS a few year ago. I am sure that school didn't even have AP classes, but the candidate took advantage of every opportunity he had at that school. One of the benefits of the Nomination process is that the local MOC knows and understands their local schools, so there is presumably some local input into the process.

 

[midge]

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and knowledge in this process. Much appreciated. I will share it with DS and he it encourages him.