What is the real story with Army ROTC?

[banjoppd]

Background - my son did 3.5 years JROTC in high school. Did a year (sort of) of community college, with no ROTC program. Transferred to a 4 year college (as a transferring Freshman) which has an ROTC program.

He walked on to the ROTC program 1st day. They handed him an application (and no, he does not have a DODMERB physical, or dental records, etc.). He's a bit over max BMI, so they are not issuing him uniforms until he gets down to acceptable levels. He has been PTing with the group, and hopefully, the weight will fall off quickly.

As with most 19 year old males, his father, who only did 20 years active duty in the Air Force, and has only been working for the Marines as a contractor for nearly another 20, is the most ignorant person on earth and can't possibly know anything about anything.

First question: What is his status as an ROTC cadet? As I see it, he's merely an applicant to the program at this point.

A week or two into his association with the ROTC program at his college, he was contacting by an Army National Guard recruiter about the SMP program, and seems to be blinded by the promise of tuition assistance, monthly stipend, and drill pay as an E-5. SMP program requires (as I read it):
- at least 30 college credits completed with 2.0 GPA or higher (he should be there by the end of Spring 2022 semester).
- approved major.
- 180 minimum on AFPT (60 min in each area).
- BMI/weight below maximums
- A status as a CONTRACTED, NON-SCHOLARSHIP CADET. Yes, that was boldface and all caps, as this is the first area where we disagree. Like I said before, as near as I can tell, he's merely an applicant, taking ROTC class and PTing at this point in time.
- completion of BCT and optionally, AIT in the U.S. Army

Second question: At what point does he become a contracted, non-scholarship cadet? Please, authoritative answers you can back up with documentation only.

This Army National Guard recruiter is asking my son to start filling out enlistment paperwork, with a goal of him attending BCT this summer (and possibly a very short AIT course such as being a truck driver). Son is reticent to share the paperwork the recruiter is sending him (probably to show me what a big bad adult he is).

Hopefully, someone here is active with the ROTC program, and can give me some authoritative answers before my little Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius, winds up an enlisted grunt toting an M-4 around BFE (not that there's anything wrong with that if a person knowingly and willingly wants to go that route).

Thanks,

As with most 19 year old males, his father, who only did 20 years active duty in the Air Force, and has only been working for the Marines as a contractor for nearly another 20, is the most ignorant person on earth and can't possibly know anything about anything.

Man to think I was the only Dad of a 18 year old, who thought I was the most ignorant person on earth.

MS1 and MS2 are just cadets, taking ROTC as a PE requirement or class. Unless they win a campus based 3.5 or 3 year scholarship they won't contract till their 3rd year/ MSIII year.

Unless tuition money is an issue, joining the guard to become an SMP isn't necessary or earns points on the OML. SMP obligations can be a hassle to a college student who may need the weekend drill time to study or get projects completed.

 

[OldAFRet]

As with most 19 year old males, his father, who only did 20 years active duty in the Air Force, and has only been working for the Marines as a contractor for nearly another 20, is the most ignorant person on earth and can't possibly know anything about anything.

Man to think I was the only Dad of a 18 year old, who thought I was the most ignorant person on earth.

MS1 and MS2 are just cadets, taking ROTC as a PE requirement or class. Unless they win a campus based 3.5 or 3 year scholarship they won't contract till their 3rd year/ MSIII year.

Unless tuition money is an issue, joining the guard to become an SMP isn't necessary or earns points on the OML. SMP obligations can be a hassle to a college student who may need the weekend drill time to study or get projects completed.

He wants to go military, with or without scholarship. I want him to be an officer rather than an enlisted guy.

Money isn't an issue - all 3 of mine got a 529 started the day they were born. They won't have a nickel of college debt.

He could apply for OCS after graduation, in any branch he wants. He WANTS to do ROTC because he truly enjoys the program.

My frustration is him not being more forthcoming about what's going on with this recruiter wanting him to go to BCT this summer.

 

[TBVADAD]

As with most 19 year old males, his father, who only did 20 years active duty in the Air Force, and has only been working for the Marines as a contractor for nearly another 20, is the most ignorant person on earth and can't possibly know anything about anything.

Man to think I was the only Dad of a 18 year old, who thought I was the most ignorant person on earth.

Its the cycle of life.

 

[OldAFRet]

Made some headway, and starting to feel that son is beginning to figure things out.

It also occurred to me that a bunch of my buddies are retired Army Colonels, 4 of whom have a little blue tab on their shoulder, and one with a little green hat to go with it. One WP, two ROTC, and 2 OCS. Talking to them gave me more insight, and telling son I talked to them got his attention.

Was surprised he did not know what a PMS is, or more specifically who his PMS is. He's also still confused by the routes through which his fellow cadets came to be. He's got a couple of National Guardsmen in his unit, he's got 2, 3, and 4 year scholarship cadets, contracted non-scholarship cadets, and a couple of programmers just like him.

The contracting thing still confused him, thinking it was automatic since (in his observation), every new Junior who wanted to stay in the program got contracted this fall. I told him it was probably a well run program, and cadets who aren't going to, or don't want to make it wash out or leave in the first two years.

The conversation concluded with him agreeing to leave the Army recruiter alone, and focus on meeting standards, so I call that a win. He found a workout buddy who's an MSIII, and they meet up with a couple of football players to work out daily. Hopefully the weight will fall off.

 

[banjoppd]

Made some headway, and starting to feel that son is beginning to figure things out.

It also occurred to me that a bunch of my buddies are retired Army Colonels, 4 of whom have a little blue tab on their shoulder, and one with a little green hat to go with it. One WP, two ROTC, and 2 OCS. Talking to them gave me more insight, and telling son I talked to them got his attention.

Was surprised he did not know what a PMS is, or more specifically who his PMS is. He's also still confused by the routes through which his fellow cadets came to be. He's got a couple of National Guardsmen in his unit, he's got 2, 3, and 4 year scholarship cadets, contracted non-scholarship cadets, and a couple of programmers just like him.

The contracting thing still confused him, thinking it was automatic since (in his observation), every new Junior who wanted to stay in the program got contracted this fall. I told him it was probably a well run program, and cadets who aren't going to, or don't want to make it wash out or leave in the first two years.

The conversation concluded with him agreeing to leave the Army recruiter alone, and focus on meeting standards, so I call that a win. He found a workout buddy who's an MSIII, and they meet up with a couple of football players to work out daily. Hopefully the weight will fall off.

If he intends to go active duty after graduation advise him to stay away from Minuteman/GRF scholarship. Not impossible but very hard to get released to go active duty.
Back in my day the Army was very different, they had NG-on active duty or USAR-on active duty, took several years to get converted over to RA.
I do not think the Army does that anymore. My nephew commissioned in 2016 and he was RA without being a DMG.

 

[OldAFRet]

We talked about future plans, which do lean toward an AD commissioning at this time. Assuming he contracts with 2 or 3 year scholarship, that means a 4 year commitment (if I'm reading everything correctly). If he contracts non-scholarship, a 3 year, and if he does not contract at all after the end of his Sophomore year, he owes nothing, because he'll be dismissed from the program.

If ROTC doesn't work out, upon graduation, he can certainly apply for OCS, and will have a 3 year commitment.

Again, I had to get money out of his mind. He feels like getting scholarships and aid to help me with his tuition will result in him getting his 529 balance upon graduation. Told him I was going to take whatever was left over, buy a Corvette, a toupee, and start chasing some of the 25 year old nursing students at his college. He didn't see the humor in that.

He wants to see the world, but I reminded him that joining the USAF after finishing High School in Pensacola, FL, my technical school and first duty station was Keesler AFB, MS (150 miles away). I was there pretty much my whole first enlistment (and had to re-up to get out of there). He had not thought of that. Living on the east coast, there are 9 dozen places he could wind up stationed that he's already seen, so his first and only tour in 3-4 years could be not so exciting.

Anyway, with his senior cadet and football team workout buddies, I am confident he'll make physical standards, so I feel better about that.

 

[OldAFRet]

Today is his first experience with a long standing military tradition - mandatory fun. His whole ROTC unit is going to their college's tailgate party and football game today.

 

[kinnem]

Today is his first experience with a long standing military tradition - mandatory fun. His whole ROTC unit is going to their college's tailgate party and football game today.

We were fortunate to live only a 3.5 hour drive away from DS's unit. We went to many of the home games and made a contribution to help defray the costs of the tailgate. We went to the stadium a few times but mostly we hung out at the tailgate. They had a portable satellite dish with a large screen TV setup, and the beverages and food were just a few steps away, plus you didn't have to pay for an expensive ticket to sit in a hot stadium with the sun in your eyes. We got to know a lot of the cadre and midshipmen that way too. Great times.

Does your son's unit clean the football stadium after home games like DS's did?

 

[Boymomof3]

Today is his first experience with a long standing military tradition - mandatory fun. His whole ROTC unit is going to their college's tailgate party and football game today.

I was surprised to hear our DS say “I have to be at the tailgate party @ 10am” - for the first home game . He had a good time - demonstrated his expertise at “bags” - which my DH immediately bragged to his neighborhood dad group about . @kinnem my DS does have to cleanup the stadium. He can’t stand the smell of day old beer now…

 

[OldAFRet]

We were fortunate to live only a 3.5 hour drive away from DS's unit. We went to many of the home games and made a contribution to help defray the costs of the tailgate. We went to the stadium a few times but mostly we hung out at the tailgate. They had a portable satellite dish with a large screen TV setup, and the beverages and food were just a few steps away, plus you didn't have to pay for an expensive ticket to sit in a hot stadium with the sun in your eyes. We got to know a lot of the cadre and midshipmen that way too. Great times.

Does your son's unit clean the football stadium after home games like DS's did?

I do believe he gets to clean up. I guess he's learning the long time tradition of the G.I. party also!

 

[MohawkArmyROTC]

@OldAFRet Most of your questions have already been answered. Just to add some additional info for you. If your son is doing PT with the unit, he should be an enrolled cadet. There is not a HT/WT requirement to be an enrolled cadet, just that they can't schedule you a DODMERB appt if you are out of HT/WT standards by a significant amount. He should be enrolled as that covers him under workers comp, should he be injured during an ROTC event. Otherwise, he is on his own as a Participating Student. He won't be able to contract until Sophomore year if he meets all standards.

He can do SMP as a non-scholarship cadet, which would allow him to assess onto active duty. If he had a Minuteman or GRFD Scholarship, he could only assess into the ARNG or USAR. He could enlist as a 09R (Potential SMP) and forego BCT and AIT, if he contracts with ROTC before his ship date. However, if he enlists and does not commission, he would still have to fulfill that enlistment contract. If he really wants to be an non-scholarship SMP cadet, I would hold off enlisting until Sophomore, right when he contracts with ROTC.

 

[OldAFRet]

@OldAFRet Most of your questions have already been answered. Just to add some additional info for you. If your son is doing PT with the unit, he should be an enrolled cadet. There is not a HT/WT requirement to be an enrolled cadet, just that they can't schedule you a DODMERB appt if you are out of HT/WT standards by a significant amount. He should be enrolled as that covers him under workers comp, should he be injured during an ROTC event. Otherwise, he is on his own as a Participating Student. He won't be able to contract until Sophomore year if he meets all standards.

He can do SMP as a non-scholarship cadet, which would allow him to assess onto active duty. If he had a Minuteman or GRFD Scholarship, he could only assess into the ARNG or USAR. He could enlist as a 09R (Potential SMP) and forego BCT and AIT, if he contracts with ROTC before his ship date. However, if he enlists and does not commission, he would still have to fulfill that enlistment contract. If he really wants to be an non-scholarship SMP cadet, I would hold off enlisting until Sophomore, right when he contracts with ROTC.

I wish he was hearing this from someone other-than-dad! PT, weight, and grades - nothing else matters ATT. Bottom line is he would not qualify to go to BCT with a high BMI, whether enrolled cadet or civilian off the street.

 

[MohawkArmyROTC]

I wish he was hearing this from someone other-than-dad! PT, weight, and grades - nothing else matters ATT. Bottom line is he would not qualify to go to BCT with a high BMI, whether enrolled cadet or civilian off the street.

Unfortunately, most young men have to learn things the hard way and they think their parents are the least intelligent people on earth. I also hope I wasn't that bad when I was younger, but I probably was.

 

[OldAFRet]

but I probably was.

Me too.

 

[OldAFRet]

@OldAFRet Most of your questions have already been answered. Just to add some additional info for you. If your son is doing PT with the unit, he should be an enrolled cadet. There is not a HT/WT requirement to be an enrolled cadet, just that they can't schedule you a DODMERB appt if you are out of HT/WT standards by a significant amount. He should be enrolled as that covers him under workers comp, should he be injured during an ROTC event. Otherwise, he is on his own as a Participating Student. He won't be able to contract until Sophomore year if he meets all standards.

He can do SMP as a non-scholarship cadet, which would allow him to assess onto active duty. If he had a Minuteman or GRFD Scholarship, he could only assess into the ARNG or USAR. He could enlist as a 09R (Potential SMP) and forego BCT and AIT, if he contracts with ROTC before his ship date. However, if he enlists and does not commission, he would still have to fulfill that enlistment contract. If he really wants to be an non-scholarship SMP cadet, I would hold off enlisting until Sophomore, right when he contracts with ROTC.

As I slowly get things sorted out, I get yet more questions. In this post you posted what I think is the "upon entry" PT scorecard. This is for applicants for scholarships? For consideration for SMP, I think we've determined (aside from being contracted) he needs a 180 minimum on the current AD AFPT scorecard?

Which scorecard applies to his current situation (high BMI, low PT, non-scholarship, first year walk on)?

If the 1 minute/1 mile scorecard, what should be his minimum goal? There appears to be a gray line at the 80% range. He needs to beat 80% to be considered for a contract (scholarship or non)? Or does the line of dots at the 92% level indicate where he really needs to be?

 

[TBVADAD]

Unfortunately, most young men have to learn things the hard way and they think their parents are the least intelligent people on earth. I also hope I wasn't that bad when I was younger, but I probably was.

I think we all were.

 

[MohawkArmyROTC]

As I slowly get things sorted out, I get yet more questions. In this post you posted what I think is the "upon entry" PT scorecard. This is for applicants for scholarships? For consideration for SMP, I think we've determined (aside from being contracted) he needs a 180 minimum on the current AD AFPT scorecard?

Which scorecard applies to his current situation (high BMI, low PT, non-scholarship, first year walk on)?

If the 1 minute/1 mile scorecard, what should be his minimum goal? There appears to be a gray line at the 80% range. He needs to beat 80% to be considered for a contract (scholarship or non)? Or does the line of dots at the 92% level indicate where he really needs to be?

That score card is only for HS Scholarship applicants. Not used again once you are in ROTC. Things are in limbo at the moment (and very confusing to outsiders) for Army physical fitness testing. The APFT is no longer a test for record and should not be given to cadets anymore, although some programs probably still do unofficially. Those currently on AD need one passing APFT score from FY2020 or later that is valid until MAR 2022. The ACFT is the current fitness test, but we are only allowed to administer it as a diagnostic at the moment, as it is pending final approval (there was pushback from Congress). In MAR 2022, we should get a decision on whether we can use it for record, or continue with the interim plan.

The interim plan, is that cadets will need to pass the Cadet Command Fitness Assessment (CCFA) in order to contract, and pass the OPAT to commission. Once the ACFT is approved, the CCFA and OPAT will no longer be given. Currently all he has to do is pass the CCFA, which basically just Pass/Fail. His program should be taking the ACFT as a diagnostic in order to identify cadet weaknesses, as it is expected to be approved. The CCFA consists of 1min PU, 1min Modified SU, 1mi run. Standards below:

 

[banjoppd]

As I slowly get things sorted out, I get yet more questions. In this post you posted what I think is the "upon entry" PT scorecard. This is for applicants for scholarships? For consideration for SMP, I think we've determined (aside from being contracted) he needs a 180 minimum on the current AD AFPT scorecard?

Which scorecard applies to his current situation (high BMI, low PT, non-scholarship, first year walk on)?

If the 1 minute/1 mile scorecard, what should be his minimum goal? There appears to be a gray line at the 80% range. He needs to beat 80% to be considered for a contract (scholarship or non)? Or does the line of dots at the 92% level indicate where he really needs to be?

Best advice I would give if it were my kid under the circumstances you noted for a MS1 non-scholarship cadet:

Get good grades
Get into shape to pass any PT test they throw at you (1-1-1-, 2-2-2, ACFT)
Work on BMI.
It will all work out middle of MS2 year.

 

[OldAFRet]

That score card is only for HS Scholarship applicants. Not used again once you are in ROTC. Things are in limbo at the moment (and very confusing to outsiders) for Army physical fitness testing. The APFT is no longer a test for record and should not be given to cadets anymore, although some programs probably still do unofficially. Those currently on AD need one passing APFT score from FY2020 or later that is valid until MAR 2022. The ACFT is the current fitness test, but we are only allowed to administer it as a diagnostic at the moment, as it is pending final approval (there was pushback from Congress). In MAR 2022, we should get a decision on whether we can use it for record, or continue with the interim plan.

The interim plan, is that cadets will need to pass the Cadet Command Fitness Assessment (CCFA) in order to contract, and pass the OPAT to commission. Once the ACFT is approved, the CCFA and OPAT will no longer be given. Currently all he has to do is pass the CCFA, which basically just Pass/Fail. His program should be taking the ACFT as a diagnostic in order to identify cadet weaknesses, as it is expected to be approved. The CCFA consists of 1min PU, 1min Modified SU, 1mi run. Standards below:

View attachment 10148

Curiouser and curiouser. While he exceeds the CCFA standards with no problem,it was not administered. His unit is training for the AFPT in November, so I guess they are one of those units you mentioned doing it unofficially (and expecting some very high scores).

 

[millitaryfan]

Background - my son did 3.5 years JROTC in high school. Did a year (sort of) of community college, with no ROTC program. Transferred to a 4 year college (as a transferring Freshman) which has an ROTC program.

He walked on to the ROTC program 1st day. They handed him an application (and no, he does not have a DODMERB physical, or dental records, etc.). He's a bit over max BMI, so they are not issuing him uniforms until he gets down to acceptable levels. He has been PTing with the group, and hopefully, the weight will fall off quickly.

As with most 19 year old males, his father, who only did 20 years active duty in the Air Force, and has only been working for the Marines as a contractor for nearly another 20, is the most ignorant person on earth and can't possibly know anything about anything.

First question: What is his status as an ROTC cadet? As I see it, he's merely an applicant to the program at this point.

A week or two into his association with the ROTC program at his college, he was contacting by an Army National Guard recruiter about the SMP program, and seems to be blinded by the promise of tuition assistance, monthly stipend, and drill pay as an E-5. SMP program requires (as I read it):
- at least 30 college credits completed with 2.0 GPA or higher (he should be there by the end of Spring 2022 semester).
- approved major.
- 180 minimum on AFPT (60 min in each area).
- BMI/weight below maximums
- A status as a CONTRACTED, NON-SCHOLARSHIP CADET. Yes, that was boldface and all caps, as this is the first area where we disagree. Like I said before, as near as I can tell, he's merely an applicant, taking ROTC class and PTing at this point in time.
- completion of BCT and optionally, AIT in the U.S. Army

Second question: At what point does he become a contracted, non-scholarship cadet? Please, authoritative answers you can back up with documentation only.

This Army National Guard recruiter is asking my son to start filling out enlistment paperwork, with a goal of him attending BCT this summer (and possibly a very short AIT course such as being a truck driver). Son is reticent to share the paperwork the recruiter is sending him (probably to show me what a big bad adult he is).

Hopefully, someone here is active with the ROTC program, and can give me some authoritative answers before my little Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius, winds up an enlisted grunt toting an M-4 around BFE (not that there's anything wrong with that if a person knowingly and willingly wants to go that route).

Thanks,

This made my day… from another “most ignorant” father (PhD in engineering, college prof., member on undergrad admissions and scholarship committee) who, in his DS’s eyes, doesn’t know anything about anything.