whats the jazz about this new supt

[raimius]

An upperclassman takes a penny and places it on the hallway wall right behind your head. You pin the penny against the wall with the back of your head. Then you take two steps forward as you shout Schofield’s quote. There is heck to pay if the penny drops to the floor.

This was a 92’er that forced me to do that. He was kind of gung ho back then. His roommate cross commissioned to the Navy and became a SEAL. Then he made a name for himself on Wall Street by buying up a lot of the gun manufacturers.

Yeah, I'd put money on getting blank stares, except for kids of graduates. That would have been considered hazing and severely punished in the late 2000s.

 

[Pattonsghost]

Maybe they will start selling razor blades at the academy again

 

[usafa1993]

An upperclassman takes a penny and places it on the hallway wall right behind your head. You pin the penny against the wall with the back of your head. Then you take two steps forward as you shout Schofield’s quote. There is heck to pay if the penny drops to the floor.

This was a 92’er that forced me to do that. He was kind of gung ho back then. His roommate cross commissioned to the Navy and became a SEAL. Then he made a name for himself on Wall Street by buying up a lot of the gun manufacturers.

I knew Louis.

 

[ZoomieFrom1994]

Never heard of that description.

The meaning of the phrase that I'm familiar with is rooted in the variety of knob "motivators" at The Citadel. I didn't get a nomination to the AFA in 1962, Instead, I went to The Citadel, class of '66. The fourth class system there was considerably more challenging than at the Zoo.

There was a chair rail along the walls in the cadet rooms. Varnished wood. One would squat down facing the rail and one's nose would be pressed against the rail. A penny was placed between the nose and rail. An uncomfortable position and it wasn't long before one would start sweating. The idea was for sweat to run down the nose and cover the penny. If enough sweat built up, it was possible for surface adhesion to hold the penny to the rail. When we thought that we had achieved this, we would move our head back and hope that the penny stayed on the rail. Sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't. If it did, one might be permitted to go back to his room. If not, and the penny dropped...well then, the fun and games continued.

I managed to get a AFA nomination the following year, and so 18 days after leaving The Citadel, I was back in the doolie game again, but at least the scenery was better. My attitude wasn't, however.

WOW!

I read the “Lords of Disciple” my 4 degree year right before Recognition (first Recognition that is). I have the movie on VHS videotape too.

The stuff you guys / those guys went through there during that Fourth Class year was unreal.

 

[ZoomieFrom1994]

I knew Louis.

Yeah, I was in 16 as a SMACK. Our SAR was on the t-zo level. IIRC, both freshman semesters my dorm room faced northward into the quad, so that I could see our SAR.

Louis, as a 2 degree, was the “element leader” one semester. One evening, I looked across to the SAR to see Louis training the few of my classmates that were in his element. They were in their blues and absolutely soaked. Of course, as soon as ACQ sounded, the training stopped and they were dismissed from the SAR. They probably spent a good chunk of their ACQ study time getting cleaned up.

 

[soccer67]

WOW!

I read the “Lords of Disciple” my 4 degree year right before Recognition (first Recognition that is). I have the movie on VHS videotape too.

The stuff you guys / those guys went through there during that Fourth Class year was unreal.

When I read the book's description of the first days as a knob, I felt like the guy was standing right behind me! Pretty realistic but I thought the language was a little raw for how we spoke in 1962.

I have the greatest respect for The Citadel and the life's lessons I learned there. Without a doubt, the most formative year of my entire life.

 

[urbansailor]

posting a usna comparison for anyone thats curious, not saying one is better than the other but think its an interesting comparison

-stolen from usafa message earlier-
0600 - Mitch's breakfast
0615 - Mandatory line-up for morning formation
0630 - Morning formation, raising flag...etc.
0700 - Mandatory military training in squadron (briefings, PowerPoint videos, hands-on, etc)
0800-1153 - morning Academic classes
1200 - Noon meal formation (5 days a week vs. 3 days for the last several years)/lunch
1300 - 1500 - afternoon Academic classes
(My understanding is ICs have schedules that allow practice from about 1400-1800 everyday, and they are exempt from squadron pt, etc. that conflicts)
1530-1700 - most days there is squadron pt, training, intramural practice/games, sitting CQ, if not EI can be scheduled or start earlier on hw
1700-1950 - Mitch's open for dinner, on your own time
1800-2000 - club meetings 2 days a week, other days dedicated to hw or sitting CQ
2130-2230- shower, personal time, tries to be in bed by 2230 each night

-usna-
0535 - plebe morning workouts (mando for plebes, optional for upper-class, can be anything from swimming to 1mile bear crawl. some battalions have made them mando for upper-class as well.)
0700 - mando morning formation and breakfast , some sports have excusals if they have morning wkts
0755-1145 - morning classes
1200 - noon meal formation 4 days a week, its usually pretty fast because the brigade is split into 3 separate formations that all enter king hall from a different direction.
1245 - 1320 - noon meal trainings, mando for plebes usually led by upperclass covering anything from military stuff, leadership, or important programs.
1330-1520 - afternoon classes
1530-1830 - sports period, varsity practices, club sports, or intramurals like running and dodgeball. (pickleball is very popular and competitive here)
1730-1930 - King hall dinner go when you want
1900-2000 - often club meetings or free time.
2000-2200 - "study period", basically free time, midshipmen led tutoring, writing center, library, classrooms all open.
2300 - i usually go to bed around here but some people will stay up to midnight or later depending on their study skills, procrastination, or major.

in terms of liberty, everyone can go off base during the weekend, + friday night for 3/c, and certain weekdays for 2/c and 1/c. every class also had a certain amount of "weekends" which allow you to take the saturday overnight. As a plebe you have like 2 or 3 weekends but you can earn more through football wins or other incentives. But as a firstie youll have tues, wednes, thurs, liberty and fri-sun weekends for the entire semester.

 

[jack42405]

But as a firstie youll have tues, wednes, thurs, liberty and fri-sun weekends for the entire semester.

It's crazy that a firstie at Navy can take an equal number of passes in a week as a firstie at USAFA gets for the month.

Feels like we've completely flipped compared to a few years ago where quality of life was worse for 4degs than at other academies but upperclassmen had it much better. Now its 4degs have it much easier and upperclassmen have it worse than at other academies.

 

[FlyFalcon]

This is wonderful ok next question how often are trainings on Saturday For us it's more than half our weekends have some kind of training. Including the 6 hour football games or SAMIs+ training after. Along with Saturdays of just training. Because the current schuedle you provided seems to have a lot of focus on freshman but allows time for other training. It super interesting because leadership uses navy and army as why we shouldn't be doing the training we had for freshman. (Not completely disagreeing out how but now we swung the whole other way).

Hearing from other cadets, is helpful because we're not in 1990,1980 or 1970 anymore, completely different leadership styles and some different beliefs within the current global climate. That's reflexive of how the academy is being run in schuedle and actions now.

 

[urbansailor]

This is wonderful ok next question how often are trainings on Saturday For us it's more than half our weekends have some kind of training. Including the 6 hour football games or SAMIs+ training after. Along with Saturdays of just training. Because the current schuedle you provided seems to have a lot of focus on freshman but allows time for other training. It super interesting because leadership uses navy and army as why we shouldn't be doing the training we had for freshman. (Not completely disagreeing out how but now we swung the whole other way).

Hearing from other cadets, is helpful because we're not in 1990,1980 or 1970 anymore, completely different leadership styles and some different beliefs within the current global climate. That's reflexive of how the academy is being run in schuedle and actions now.

Plebes have a Saturday morning training every weekend. These are almost all physical evolutions, like 3mile run to the endurance course and obstacle course, battalion competitions w/ logs, bearcrawls, etc, or brigade wide stuff like Domestic Violence Ruck. After the smt's there's usually football but after that your free if you took the weekend. For 1/c and 2/c if theres no football game they can leave after class friday and comeback for eol sunday.

There's definitely a focus on upperclass leading trainings, rather than being trained. officers and senior enlisted are usually only brought in to a training to mentor plebes or watch hazardous activities. how much more military trainings does usafa have for upperclass?

 

[FlyFalcon]

There's definitely a focus on upperclass leading trainings, rather than being trained. officers and senior enlisted are usually only brought in to a training to mentor plebes or watch hazardous activities. how much more military trainings does usafa have for upperclass?

Oh all the training is for all the classes now, we don't separate by class for anything. We mostly give out paper work if it's a freshman issue, anything higher (upper three) is a restriction or tours.

However it's not cadet run at least not the last two months. Sure cadets may brief it (PowerPoints) however the last sliver Saturdays have all been planned, run and graded by pp. I don't mean cadets don't plan anything any more....we did we're just told it's not "commanders intent" to do TCCC or land nav so PP will be handling it. Same for drill and ceremonies, grading and anything but briefs (most presentations at least).

How do I know? because it just happened once again again less than 24 notice. No other explanation then "not commanders intent" btw we will be graded in the Culex which is TCCC, land nav and radio signal in about three weeks....which is run by the commander.

 

[soccer67]

Oh all the training is for all the classes now, we don't separate by class for anything. We mostly give out paper work if it's a freshman issue, anything higher (upper three) is a restriction or tours.

I'm curious about this training on the weekends. What is it? Can you give an example or two? Without acronyms...I'm not fluent in today's language.

In your quote, what is meant by "restriction or tours"?

 

[usna1985]

Just for grins, here’s what USNA was like in the early 80s.

0645-0700 - morning come around for plebes with 3/c
0700 - morning meal formation for all
Open breakfast that ended at 0800 - not mandatory
0750-1130 - classes
1150-1200 - plebe come around with 2/c
1210 - noon meal formation for all
Noon meal - mandatory
1300-1500 - classes
1500-1800 - sports period
1800-1820 - plebe come around with 1/c squad leader
1830 - evening meal formation for all
Followed by evening meal - mandatory for plebes. Upper class could opt out but they could NOT leave the Yard
1915-2000 - Company officer time or club meetings
2000-2300 - mandatory study hour for all classes (1/c had liberty on Fridays) .

The above was M-F. Plebes rated no WEs. They had 3 formations on Saturday and 2 on Sunday.

3/C got 3 WEs per semester - Saturday noon thru Sunday 1800. 2/c got 5 WEs - Sat 0730 thru Sun 1800. 1/c had unlimited WEs Fri after last class thru Sun 1800 (but had duty every 5th WE and couldn’t leave the Yard).

Only 1/c got weeknight liberty and only on Wednesday and only 2nd semester.

There were some variations for varsity athletes.

 

[Stormbird]

This is wonderful ok next question how often are trainings on Saturday For us it's more than half our weekends have some kind of training. Including the 6 hour football games or SAMIs+ training after. Along with Saturdays of just training. Because the current schuedle you provided seems to have a lot of focus on freshman but allows time for other training. It super interesting because leadership uses navy and army as why we shouldn't be doing the training we had for freshman. (Not completely disagreeing out how but now we swung the whole other way).

Hearing from other cadets, is helpful because we're not in 1990,1980 or 1970 anymore, completely different leadership styles and some different beliefs within the current global climate. That's reflexive of how the academy is being run in schuedle and actions now.

Welcome to the Real air force. The pendulum constantly swings, sometimes fast sometimes slow. Unfortunately at usafa it's swinging fast. Get used to it because you will have commanders in the future that are trying to get it all done at one bite and others that are willing to take a more measured approach.

It's a good opportunity to study leadership styles and see what works for the mission, what works for the troops and what works for.. getting promoted.

 

[soccer67]

...and see what works for the mission, what works for the troops and what works for.. getting promoted.

Those newly commissioned may view their career as being a fork in the road with one of three ways to go. Your words perfectly summarize that choice.

 

[ZoomieFrom1994]

Oh all the training is for all the classes now, we don't separate by class for anything. We mostly give out paper work if it's a freshman issue, anything higher (upper three) is a restriction or tours.

However it's not cadet run at least not the last two months. Sure cadets may brief it (PowerPoints) however the last sliver Saturdays have all been planned, run and graded by pp. I don't mean cadets don't plan anything any more....we did we're just told it's not "commanders intent" to do TCCC or land nav so PP will be handling it. Same for drill and ceremonies, grading and anything but briefs (most presentations at least).

How do I know? because it just happened once again again less than 24 notice. No other explanation then "not commanders intent" btw we will be graded in the Culex which is TCCC, land nav and radio signal in about three weeks....which is run by the commander.

The Supt. Is a 92’er.

During my “tenure” there as a cadet (29 JUN 90 through 01 JUN 94), there was definitely a push to go from a “fourth class system” to a “four class system”. So the current Supt. was there during that same time period.

I would imagine that change was brought on when Bradley C. Hosmer became the Supt.

When I went through there as a “four degree”, there definitely was a “fourth class system”. It seemed like it was just us SMACK’s, and then the upper 3 classes. When I was a firstie, there definitely was a delineation between all 4 classes. And IIRC, as “table commandant” as a firstie, the breakfasts and lunches at Mitch’s got a lot quieter. Definitely not how us 94’ers had it as freshman (getting the drink orders correct for the upperclassmen at our table, “ORANGE JUICE WITH ICE FOR THE TABLE COMMANDANT, PLEASE SIR!”, relaying one of our 3 news articles, “SIR MAY I MAKE A STATEMENT? SIR, IN THE COLORADO SPRINGS GAZETTE TELEGRAPH, I READ THAT _____________! , asking for the form O-96, posting a joke at the end of the meal, David Letterman top 10 lists were popular back then)

The other change that occurred at the tables, and it might have been just our cadet squadron that did it my last 3 years there, or maybe just my firstie year was that the 4 degrees served themselves first….they dished food onto their plates first, instead of the “hot pilot” or “cold pilot” passing all the serving dishes up to the table comm first. It was supposed to instill in us that we should take care of our subordinates first.

As far as training goes on Saturdays, at least twice per each fall semester I was there, we had what was called a “triple threat”: a SAMI, an open ranks inspection, and a parade. Then we had to go to the mandatory football games. At least half the cadet wing (first group and second group together….or third and fourth grouo together) had march on at the home football games. SSSSsssssoooo….yeah, those Saturdays were totally shot.

 

[ZoomieFrom1994]

I'm curious about this training on the weekends. What is it? Can you give an example or two? Without acronyms...I'm not fluent in today's language.

In your quote, what is meant by "restriction or tours"?

I would assume by “tours” he meant marching on the terrazzo for 1 hour, in your service dress, with either an M1 Garand or an M-14 rifle at shoulder arms. That was usually done on a Saturday and Sunday. 1 tour = 1 hour of marching (walking, really). 100 tours = 100 hours of marching these punishments = You’re a Centurion.

Usually, a cadet was restricted to just the cadet area until all the tours that were assigned were completed. And in some cases, restrictions could be set for a time period of say a month to 6 months (even if all the tours were completed).

In case of inclement weather, the tours could be marched in the parking lot under Fairchild Hall. Or “confinements” would be authorized, where a cadet was stuck in their room with the door open, and they had to wear their service dress. It used to be that a “confinement” was 1 hour. However, it took 2 confinements to equal 1 tour.

 

[soccer67]

I would assume by “tours” he meant marching on the terrazzo for 1 hour, in your service dress, with either an M1 Garand or an M-14 rifle at shoulder arms.

Sounded like that to me too, except those words didn't seem to relate to the rest of the sentence.

I remember walking tours as a doolie. Proud to say that I once shared the tour pad with a firstie, a future F-105 pilot by the name of Richter.

Do cadets still have rifles in their dorm rooms?

 

[Stormbird]

Sounded like that to me too, except those words didn't seem to relate to the rest of the sentence.

I remember walking tours as a doolie. Proud to say that I once shared the tour pad with a firstie, a future F-105 pilot by the name of Richter.

Do cadets still have rifles in their dorm rooms?

Nope, the 11.54 lb rifle is gone. Not very impressive after watching a parade at usna with rifles and if I remember correctly bayonets affixed.

 

[soccer67]

Nope, the 11.54 lb rifle is gone. Not very impressive after watching a parade at usna with rifles and if I remember correctly bayonets affixed.

I don't think we had bayonets. I don't remember if the M1s had firing pins or not. Gun policy was different then. I think we could keep personal weapons in the sq storage rooms along with civvies, etc. Can't imagine that being the case these days.