whats the jazz about this new supt

[soccer67]

Perhaps a picture might help explain my thoughts on this. This was taken in the winter of 1963. It shows cadets from my squadron in our doolie year. Of the six classmates shown, only two graduated. Of the three I roomed with, one graduated...one quit, and one went on a honor violation. We are in the typical "brace" position on the front edge of the chair.

Things to note. The meal was mandatory. We marched to Mitch's. We all wore the same uniform. Three times a day. Weekends were a bit more relaxed. One might think of this as an example of "military" training, and all four classes participated in it.

If today's leadership decided that returning to this might be one way of getting standards back in line, would this take anything away from academics or sports? I don't think so. If time is the point, then why not better use the existing time rather than add more?

 

[shock-n-awe]

I don’t think putting more emphasis on “military training “ needs to take away time from any other activities in the day. It is simply implementation of more military into every other part of the day. Ie…
Formations and
March to meals versus “walk”
Four class system
Meal time eating with certain protocols and discipline
You always wear clothes, just mostly “military “, not civilian.
Must participate in athletics, military structure and discipline included.
Military courtesies
In barracks protocols and structured rules.
Scheduled times and accountability

These are only a few examples of how to inject “military training “ in most every aspect of the day with the allowances for some personal time. It literally takes no extra time in the day.
There is also going to be dedicated military training blocks ie..drill and ceremony, SAMI’s , Parades etc.as well

I only have to think about k-12 school as an example. Public schools teach academics, STEM, art etc.. Our Catholic school does the exact same in the exact same amount of time and days per year but we manage to also teach Faith and incorporate Jesus in all of our teachings. This Faith based teaching successfully graduates high achieving students as well.

This SA thing is not new and has been highly successful in teaching academics at the highest level while also putting out great military leaders. The history at USAFA may not be as long as the other SA’s but it is still strong, rich, and proven. It will adjust as necessary and continue to do what it is designed to do.

 

[RJB1690]

I apologize in advance if I ruffle some feathers but what some folks seem to miss is that there IS time for Academics and the rest even with increased Military Training and standards. None of what has been described here thus far seems to be more than has been the norm at the other SAs and even at USAFA (at one time). As for the comments that this hampers the research mission, is counter to being a premier STEM school, etc, I say BS. The STEM university where I teach is continually lauded for its research, has a great reputation, yadda yadda yadda but what I see my students doing in their STEM courses is no greater than and often below that of what I experienced at USNA. Its often not even in the same ballpark. As an example, some time ago, a fellow professor was working on their syllabus for a literature course and was told that assigning five books to read and comment on might be too much. Compare that to the "Literature of the Sea" course that I took at USNA during my 1/C year which required FIFTEEN books which was approximately one per week (great course by the way). The difference in level of work required was astounding to me. I see similar levels in Math and many other subject areas. By the way, ALL of my students do video games so they still have leisure time even at a "premiere STEM institution" even as most of them commute to school.

I'll put up the Navy's emphasis on Technology and STEM knowledge against the USAF's any time but I don't see a big call to stop doing P-rades or formations at USNA to allow more time for studying. By the way, the vast majority of mids that I know, even varsity athletes still manage to find some leisure time, even to play video games.

I believe I was agreeing with you and stating that increased time toward military efforts does not automatically mean that time is taken away from academics or athletics. That would only be true if 100% of a cadet's time was divided among three things - military, academics, and athletics. My point is that there is time for other things as well - leisure was an example. Sleep would be another. Hygiene would be still one more. I'm sure there are others as well.

 

[teksmith]

I believe I was agreeing with you and stating that increased time toward military efforts does not automatically mean that time is taken away from academics or athletics. That would only be true if 100% of a cadet's time was divided among three things - military, academics, and athletics. My point is that there is time for other things as well - leisure was an example. Sleep would be another. Hygiene would be still one more. I'm sure there are others as well.

What you are saying is the extra time dedicated to military training would come out of any spare time a cadet may have. Spare time is often utilized to study, do homework, tutor, other academic enrichment. We will group these activities in with "academics". Or, spare time is often used to lift weights, run, swim, etc. This would be grouped in with "athletics". Or, spare time is used to eat, sleep, shop for essentials. Let's call this "living". So if you put more time into military training, it will unquestionably come from one of the categories described above and most likely from "academics" or "athletics" as "living" time has already been reduced to an absolute minimum. Also, I want to reiterate, I am not an opponent to spending more time on military training. But the notion that it won't take away from one of the other areas seems demonstrably illogical.

 

[teksmith]

I don’t think putting more emphasis on “military training “ needs to take away time from any other activities in the day. It is simply implementation of more military into every other part of the day. Ie…
Formations and
March to meals versus “walk”
Four class system
Meal time eating with certain protocols and discipline
You always wear clothes, just mostly “military “, not civilian.
Must participate in athletics, military structure and discipline included.
Military courtesies
In barracks protocols and structured rules.
Scheduled times and accountability

These are only a few examples of how to inject “military training “ in most every aspect of the day with the allowances for some personal time. It literally takes no extra time in the day.
There is also going to be dedicated military training blocks ie..drill and ceremony, SAMI’s , Parades etc.as well

I only have to think about k-12 school as an example. Public schools teach academics, STEM, art etc.. Our Catholic school does the exact same in the exact same amount of time and days per year but we manage to also teach Faith and incorporate Jesus in all of our teachings. This Faith based teaching successfully graduates high achieving students as well.

This SA thing is not new and has been highly successful in teaching academics at the highest level while also putting out great military leaders. The history at USAFA may not be as long as the other SA’s but it is still strong, rich, and proven. It will adjust as necessary and continue to do what it is designed to do.

Agree if more military training is implemented like this it would be negligible impact to other activities. Not sure this is the path they are taking though?

 

[AFrpaso]

I don’t think putting more emphasis on “military training “ needs to take away time from any other activities in the day. It is simply implementation of more military into every other part of the day. Ie…
Formations and
March to meals versus “walk”
Four class system
Meal time eating with certain protocols and discipline
You always wear clothes, just mostly “military “, not civilian.
Must participate in athletics, military structure and discipline included.
Military courtesies
In barracks protocols and structured rules.
Scheduled times and accountability

These are only a few examples of how to inject “military training “ in most every aspect of the day with the allowances for some personal time. It literally takes no extra time in the day.
There is also going to be dedicated military training blocks ie..drill and ceremony, SAMI’s , Parades etc.as well

I only have to think about k-12 school as an example. Public schools teach academics, STEM, art etc.. Our Catholic school does the exact same in the exact same amount of time and days per year but we manage to also teach Faith and incorporate Jesus in all of our teachings. This Faith based teaching successfully graduates high achieving students as well.

This SA thing is not new and has been highly successful in teaching academics at the highest level while also putting out great military leaders. The history at USAFA may not be as long as the other SA’s but it is still strong, rich, and proven. It will adjust as necessary and continue to do what it is designed to do.

I'm going to withhold my opinion on the current state of USAFA until I get a chance to visit and observe for myself.

However, I cannot understand how implementing more military training into every part of the day will literally take no extra time in the day.

- Formations and March to meals versus “walk” Formations suck up a TON of time. Getting the entire wing on the TZO w/ accountability 2-3x a day will kill 20-40mins. The entire wing has to wait until the last squadron is in place behind seats in Mitches before a meal is served. Etc.
- Meal time eating with certain protocols and discipline. Common manners aside, adding protocols and discipline is either going to increase the time it takes for the cadets to eat or its going to mean cadets getting less nutrition.
- Must participate in athletics, military structure and discipline included. This is already a requirement. If you want to add more athletics. . . that's going to take more time.
- In barracks protocols and structured rules. I'm not sure exactly what "protocols and structure rules" you have in mind. I think you'd be hard pressed to find something to add that wouldn't infringe upon a cadet's time. I'd be interested in hearing some examples.
- Scheduled times and accountability. Scheduled times for what? Accountability for what? Beyond what is already in place, I'm confused how this adding more accountability checks wouldn't add hassle and inconvenience with very marginal gains in military training outcomes. Cadets have surprisingly varied schedules. Forcing everyone to be at a certain place at a certain time, beyond what it already in place, is going to do nothing but waste everyone's time.

Again, I'm withholding any opinion on the current state of things until I can see it for myself. Obviously a certain lack of discipline and standards should be reigned in. I just think we need to be realistic about what is feasible. Is the point really to dictate every waking moment of cadet life?

As far as academics go. . . I'll be honest, many majors at USAFA do feel "watered-down" to an extent when compared some other universities by nature of the broad USAFA core curriculum. Cadets just don't get to take as many majors courses as they might elsewhere.

 

[unkown1961]

I said in my post that I expect my DS will receive an excellent education. He will receive a top notch engineering degree. He just knows that if he ever uses it he will likely be managing engineers, not actually engineering.

The same is true of AFROTC engineers, it's no different from USAFA.

 

[Osprey123]

I said in my post that I expect my DS will receive an excellent education. He will receive a top notch engineering degree. He just knows that if he ever uses it he will likely be managing engineers, not actually engineering.

Hopefully your cadet receives an excellent education. I think cadets have to put in a lot of effort to ensure that their education excellent. Honors, research, relevant clubs. I think @AFrpaso has done an excellent job expanding upon the potential impact/concerns of the changes and perspective that at USAFA education can be a watered down.

No idea how the military training improves now that Firsties steer clear of 4th class cadets for fear of ruining their career. They used to train and lead underslassmen.

 

[SF_DAD]

Hopefully your cadet receives an excellent education. I think cadets have to put in a lot of effort to ensure that their education excellent. Honors, research, relevant clubs. I think @AFrpaso has done an excellent job expanding upon the potential impact/concerns of the changes and perspective that at USAFA education can be a watered down.

No idea how the military training improves now that Firsties steer clear of 4th class cadets for fear of ruining their career. They used to train and lead underslassmen.

The Cadets continue to train and lead. Don’t think for a minute that this is not happening.

 

[Sealion II]

I don't know, I think I'd like to keep hearing about Squid's experiences with their Gunnys

I posted this previously in another thread: "My 3/C finished up with USMC portion. Apparently, several Gunnery Sergeants went Defcon 1 on a group of them for attitude, engagement and leadership qualities. I have no idea if it was deserved or not (I'm guessing yes), but all I could think about was Gunny Highway in Heartbreak Ridge. "

 

[SpiritCommitteeLiaison]

I apologize in advance if I ruffle some feathers but what some folks seem to miss is that there IS time for Academics and the rest even with increased Military Training and standards. None of what has been described here thus far seems to be more than has been the norm at the other SAs and even at USAFA (at one time). As for the comments that this hampers the research mission, is counter to being a premier STEM school, etc, I say BS. The STEM university where I teach is continually lauded for its research, has a great reputation, yadda yadda yadda but what I see my students doing in their STEM courses is no greater than and often below that of what I experienced at USNA. Its often not even in the same ballpark. As an example, some time ago, a fellow professor was working on their syllabus for a literature course and was told that assigning five books to read and comment on might be too much. Compare that to the "Literature of the Sea" course that I took at USNA during my 1/C year which required FIFTEEN books which was approximately one per week (great course by the way). The difference in level of work required was astounding to me. I see similar levels in Math and many other subject areas. By the way, ALL of my students do video games so they still have leisure time even at a "premiere STEM institution" even as most of them commute to school.

I'll put up the Navy's emphasis on Technology and STEM knowledge against the USAF's any time but I don't see a big call to stop doing P-rades or formations at USNA to allow more time for studying. By the way, the vast majority of mids that I know, even varsity athletes still manage to find some leisure time, even to play video games.

I completely agree.

My daughter majored in Physics (astro focus) with a minor in Spanish. Not only did she have research opportunities, she and her research team are published -- Identifying satellites by their glint signatures. She traveled to NASA and Chile to do research through the telescopes at those locations. She interned at Johns Hopkins. She spent nights at the USAFA observatory. In addition to her studies, she organized a quartet who sang the national anthem at hockey and basketball games. She sang in the Chorale, played club volleyball, was a Wing Physics tutor, etc. All this while still having noon meal formation every day, training "her Doolies", Flight Commander, Stan-eval officer, etc. The military training while she was there was arguably much more stringent than in recent past. She still had plenty of leisure time - she enjoyed hiking, hanging out with friends, going on retreats, and (believe it or not) playing board games with her sponsor siblings.

There IS time. It is all about time management and making time for those things you want to do.

I will add -- you get out of your education what you put into it. She sought out opportunities. She asked to be included in independent studies. It was a topic she is interested in and so was fun.

 

[SpiritCommitteeLiaison]

Hopefully your cadet receives an excellent education. I think cadets have to put in a lot of effort to ensure that their education excellent. Honors, research, relevant clubs. I think @AFrpaso has done an excellent job expanding upon the potential impact/concerns of the changes and perspective that at USAFA education can be a watered down.

No idea how the military training improves now that Firsties steer clear of 4th class cadets for fear of ruining their career. They used to train and lead underslassmen.

You keep mentioning how your firstie will not train the C4Cs. Has he addressed his concerns with leadership?

 

[shock-n-awe]

I'm going to withhold my opinion on the current state of USAFA until I get a chance to visit and observe for myself.

However, I cannot understand how implementing more military training into every part of the day will literally take no extra time in the day.

- Formations and March to meals versus “walk” Formations suck up a TON of time. Getting the entire wing on the TZO w/ accountability 2-3x a day will kill 20-40mins. The entire wing has to wait until the last squadron is in place behind seats in Mitches before a meal is served. Etc.
- Meal time eating with certain protocols and discipline. Common manners aside, adding protocols and discipline is either going to increase the time it takes for the cadets to eat or its going to mean cadets getting less nutrition.
- Must participate in athletics, military structure and discipline included. This is already a requirement. If you want to add more athletics. . . that's going to take more time.
- In barracks protocols and structured rules. I'm not sure exactly what "protocols and structure rules" you have in mind. I think you'd be hard pressed to find something to add that wouldn't infringe upon a cadet's time. I'd be interested in hearing some examples.
- Scheduled times and accountability. Scheduled times for what? Accountability for what? Beyond what is already in place, I'm confused how this adding more accountability checks wouldn't add hassle and inconvenience with very marginal gains in military training outcomes. Cadets have surprisingly varied schedules. Forcing everyone to be at a certain place at a certain time, beyond what it already in place, is going to do nothing but waste everyone's time.

Again, I'm withholding any opinion on the current state of things until I can see it for myself. Obviously a certain lack of discipline and standards should be reigned in. I just think we need to be realistic about what is feasible. Is the point really to dictate every waking moment of cadet life?

As far as academics go. . . I'll be honest, many majors at USAFA do feel "watered-down" to an extent when compared some other universities by nature of the broad USAFA core curriculum. Cadets just don't get to take as many majors courses as they might elsewhere.

I guess I was trying to elaborate more on what I thought @soccer67 was saying
I’m not suggesting more formations or more anything necessarily. Just assuming most everything I mentioned was a part of the daily routine and that overall it could be done better.
I am not witness to anything at the AFA , only contributing my opinion to those who stated that standards are low and improvement is needed there. If Cadets are “afraid “ of getting into trouble for responsibly training the underclasses then that is a problem, because that is their job.

Hopefully things are much better there than what is described here.

 

[jack42405]

Hopefully things are much better there than what is described here.

Honestly, I think that's the main thing to take away from threads like these, everyone catastrophizes things either way. No the new superintendent isn't going to kill the whole academy by banning firstie berets and not every cadet is on a shaving waiver

 

[soccer67]

...firstie berets...

When did this happen? And why?

 

[T-37IP]

I guess I was trying to elaborate more on what I thought @soccer67 was saying
I’m not suggesting more formations or more anything necessarily. Just assuming most everything I mentioned was a part of the daily routine and that overall it could be done better.
I am not witness to anything at the AFA , only contributing my opinion to those who stated that standards are low and improvement is needed there. If Cadets are “afraid “ of getting into trouble for responsibly training the underclasses then that is a problem, because that is their job.

Hopefully things are much better there than what is described here.

Mine won't go near a "doolie". I just saw an MFR from a freshman ripping on seniors, by name, for correcting greetings. The doolies are at rest at 1605 every day. No minutes, and virtually no training going on.

 

[Theredbaron]

When did this happen? And why?

Beginning of academic year....no clue why but it was one of the initial changes in the big group of changes along with no flight suits except at the airfield, noon meal formation everyday, etc.

Apparently there was confusion on the first day of school because firsties were reminded all week to get their berets if they didn't already have one, and then on the first day a memo went out indicating berets were now forbidden. So on the first day there was a mix of some berets, others regular ocp cover, but after that it has been regular cover only.

 

[FlyFalcon]

When did this happen? And why?

Idk if anyone noticed but cadets aren't given a why for most things. It happened at the beginning of the semester. Just "standards" again we think.

 

[jack42405]

When did this happen? And why?

When the new superintendent came in, it was sent in an OPORD saying it is for standardization purposes. I think that it came from the superintendent given firsties were being told they needed to get their berets up to the end of the summer when he came in, and the new CS&D looks like it was changed in a rush as it states that firsties will not wear berets but also says 2-4 degs are the only ones who wear patrol caps in OCPS.

 

[AA787DRIVER]

Lots of changes it seems this year. It was fun to hear the cadets talk in the long car rides I had this past weekend. They are learning to accept change and deal with new issues. Morning formations was always big in the Army and it was the number one thing that blew me away about USAFA not having. The engineering students who are trying to be top dog and get great grad school slots are studying lots of hours, seems my kid does 5 or 6 hours each weekend day to keep up his great grades.