whats the jazz about this new supt

[HKane]

I'm going to withhold my opinion on the current state of USAFA until I get a chance to visit and observe for myself.

However, I cannot understand how implementing more military training into every part of the day will literally take no extra time in the day.

- Formations and March to meals versus “walk” Formations suck up a TON of time. Getting the entire wing on the TZO w/ accountability 2-3x a day will kill 20-40mins. The entire wing has to wait until the last squadron is in place behind seats in Mitches before a meal is served. Etc.
- Meal time eating with certain protocols and discipline. Common manners aside, adding protocols and discipline is either going to increase the time it takes for the cadets to eat or its going to mean cadets getting less nutrition.
- Must participate in athletics, military structure and discipline included. This is already a requirement. If you want to add more athletics. . . that's going to take more time.
- In barracks protocols and structured rules. I'm not sure exactly what "protocols and structure rules" you have in mind. I think you'd be hard pressed to find something to add that wouldn't infringe upon a cadet's time. I'd be interested in hearing some examples.
- Scheduled times and accountability. Scheduled times for what? Accountability for what? Beyond what is already in place, I'm confused how this adding more accountability checks wouldn't add hassle and inconvenience with very marginal gains in military training outcomes. Cadets have surprisingly varied schedules. Forcing everyone to be at a certain place at a certain time, beyond what it already in place, is going to do nothing but waste everyone's time.

Again, I'm withholding any opinion on the current state of things until I can see it for myself. Obviously a certain lack of discipline and standards should be reigned in. I just think we need to be realistic about what is feasible. Is the point really to dictate every waking moment of cadet life?

As far as academics go. . . I'll be honest, many majors at USAFA do feel "watered-down" to an extent when compared some other universities by nature of the broad USAFA core curriculum. Cadets just don't get to take as many majors courses as they might elsewhere.

Just want to comment on the idea that many majors at USADA seem "watered-down"--without being able to have a substantive discussion on this idea and without knowing specifics about which majors, I will say that my cadet's education at USAFA so far has been excellent. My cadet is a 2027'er in physics and math. Her classes have been very small and personal. Even for the "larger" classes, there have only been 20-25 students in each class. The professors have been excellent for the most part. To compare, I have a kid at a large, very good public university. He is receiving a good education as well, but it's different. His class sizes for the general classes are huge, 300-400 students. The students are anonymous there. At USAFA, the professors know the cadets, and there is so much opportunity if you want it. My cadet has been approached by professors for special projects - I doubt one would get these types of opportunities at other schools, especially as a sophomore. Also, one big difference at USAFA is that the cadets must attend class. Half of the class at my other kids' school doesn't bother showing up most days.

Sometimes to determine quality, we look at indicators like what classes are offered, how many different classes, pedigree of professors; all of these points are factors, but there are other non quantifiable factors to consider as well. For me, the accountability required of cadets, the availability of professors, the small class size have been positive factors in my cadet's education. It is hard to learn and to be motivated to learn when half of your classmates aren't showing up.

My comments pertain to my cadet's own experience and majors. It is possible that there are other majors at USAFA that have limited offerings and might be "watered down" especially if you compare the class catalog to a large school or a school that is renown for certain subjects. However, I think that the learning environment and academic opportunities available at USAFA may make up for the lack of classes offered. Just my impression as a parent; I'm not the one there, I have a lmited sample size for comparison, and I realize every cadet's experience may be different.

 

[soccer67]

Thanks for the beret responses, although I"m still unclear about their status.

This thread makes one thing obvious...the only lasting tradition that the school has is change.

For example, and not sure how many today know this, but there was a time when the fourth class did not go home for Xmas break. Everybody else did, and the doolies were left to administer the daily activities. It was seen as an important bonding and maturation experience. That ended with the class of '67. We went home like everyone else. The upperclass, especially the third class made it abundantly clear that we would never amount to hill of beans because of it.

Back then, cadets had summer activities that have long since gone away. The new C3C had "Third Lieutenant" where we individually spent three weeks or so at a USAF base and were assigned to "work" in a specific unit. I went to Biggs AFB (El Paso, Tx, now closed) and spent my time in a B-52 line maintenance squadron. A Lt was assigned to watch over me and he promptly passed me on to a grizzled old Sgt who made sure I learned about line maintenance while enjoying the sights and sounds of Juarez,

We also had the ZI (Zone of the Interior) field trip in our C3C summer. Got transported around the US visiting USAF, Army, and Navy bases and units.

Then there was the Overseas field trip where the new second class went on a boondoggle to Europe, the Far East, etc. This exercise ended in the mid-60s, probably because of the growing SEA war. Another event my class missed.

Early on, our uniform included khakis as did the regular AF. It was the regular daily UOD.

Outside the dorm rooms was a name tag holder that had a flip/flop device , essentially an "in/out" indicator of where we were. "Out" meant "authorized", used when going to the library, study sessions, etc. This device fell victim to the demands of the Honor Code since being questioned about whether or not we were really out of our room on an authorized activity was seen as the Code being used to enforce regulations.

No doubt that there are many other examples of how things have changed over the years. Waiting to see what the new rules will be.

 

[AFrpaso]

Just want to comment on the idea that many majors at USADA seem "watered-down"--without being able to have a substantive discussion on this idea and without knowing specifics about which majors, I will say that my cadet's education at USAFA so far has been excellent. My cadet is a 2027'er in physics and math. Her classes have been very small and personal. Even for the "larger" classes, there have only been 20-25 students in each class. The professors have been excellent for the most part. To compare, I have a kid at a large, very good public university. He is receiving a good education as well, but it's different. His class sizes for the general classes are huge, 300-400 students. The students are anonymous there. At USAFA, the professors know the cadets, and there is so much opportunity if you want it. My cadet has been approached by professors for special projects - I doubt one would get these types of opportunities at other schools, especially as a sophomore. Also, one big difference at USAFA is that the cadets must attend class. Half of the class at my other kids' school doesn't bother showing up most days.

Sometimes to determine quality, we look at indicators like what classes are offered, how many different classes, pedigree of professors; all of these points are factors, but there are other non quantifiable factors to consider as well. For me, the accountability required of cadets, the availability of professors, the small class size have been positive factors in my cadet's education. It is hard to learn and to be motivated to learn when half of your classmates aren't showing up.

My comments pertain to my cadet's own experience and majors. It is possible that there are other majors at USAFA that have limited offerings and might be "watered down" especially if you compare the class catalog to a large school or a school that is renown for certain subjects. However, I think that the learning environment and academic opportunities available at USAFA may make up for the lack of classes offered. Just my impression as a parent; I'm not the one there, I have a lmited sample size for comparison, and I realize every cadet's experience may be different.

I appreciate the input, @HKane. You've pointed out some compelling strengths of USAFA. The small classes, availability for extra instruction, opportunities for undergraduate research, and structured environment make for an excellent academic experience.

I probably wasn't being fair when I said that majors were "watered-down." I was mostly referring to the fact that so many courses in the core curriculum and other obligations (military, athletics) inevitably makes it difficult to allocate as much time to upper-division major's coursework. Of course, that doesn't capture the whole story. For what it's worth, I know there are others who have made similar observations. There's some more discussion here: https://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/usafa-academics.85457/

My personal experience as a graduate of USAFA's Math Dept was that I felt slightly less-prepared for master's and PhD coursework compared to my graduate school peers. Of course, that may have been insufficient performance on my part and not a result of USAFA's academic structure. It didn't take much time to feel "caught up to speed", though!

At the end of the day I wouldn't trade my USAFA degree with one from any other school.

 

[HKane]

I appreciate the input, @HKane. You've pointed out some compelling strengths of USAFA. The small classes, availability for extra instruction, opportunities for undergraduate research, and structured environment make for an excellent academic experience.

I probably wasn't being fair when I said that majors were "watered-down." I was mostly referring to the fact that so many courses in the core curriculum and other obligations (military, athletics) inevitably makes it difficult to allocate as much time to upper-division major's coursework. Of course, that doesn't capture the whole story. For what it's worth, I know there are others who have made similar observations. There's some more discussion here: https://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/usafa-academics.85457/

My personal experience as a graduate of USAFA's Math Dept was that I felt slightly less-prepared for master's and PhD coursework compared to my graduate school peers. Of course, that may have been insufficient performance on my part and not a result of USAFA's academic structure. It didn't take much time to feel "caught up to speed", though!

At the end of the day I wouldn't trade my USAFA degree with one from any other school.

Thanks for your response especially because you are personally familiar with USAFA’s coursework. I understand what you are saying now so thanks for the further insight.

 

[raimius]

As for academics, as a history major, my masters classes at a Midwest state school had a higher reading load but the grading seemed much easier. I worked quite hard to get high Bs and As at USAFA, but grad work wasn't that hard to keep mid to high As (with one or two professors as exceptions).

 

[Blue&SilverBear]

"More military training will take time away from academics" isn't a good argument. The academic requirements have already been reduced over the last few years, and I know the classes decades before me had a much higher academic workload.

From 2016:
"The core curriculum of the Air Force Academy, Colo., is currently being revised by a panel of Academy faculty in order to reduce the overall number of courses and provide greater flexibility to cadets"

The real question should be, what kind of training is being implemented?

PowerPoint or range time?
Arnold Hall or Jack's Valley?
In the SAR or on the Parade Field?

 

[htusa123]

"More military training will take time away from academics" isn't a good argument. The academic requirements have already been reduced over the last few years, and I know the classes decades before me had a much higher academic workload.

From 2016:
"The core curriculum of the Air Force Academy, Colo., is currently being revised by a panel of Academy faculty in order to reduce the overall number of courses and provide greater flexibility to cadets"

The real question should be, what kind of training is being implemented?

PowerPoint or range time?
Arnold Hall or Jack's Valley?
In the SAR or on the Parade Field?

To answer your last points, all the training currently is the latter. All PowerPoint, all Arnold Hall, all SAR. Nothing that truly makes an individual stronger or more capable as a person. Just death by PowerPoint and the same material we get in summer programs like basic and CST essentially. So, more military training does not equal a more capable LT upon graduation. It needs to be applied to what we will do and what we will face when we graduate.

 

[Stormbird]

I completely agree.

My daughter majored in Physics (astro focus) with a minor in Spanish. Not only did she have research opportunities, she and her research team are published -- Identifying satellites by their glint signatures. She traveled to NASA and Chile to do research through the telescopes at those locations. She interned at Johns Hopkins. She spent nights at the USAFA observatory. In addition to her studies, she organized a quartet who sang the national anthem at hockey and basketball games. She sang in the Chorale, played club volleyball, was a Wing Physics tutor, etc. All this while still having noon meal formation every day, training "her Doolies", Flight Commander, Stan-eval officer, etc. The military training while she was there was arguably much more stringent than in recent past. She still had plenty of leisure time - she enjoyed hiking, hanging out with friends, going on retreats, and (believe it or not) playing board games with her sponsor siblings.

There IS time. It is all about time management and making time for those things you want to do.

I will add -- you get out of your education what you put into it. She sought out opportunities. She asked to be included in independent studies. It was a topic she is interested in and so was fun.

^^^^^^THIS
If I could hit like five times on this I would.

 

[foxtail0520]

"More military training will take time away from academics" isn't a good argument. The academic requirements have already been reduced over the last few years, and I know the classes decades before me had a much higher academic workload.

From 2016:
"The core curriculum of the Air Force Academy, Colo., is currently being revised by a panel of Academy faculty in order to reduce the overall number of courses and provide greater flexibility to cadets"

The real question should be, what kind of training is being implemented?

PowerPoint or range time?
Arnold Hall or Jack's Valley?
In the SAR or on the Parade Field?

Range time would be amazing

 

[raimius]

Range time would be amazing

Urge cadets to get the Combat Shooting Team back to it's former self...

 

[Gradkidandmom]

Just want to comment on the idea that many majors at USADA seem "watered-down"--without being able to have a substantive discussion on this idea and without knowing specifics about which majors, I will say that my cadet's education at USAFA so far has been excellent. My cadet is a 2027'er in physics and math. Her classes have been very small and personal. Even for the "larger" classes, there have only been 20-25 students in each class. The professors have been excellent for the most part. To compare, I have a kid at a large, very good public university. He is receiving a good education as well, but it's different. His class sizes for the general classes are huge, 300-400 students. The students are anonymous there. At USAFA, the professors know the cadets, and there is so much opportunity if you want it. My cadet has been approached by professors for special projects - I doubt one would get these types of opportunities at other schools, especially as a sophomore. Also, one big difference at USAFA is that the cadets must attend class. Half of the class at my other kids' school doesn't bother showing up most days.

Sometimes to determine quality, we look at indicators like what classes are offered, how many different classes, pedigree of professors; all of these points are factors, but there are other non quantifiable factors to consider as well. For me, the accountability required of cadets, the availability of professors, the small class size have been positive factors in my cadet's education. It is hard to learn and to be motivated to learn when half of your classmates aren't showing up.

My comments pertain to my cadet's own experience and majors. It is possible that there are other majors at USAFA that have limited offerings and might be "watered down" especially if you compare the class catalog to a large school or a school that is renown for certain subjects. However, I think that the learning environment and academic opportunities available at USAFA may make up for the lack of classes offered. Just my impression as a parent; I'm not the one there, I have a lmited sample size for comparison, and I realize every cadet's experience may be different.

I totally agree with this. My cadet has had a similar experience

 

[soccer67]

Got some info about new policies from the Supt, from one of my classmates who lives locally and remains involved in academy events:

1. Shorter haircuts for everyone.
2. Previous policy was that only the Mon/Wed/Fri noon meal was mandatory and marched to. Added Tues and Thurs. Status of breakfast and dinner not known.
3. Previous policy allowed "upperclass" to leave the academy any day of the week including overnight, must be back by next scheduled activity. Current policy not known.

Additional info and corrections appreciated.

 

[unkown1961]

Shorter than regs? That seems silly.
I’m still fascinated how a general can fail into a gig like this. A captain or major wouldn’t be able to.

 

[Theredbaron]

The pass system has been changed. Each class gets a designated number of passes per month that do not rollover. If you stay overnight, it requires 2 passes. There are no "Weekend passes" to cover the entire weekend. Each day uses a pass. Passes are currently reduced by half I believe because the 92% AMI or SAMI (not sure which) was not met. It was 91.4% average across the wing. It is assumed passes will increase to the "new normal" once scores increase but no guarantee at this point. C2cs currently get 4 passes per month with the reduction. Supposedly extra passes may be awarded for achieving Dean's, Com's, Athletic's lists, but I don't think my cadet has seen any increase yet.

Breakfast and dinner are not mandatory, but with mandatory training at 7am, cadets must get to Mitch's, eat, and return to squad by 7. Breakfast closes at 8, with grab and go closing at 8:30 I think. My cadet chooses extra sleep before class over breakfast at Mitch's and just keeps snacks in his room. When morning formations were happening at 6:30, it was just about impossible to eat breakfast, but from what I understand morning formation has been stopped at least temporarily to reevaluate.

 

[galaxyblue77]

The pass system has been changed. Each class gets a designated number of passes per month that do not rollover. If you stay overnight, it requires 2 passes. There are no "Weekend passes" to cover the entire weekend. Each day uses a pass. Passes are currently reduced by half I believe because the 92% AMI or SAMI (not sure which) was not met. It was 91.4% average across the wing. It is assumed passes will increase to the "new normal" once scores increase but no guarantee at this point. C2cs currently get 4 passes per month with the reduction. Supposedly extra passes may be awarded for achieving Dean's, Com's, Athletic's lists, but I don't think my cadet has seen any increase yet.

Breakfast and dinner are not mandatory, but with mandatory training at 7am, cadets must get to Mitch's, eat, and return to squad by 7. Breakfast closes at 8, with grab and go closing at 8:30 I think. My cadet chooses extra sleep before class over breakfast at Mitch's and just keeps snacks in his room. When morning formations were happening at 6:30, it was just about impossible to eat breakfast, but from what I understand morning formation has been stopped at least temporarily to reevaluate.

Do you happen to know if same rule applies for C4Cs? Specifically, i wonder if they get 4 passes per month as well - I plan on taking a trip to see her in Oct. during Columbus weekend but she doesnt seem to know if she will be able to leave the base.

 

[FlyFalcon]

Do you happen to know if same rule applies for C4Cs? Specifically, i wonder if they get 4 passes per month as well - I plan on taking a trip to see her in Oct. during Columbus weekend but she doesnt seem to know if she will be able to leave the base.

Well it's halfed so 2 passes a month for C4Cs as 4 is the standard, we do have passes for Sunday. C3C have 3, C2Cs four and C1Cs 6. Passes do not roll over so you get what you get. We have not been told any other information since the cut of the passes.

 

[soccer67]

When morning formations were happening at 6:30, it was just about impossible to eat breakfast...

No, it wasn't. In fact, that was what life was like for a number of years. I imagine few of us liked it, we would probably have opted out for more rack time, but nobody asked if we liked it or not.

 

[jack42405]

No, it wasn't. In fact, that was what life was like for a number of years. I imagine few of us liked it, we would probably have opted out for more rack time, but nobody asked if we liked it or not.

Just curious did you have mando breakfast before 0630 formation or was it formation then breakfast?

 

[flieger83]

Sounds like what we had when I was a cadet.

We also barbecued the last TZO dino's...

 

[soccer67]

Just curious did you have mando breakfast before 0630 formation or was it formation then breakfast?

Apologies for dimmed memories on time specifics. Yes, breakfast was mandatory M-F, maybe Sat and Sun too. The routine was wake up, form up, march to Mitch's, walk back, tidy room up, go to class. Each morning we were aroused from our slumbers by a doolie standing at the end of the dorm hallway and yelling "the UOD is _____and there are ____minutes to form up" (or something like that). We had about 5 minutes to get up, get dressed, and hustle out to the TZO for the squadron formation.

Rooms were prepped for inspection every morning. Not to SAMI standards, but close. I'll always remember as a doolie coming back to my room after class, opening the room door to find the AOC on his hands and knees looking for dirty commie pinkos or something under my bed. It was awkward but he survived it as did I.