Whip-sawed Parent

Excellent post Spud. As an example of #3, my Marine Option son joined NROTC wanting to fly. By the end of his first year, he wanted to get into MARSOC so he could train foreign troops. Now it looks like that mission is going away and DS has no idea at the moment regarding what he wants to do in the Corps. However, I can assure you he will be an excellent officer regardless of where he ends up. He still has a year to figure that out, or have the Marine Corps figure it out for him! :)
 
Very human thread by Dr J and nice post by Capt MJ.

I love the PD/POQ title. I am going to use this in dealing with people in fields I know little about. Here's some quick answers for what they are worth:

#2 The only personality trait that is a real negative is the prima dona who cannot work as a team member, does not care about others or the mission of the team. The individualist who can never see beyond his own agenda should stay a long ways away from the military.

Spud is right, such a person should be or already is in Hollywood or a politician.
 
Sorry, let me correct the quote posted by me as Spud did not say "they belong in or Hollywood or a politician." Don't mean to be PD/PO! That is a good acronym and should be added to the list.
 
One thing I did have a problem with was others who wondered why we would let our son do that?!?!? WHat do you mean he wants to go in the infantry? You told him no, right?" That stuff really pissed me off especially from my sister-in-law. Finally one night I told her this was his calling and she needs to support him in doing it. Also, I didn't want to hear all of her whiny concerns anymore. Haven't heard a peep out of her about it since.

Maybe it is because we have quite a bit of military heritage in both of our families, but any so-called "advice" like that, public or private would have been summarily crushed. If you respect your son's wishes enough to let him find his course in life, one of dignity and positive impact on others; then who the heck are they to tell him differently?

I could see the discussion happening between enlisted/ commissioned and college now/ later; but just to ask, "How could you let him join the Marines" is way off base.
 
I love the PD/POQ title. I am going to use this in dealing with people in fields I know little about. Here's some quick answers for what they are worth:

1. The join-the-Navy-as-an-officer route is officially called OCS or Officer Candidate School. A person applies just like all the other programs and, if qualified and the Navy likes what it sees, you are accepted. It is an approximately 3 month officer boot camp, if you will, where the military aspect of 4 years of NROTC or USNA get force fed to you with a fire hose. Some excellent officers come from this program. I met one who was a company officer at USNA, in fact.

After a person gets their Ensign's bars, the way you got them is immaterial. You are judged on how you perform for the rest of your career, not where you came from. The old academy ring knocker stories are absolute myths. There is no "Old Boy" network that outsiders cannot crack. Colin Powell, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was an Army ROTC grad. If anything, Academy grads as junior officers are hammered a bit harder for screwing up as they are expected to be more up to speed on what to do in the military. However, as a group of officers gets more senior, the percentage of Academy grads increases but not because they are are blessed by Tecumseh but because they did a good job for their entire career. The military is a pyramid and rising tide of officers have to leave in order for it to work----only one guy can be the Chief of Naval Operations. A lot of non-academy officers leave for very logical reasons. ROTC sells itself a great way to get an education and you pay it back by serving as an officer for a number of years. Small wonder after the payment is made a lot of people leave. OCS can be for different reasons like a miserable economy or a desire for adventure. One day the adventures stop and you find yourself driving desks instead of war machines. Those people leave. The Academy grads leave too (I did) but the chances of an Academy grad wanting and liking a career and staying in is a bit higher just because they probably have wanted it for a long time and worked awfully hard to get it.


#2 The only personality trait that is a real negative is the prima dona who cannot work as a team member, does not care about others or the mission of the team. The individualist who can never see beyond his own agenda should stay a long ways away from the military.

#3 I think you are overthinking this. Goals change as a person gets education and experience. Very few people wind up in life where they thought they would be and same with our kids. They change course in life and sometimes life changes them.


Very helpful--thank you, Spud!
RE #1 : Your explanation of the three paths to being a Navy officer makes a ton of sense.
RE #2: DS not a prima dona, works well in groups/teams, respects authority, etc. but he does have the capacity to think outside the box and will speak up in a measured sort of way. I think he knows when to zip it, too.
RE #3: I have been over thinking this, definitely. DS's BGO had two sons at USNA, one leaving after his second year and the other leaving after fulfilling his 5 year obligation, so this was one of the templates I had in my head. Then I started looking at posts on the SAF recently, picked up on the sentiment that I referenced above and I think this triggered a "moment." All better now. I respect others' opinions and appreciate the opportunity to have my thinking challenged.
 
Love this thread. As a parent of a DD-this whole process began almost a year ago when she received a postcard from USNA. That was it. She was very interested and we did not stop her. She did not get invited to NASS but we sent her to Tennis Camp instead at USNA. She did go to CVW and loved it. We have enlisted (Army) folks in our family, but no officers to date. Scared? Yes, there were days, in the beginning where I could not sleep worrying she would get in to all of the SA's she applied to. I explain to folks that regardless of the outcome, she has grown, knows herself better and is very confident now. It was not wasted effort or $ in sending her to visit the SA's. Living in a liberal state, I have explained to folks that have asked why she is applying, that we are not stopping her as this is what she wants to do. Her backup plan is MA. Maritime, her "original" school before the postcard. During the process, we were fortunate to meet an incredible BGO. A very wise and helpful man who kept our DD's hope alive. God bless. She may not wind up at a SA as she did not get a nomination but I do not have sleepless nights as I know things will work out. She is already planning on applying again for 2020. Until the TWE arrives, she's still in the game.
 
Couldn't have said it better myself MDDADD. Nice to know other parents are going through similar thought processes. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!
 
This thread should really be a sticky at the top. The questions and information coming from this thread is very noteworthy and more parents should read this.

I don't have anything to add to what's been told DrJ but to say thank you for coming on here and expressing your concerns to spur such a great thread.
 
DrJ, we’re right where you are, right now. VelveteenKid accepted USMA last night over USNA and his two top-tier EA civilian schools. I’m trying not to retch. He has spent the past four years 3,000 miles away from home at a New England boarding school where service academies are not anyone’s first choice. We were counting on either a DQ or the low acceptance rate to make our angst moot, but here we are buckling up to support our only child on a tough ride. It never made any sense to argue with him as we knew he’d be 18 by the time any appointments were offered, so we’d have no say. Even suggesting that he might enjoy a more normal college experience if he went the (N)ROTC route was dismissed as he considers his LAC-like boarding school experience a “normal” college experience substitute.

So, today is day one for us in coming to terms with the fact that we will soon be a “military family.” I can barely write that. I have no qualms with the quality of the education at the academy, but I am terrified of the potential for the ultimate sacrifice. This past October, one of our son’s closest friends was killed in a jeep roll-over accident on the way back from a weekend camping trip. He was not wearing his seat belt; everyone else in the jeep walked away without serious injury. This boy’s death hit us all very hard. Over winter break, our son told me that he wanted to say a few things about my concern that he might make the ultimate sacrifice. He started off by saying, “Mom, if you’re ever standing before my flag-draped casket <mom-tears started here>, I want you to know that it’s OK to cry, it’s OK to grieve, but I want you to know that I won’t consider my death meaningless.” He went on to say, “You can have the comfort that I willingly chose this path fully understanding this potential consequence, and I’m OK with it. No matter how I died, even if it’s an accident or friendly fire, I died pursuing a cause I believe in, and that can never be meaningless.” He said a few other things, then he hugged me for a long time and said, “This hug is for that time if it ever comes. Remember this. I will be hugging you then in spirit and always, and I hope you will remember my words and not grieve in an empty way.” He was deeply affected by the “meaninglessness” of his friend’s death from not wearing his seatbelt and tried to reassure me that I should not fear whatever he may face. We held him close over the holiday, emotionally and physically.

I love my son fiercely and am finding meaning in every moment I have with him. He graduates June 7th and will be at the academy three weeks later. He’s never really coming home again, just a bit of leave here and there. I can barely breathe, but I will start hanging here for support as we start this journey and learn, along with you and all the other new SA parents here, what this commitment really means.

God bless us, every one.
 
DrJ, we’re right where you are, right now. VelveteenKid accepted USMA last night over USNA and his two top-tier EA civilian schools. I’m trying not to retch. He has spent the past four years 3,000 miles away from home at a New England boarding school where service academies are not anyone’s first choice. We were counting on either a DQ or the low acceptance rate to make our angst moot, but here we are buckling up to support our only child on a tough ride. It never made any sense to argue with him as we knew he’d be 18 by the time any appointments were offered, so we’d have no say. Even suggesting that he might enjoy a more normal college experience if he went the (N)ROTC route was dismissed as he considers his LAC-like boarding school experience a “normal” college experience substitute.

So, today is day one for us in coming to terms with the fact that we will soon be a “military family.” I can barely write that. I have no qualms with the quality of the education at the academy, but I am terrified of the potential for the ultimate sacrifice. This past October, one of our son’s closest friends was killed in a jeep roll-over accident on the way back from a weekend camping trip. He was not wearing his seat belt; everyone else in the jeep walked away without serious injury. This boy’s death hit us all very hard. Over winter break, our son told me that he wanted to say a few things about my concern that he might make the ultimate sacrifice. He started off by saying, “Mom, if you’re ever standing before my flag-draped casket <mom-tears started here>, I want you to know that it’s OK to cry, it’s OK to grieve, but I want you to know that I won’t consider my death meaningless.” He went on to say, “You can have the comfort that I willingly chose this path fully understanding this potential consequence, and I’m OK with it. No matter how I died, even if it’s an accident or friendly fire, I died pursuing a cause I believe in, and that can never be meaningless.” He said a few other things, then he hugged me for a long time and said, “This hug is for that time if it ever comes. Remember this. I will be hugging you then in spirit and always, and I hope you will remember my words and not grieve in an empty way.” He was deeply affected by the “meaninglessness” of his friend’s death from not wearing his seatbelt and tried to reassure me that I should not fear whatever he may face. We held him close over the holiday, emotionally and physically.

I love my son fiercely and am finding meaning in every moment I have with him. He graduates June 7th and will be at the academy three weeks later. He’s never really coming home again, just a bit of leave here and there. I can barely breathe, but I will start hanging here for support as we start this journey and learn, along with you and all the other new SA parents here, what this commitment really means.

God bless us, every one.

I read this at work and tears welled in my eyes--tissues were needed.

We have experienced some losses, too, and there have been times I have thought "haven't we all been through enough already?!? Why do we have to face THIS?!?"

I worry about my DS's likely choice to go to a SA in terms of increasing risks to him. I know that even if I were in charge of his choices, which I should not be, he could fall in the shower, be hit by a car riding his bike, contract meningitis, etc and die or be horribly disabled. I know that ALL of these risks are very, very low base rate, including risks at a SA or in a subsequent military career, but he is choosing a SA and that career, and the other risks seem less a choice, that they are risks he would work to avoid: He'd put anti-slip material down in that shower! Wear his bike helmet and stay on the bike path! Get that vaccine and not share drinking glasses with his friends!

I also struggle with the idea of his doing harm to others. I am not a pacifist, I know there are circumstances in which I could and would do harm to another person, but it would haunt me and I think it would haunt him, too. And what if he had to make a decision that sacrificed some of those serving under him in order to achieve a greater good? It's at those moments I fervently wish he would be an accountant, a dentist, a history teacher, ANYTHING other than serve in the military. Then I whip-saw around and think: if not my son, then whose? I want the best and brightest and most ethical in my military and that would be my son.

I assure you that I don't struggle with these thoughts all the time, but I do find myself awake in the middle of the night occasionally, wrestling with these thoughts and feelings and I know I am not alone. A friend whose 40 plus year old son did a three year stint stateside as a JAG told me he had diarrhea the entire 3 years and was terrified every time a dark sedan pulled up in front of his house. And this is the most "chill", non-drama-queen person you can imagine.

We may not agree with one another on this forum, but I do appreciate the honesty and support we show one another. And I really appreciate VelveteenR for drawing this discussion out.
 
I empathize with the concerns of parents about the safety of their sons (now daughters too) regarding the life and death risks to their grown children in the military. Your feelings are real, sincere, and terrible in the way they haunt you. I am not belittling those feelings in any way, however, as a member in the military in wartime and the father of sons, I must tell you something. You are over thinking this and are focused on the wrong thing. I almost begged my sons to go into the military because I knew young men and what they do with testosterone and no functioning brain cells can be absolutely lethal in the civilian world.

How many times have you seen young men roaring down the highway weaving in and out of traffic on a motorcycle literally inches from eternity? Has your son ever come home and announced he went skydiving and it is so cool? How about scuba diving? Flying lessons perhaps? How about drinking games at State University? Mexico over spring break with a carful of half- drunk teenagers? Bungee jumping? Homemade rockets? Mountain climbing? Extreme (fill in the name of some hair-raising stunt)? How about drugs with friends? There’s a lot more but you get the idea……and young men have killed themselves with depressing regularity doing all of those because nobody really gave a rip about those kids during the activity. Young men are out to prove themselves to each other and society and pick these dangerous ways to do it. Combine that with modern society that has few ways for young males to prove themselves and it is a recipe for disaster for many. Outside of sports and the military, where else can a young male test himself against his peers, set values, and himself to see what he is made of?

Now take that same kid as he goes into the military. Your grown child is looked upon by the drill instructors as the most sloppy, undisciplined, ignorant, pathetic sack of warm breath (I am being kind here) that has ever walked the face of the earth. When the military is through with his group of sad sacks over the next months, they will, in addition to being disciplined, in shape, and confident, indeed know how to: set off explosives, scuba dive, skydive, fly airplanes, climb mountains, launch rockets, shoot large caliber guns, and lord knows what other activities that would turn their mothers hair white. And they would know how to do those things over and over and over again safely with no accidents. They would have been taught by lifelong experts, not somebody trying to make a buck, and they would learn how to look out for each other. They would know what danger really looks likes and they would always have a senior looking out for them and responsible for what happens. Now combine all that with an absolutely zero drug tolerance as well as a really heavy hand against alcohol and people are protected like they never are in the civilian world.

The media would have you believe that the US serviceman is just a target wherever there is combat. Far from it. When the US military goes on the move, it is enemy that feels the fear. The individual soldier/sailor/airman almost to a man feels only that he wants to do his job and do it well. Every military action is tied to a specific mission, there is a higher command structure with tremendous firepower at its disposal that follows individual units, and help is a radio call away. I don’t care if you are in a jet fighter or a Marine infantry platoon, you have help, back-up and somebody is watching. (I cannot say that about the police. There is a group that is really hung out to dry when things go bad and I have the utmost respect for their bravery.) The civilian world has precious little of this cohesion, protection, and plain safety consciousness. The safest place I could think of for my sons was in uniform.
 
Thanks for your words, Spud. I have heard and read that line of reasoning from several sources and appreciate its truth. However, our son is already disciplined, in shape (varsity rower), and confident and has spent four years at a boarding school with zero-tolerance for drugs in a tight-knit community of high-achievers who support each other through rigorous academics, little down time, and even less sleep. A couple of his older classmates who are at Army and Navy tell him that he won't notice any difference except the food is a bit better and he won't have to do his own laundry. I have never lost a wink of sleep worrying about him engaging in risky behavior. He's an Eagle Scout; when he's home in the summer or on BS breaks, he's working with his troop, counseling at camp, involved in community service, or working out. He has never shown a propensity to "prove himself" in any way other than being the best he can be at whatever he sets his hand to. I am sure he will make a fine officer, and I am also sure that these traits that I've described are part of what made him attractive to the academies. I'm sure USMA will kick his butt in ways he has yet to experience, but he certainly doesn't need the military to keep him safe.
 
I also agree with VelveteenR. Most of these young men who have have received appointments are probably young menand women who have been raised with a good head on their shoulders and goals they want to attain. I see the benefits of my DS attending the USMA, but he would of been fine going to Johns Hopkins or USC as well. Being in law enforcement myself, I don't worry about the "danger" part as much, probably because I never think about it as part of my job. I think the hands down best advantage to the SA is the leadership they will learn. Whether they decide to make it a career or decide to leave after 5 yrs, nobody their age will have the leadership qualities that these young men and women have. That makes me happy to know that no matter where he goes, people will know what they are getting as far as a leader.

Like Velveteen said, for me it's just about the time away from my first son and knowing he may never live at home again. I'm very close to both of my boys and I always thought that we would still have lots of time together during college to still do the little things we like to do. It's hard, but when I look at the big picture and how amazing this opportunity is, I know its something that is right for him. :)
 
Damn allergies... anyways.

These amazing young people can give back to the world in so many different ways, and they choose military service. Then you look at their character, their ethos, their nature, and you eventually come to a moment of crystal clarity and realize they are on a path that is destined for them.

We are convinced our DS is the most laid back and chill individual on the face of the earth (frustratingly so!!! LOL). And then we remember everything this laid back dude has still managed to accomplish in his life so far, the traps he's avoided others did not, and how he conducts himself personally. And we reflect upon how we've seen him truly angry exactly twice in his two decades on earth; both times in the defense of others....

******
Always strong for his slight build, this passionate soccer player choose defense instead of attack as it suited his mentality. Muscling people off, never shying away from challenges, this resolute defender calmly went about his tasks as the ultimate stopper while being the least penalized player on his teams; a very rare combination (and a clue if we had been paying attention!). He would endure the nastiest reactions and fouls from frustrated forwards, even being spit upon without so much as a peep; confident that if he they had become that frustrated then he must be doing his job correctly.

And then it happens... A hotly contested game against a much older and much larger team. It turned quite physical and the opposing players were targeting the smallest player on DS's team. Nastiest game we have ever seen. DS goes to referees repeatedly as Captain to secure some protection for his players, to no avail. Things continue to devolve and it's clear to everyone that this tiny player (and others) are going to get seriously hurt. Finally, this look of grim resolve comes across DS's face. Out of options, he switches assignments around on the field and the parents realize he's set himself as marking the biggest, baddest opposing player; fully two years and 40 lbs+ his better. The very next ball they go up for, DS completely melts this man-child.... crumples him into a writhing heap on the ground. Total devastation. Calm as you please, he turns to the ref, gives a respectful nod and heads for the sideline before the stunned ref can even produce the red card.

The tenor of the game is instantly changed and things play out with little further incident. Afterwards we struggle with how to address the situation. We ask him about what he was saying so somberly to his coaches and teammates as he left the game. Turns out he was apologizing for not figuring out a better way to protect his team.
******

These are the types of young people that choose to serve as officers in our military. We owe it to them to let them follow their destiny with our unqualified love and support.
 
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So, today is day one for us in coming to terms with the fact that we will soon be a “military family.” I can barely write that. I have no qualms with the quality of the education at the academy, but I am terrified of the potential for the ultimate sacrifice. This past October, one of our son’s closest friends was killed in a jeep roll-over accident on the way back from a weekend camping trip. He was not wearing his seat belt; everyone else in the jeep walked away without serious injury. This boy’s death hit us all very hard. Over winter break, our son told me that he wanted to say a few things about my concern that he might make the ultimate sacrifice. He started off by saying, “Mom, if you’re ever standing before my flag-draped casket <mom-tears started here>, I want you to know that it’s OK to cry, it’s OK to grieve, but I want you to know that I won’t consider my death meaningless.” He went on to say, “You can have the comfort that I willingly chose this path fully understanding this potential consequence, and I’m OK with it. No matter how I died, even if it’s an accident or friendly fire, I died pursuing a cause I believe in, and that can never be meaningless.” He said a few other things, then he hugged me for a long time and said, “This hug is for that time if it ever comes. Remember this. I will be hugging you then in spirit and always, and I hope you will remember my words and not grieve in an empty way.” He was deeply affected by the “meaninglessness” of his friend’s death from not wearing his seatbelt and tried to reassure me that I should not fear whatever he may face. We held him close over the holiday, emotionally and physically.

I read this to my DS (USMA class of 2019) and husband. After I read it, my son said to me, "Well, I guess you want a hug now?" Of course I did and he did not rush the hug. :)
Thanks for sharing with us your conversation with your DS.
 
Spud: I do appreciate your thoughts and feelings, even if we are miles apart on this issue. I like the challenge of hearing a different perspective, especially from someone who has experienced military life.

If I had a DS like the one you describe, I would more easily hand him over to USNA, hoping they could simultaneously keep him from self-destructing while they also knocked some sense, skills, discipline and respect for self/others into him.

But like VelveteenR, my DS is nothing like this. Part of the appeal of the USNA to him is that he thinks he will have to deal with many fewer of this type of person than if he attends even a top tier university.

MDDAD expresses my feelings well: I feel like the Navy needs my DS more than he needs the Navy. And I love your idea of having DS/DD write a letter to self, both to aid in the discernment process as well as to refer to when the going gets tough, because we know it will, no matter which path DS/DD chooses.

Makes me think what my letter to self would have been as I embarked on having children--I hope it would have been to make sure my children ended up being the people they were meant to be, even if that diverged pretty significantly from my vision of things.
 
I think serving in the military often is a calling as the OP mentioned, especially for members of the officer corps. DS's original plan was to enlist in the Marine Corps with 2 of his high school buddies. OK by me but his Mom was dead set against him going in the military. There were a lot of arguments at the dinner table for a few months during his junior year. I kept explaining to my wife privately that since he'll be 18 when he graduates, she really can't stop him from enlisting. I think it finally sunk in when she changed her tune to "OK. College first and if your going into the military you will do it as an officer." That's when he started looking at NROTC (at Mom's suggestion) and became enamored of it. He started an application to USNA but never finished it, as he wanted a normal college experience. His Mom became very supportive and really helped drive the search for colleges and visits. Of course she is still worried about him but is also very very proud and supportive. NROTC has been the center of my son's life and I often explain that his academic major is History but it's really NROTC.

One of DS's buddies did enlist in the Marines. The other is in AFROTC and will commission within days of my son this May.

One thing I did have a problem with was others who wondered why we would let our son do that?!?!? WHat do you mean he wants to go in the infantry? You told him no, right?" That stuff really pissed me off especially from my sister-in-law. Finally one night I told her this was his calling and she needs to support him in doing it. Also, I didn't want to hear all of her whiny concerns anymore. Haven't heard a peep out of her about it since.

Hope there is something useful to someone in these ramblings! :)

Thanks for your comments, especially on the issue of others' reactions to a child's decision to apply to a SA or consider ROTC.
We live in a very liberal part of the country, and I have had friends look at me as if I have three heads when I tell them what DS is considering.
It's made for some awkward moments.
But it's also resulted in a number of friends sharing the deep regrets they have for interfering with their DS/DD's choice of college and career path, and that's the part I hang onto.
 
Whip, your post reminded me of some things that were said to me when my twins decided to go USAFA (their goal was to go to college together, and to go "for free."). Some people asked us "Why aren't those smart boys going to college?" ::scratch head and squint:: "why would they want to waste their lives?" Oh, I think we used to have a thread here called something like "Say WHAT?" that described incidents like this.

For these dedicated young people, the Service Academies represent a type of calling, and a dedication to service. Some, yes, may find that it's not for them, and no one will condemn them for that. In fact, that's laudable! For those who make it through the four years, many look back on it as the best time of their lives (as do some college students)(and excepting BCT).
 
DrJ--I suggest you spend 66 minutes watching the speech Vice Admiral Ted Carter gave at Johns Hopkins in January (It's on you tube). This guy is IMPRESSIVE. He lays out an incredible vision for the future of the USNA. If you don't want your son to be part of this after you watch his speech than it probably isn't the place for him (you). I watched it twice and my only regret is that I am too old to apply! I was so impressed with him. Compared to the leadership on most college campuses today, he was strikingly refreshing.
 
But like VelveteenR, my DS is nothing like this. Part of the appeal of the USNA to him is that he thinks he will have to deal with many fewer of this type of person than if he attends even a top tier university.

DrJ, please tell me that your son does fully realize that his entire academy experience is designed to assist him in eventually leading and training ‘this type of person’ referred to above. Those enlisted types that he does not seem to want ‘to deal with’ per your message above.

Tread very carefully. Many on this board are/were enlisted, or have children who are.

An extremely interesting discussion nonetheless.
 
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