Why do they call it "Reserve" OTC

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navyfamilyof4

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just curious why its called that and how its different from other ways of training to be an officer in the Navy (or any of the AF's)

thanks!
 
mcfamilyof4 said:
just curious why its called that and how its different from other ways of training to be an officer in the Navy (or any of the AF's)

thanks!
Click to expand...

Would you provide a link to the source using “Reserve OTC” for Navy? Just so I know better how to address.

The Navy OCS in Newport, RI is a pre-comm program for candidates who have their college degrees, including enlisted personnel who have gotten their degree. OCs already know their service selection going in, such as SWO, Navy Air, etc. The classroom work is the same stuff USNA and NROTC mids get in terms of professional knowledge, very intense. Several hours in the classroom each day, drill/marching/parades, athletic periods, PRT testing, swim testing, tower jump into pool, room and uniform inspections, standing watch, doing security clearance paperwork, pre-comm physicals, lots of shots, leadership opportunities as a section becomes more senior.

OCS is very selective and cherry-picks candidates to round out new ensign goals for the year, as well as meet other recruiting goals. STEM majors from competitive universities are always desirable. Candidates have a higher age limit and can be married, though everyone lives in company area. There used to be Yard Patrol (YP) boats there, for shipboard training and actual maneuvering of a vessel. I don’t think they are there anymore. And oh yes, perhaps they still have the session in the damage control trainer, where you are in a space with water flooding in and you have to work as a team to plug holes and de-water the space. OCS go active duty to ships and training pipelines just as USNA and NROTC grads do.

I have always been a bit hazy about the path taken by a Reserve officer who comes in as a Reserve and continues as a Reserve after commissioning, and does not go AD. I would assume they attend some kind of OCS, but I realize most of the Reserve officers I worked with had started AD then separated and joined Navy Reserve.

Officer Training Command - OCS Mission - SP

www.public.navy.mil www.public.navy.mil
 
Here’s an interesting bit of history on NROTC

NAVAL RESERVE OFFICERS TRAINING CORPS – Just another NUsites site

www.northwestern.edu www.northwestern.edu

My best guess on the “Reserve” is that for many years, NROTC grads earned a Reserve commission, though most still went AD. Reserve can refer to a type of commission OR type of duty, which has always caused confusion. Officers with a Reserve commission on AD have slightly different conditions attached to their commission, relating to obligated service and how they can be involuntarily separated. An example is that during a personnel drawdown, an AD officer with a Reserve commission, who has completed their service obligation years, can receive a letter mid-tour from Big Navy thanking them for their service and indicating to expect separation orders in X days. No recourse. AD officers with Regular commissions have more protections. But - they can also be directed to remain on active duty longer, even if they have completed their obligation and want to get out, in times of personnel shortages.

Anyone with a Reserve type commission on AD is either given an opportunity to convert to Regular or is automatically converted after a set number of years unless they opt out. As an OCS grad, I received a Reserve type commission instead of Regular. After 2 years on AD, I received a letter saying I was being “augmented” to a Regular type commission, and to do nothing unless I wished to opt out.

I believe NROTC grads receive Regular commissions these days, but I welcome an accurate post on that.
 
I think it goes back to our notion of "Citizen Soldiery" as opposed to the European model of a large professional Officer corps presiding over a large standing Military, which often times found itself integrally involved in domestic politics. Nonetheless, we still needed to be able to stand up an officer corps in case of war. In peace time this "corps" it was held in "reserve" and the officers went about their business of farming, banking, doctoring, etc.

Others know more than I, but I believe that ROTC was an important element of the new concept of Land Grant Colleges...maybe even as important as the Ag Extension element.
 
I am not sure of the history and would love to learn more.

To the best of my knowledge, the Reserve vs Regular commission changes from time to time. When I went through NROTC, I got a Regular commission (as did Academy grads) while OCS commissions were Reserve. There was absolutely no difference in the training of Marine Officers. The difference was that Reserve Officers had a contract with a set time obligation whereas I had a minimum obligation based on my NROTC scholarship but when I wanted to get out, I had to request release from Congress. Over time, Reserve Officers would go through an Augmentation board and either become Regular Commissioned Officers or leave the Corps.

Frankly, I am not sure how it is handled today. I can check with DS over the weekend and/or others can weigh in.
 
I learned about the Reserve vs Regular commission in great detail during the shrinking of the 600 ship Navy following the dissolution of the USSR.

I had been seeing Navy messages about the drawdown as the N1 (Admin & Manpower) on a 2-star surface ship Group staff. I had a ship CO, USNA grad, sitting in my office asking what could be done. His top three ranked LTs, all with Reserve commissions from either NROTC or OCS, who had all completed their initial obligations and planned to continue an AD career, had received letters thanking them and giving them their separation month. The CO noted it just killed him his worst-performing officers just happened to be USNA grads and he was stuck with them. This scenario was repeated multiple times that year - top performers being sloughed off.

I am eternally grateful to CAPT George F, one of my early COs, who told me to “just say yes” to converting from Reserve to Regular type commission. Apparently he had sent my name in for early augmentation consideration. He and his wife also introduced me to Dark & Stormies at social events at his house, but that’s a tale for another day.
 
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Capt MJ said:
My best guess on the “Reserve” is that for many years, NROTC grads earned a Reserve commission, though most still went AD. Reserve can refer to a type of commission OR type of duty, which has always caused confusion. Officers with a Reserve commission on AD have slightly different conditions attached to their commission, relating to obligated service and how they can be involuntarily separated. An example is that during a personnel drawdown, an AD officer with a Reserve commission, who has completed their service obligation years, can receive a letter mid-tour from Big Navy thanking them for their service and indicating to expect separation orders in X days. No recourse. AD officers with Regular commissions have more protections. But - they can also be directed to remain on active duty longer, even if they have completed their obligation and want to get out, in times of personnel shortages.

Anyone with a Reserve type commission on AD is either given an opportunity to convert to Regular or is automatically converted after a set number of years unless they opt out. As an OCS grad, I received a Reserve type commission instead of Regular. After 2 years on AD, I received a letter saying I was being “augmented” to a Regular type commission, and to do nothing unless I wished to opt out.

I believe NROTC grads receive Regular commissions these days, but I welcome an accurate post on that.
Click to expand...

+1

I have never served in the Navy, but I have read that at one time all NROTC grads were commissioned into the Naval Reserve (USNR.) That distinction was eliminated at some time during the last 20 years. Now, active duty upon commissioning is USN.

In WWII, almost everyone that enlisted (V6 program) or went through NROTC (V12) was commissioned "USNR." Only Academy grads were USN. My son's SNSI says that today there is virtually no distinction between NROTC commissions and "ring-knockers." (No offense intended.)
 
More along Army lines, but back in the 1800's and into World War I it was a way of training civilians to be military leaders should they ever need to be called on for war. They were held in reserve until needed. It was a pre-cursor to the formation of national guard. The "Reserve" just stuck with the program name.
 
See link below. It looks like in the early 2000's, around 2005,the Navy dropped the use of the "R" and all enlisted personnel and active duty became USN. Also, in 2005 the name was changed from United States Naval Reserve to United States Navy Reserve (I know, not much difference.) So, I think the OP made a good point about why is it still called N"R"OTC. Maybe NCOTC (Navy Commissioned Officer Training Corps) would be more appropriate. But ROTC is so well ingrained in our culture that it will probably stay that way.

Navy dropping the ‘R’ from the USNR - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.
www.ar15.com www.ar15.com
 
For Air Force, you contract to the IRR and then when commission, you commission and leave the IRR and enter AD, which is why it's called AFROTC.
 
Capt MJ said:
Would you provide a link to the source using “Reserve OTC” for Navy? Just so I know better how to address.

The Navy OCS in Newport, RI is a pre-comm program for candidates who have their college degrees, including enlisted personnel who have gotten their degree. OCs already know their service selection going in, such as SWO, Navy Air, etc. The classroom work is the same stuff USNA and NROTC mids get in terms of professional knowledge, very intense. Several hours in the classroom each day, drill/marching/parades, athletic periods, PRT testing, swim testing, tower jump into pool, room and uniform inspections, standing watch, doing security clearance paperwork, pre-comm physicals, lots of shots, leadership opportunities as a section becomes more senior.

OCS is very selective and cherry-picks candidates to round out new ensign goals for the year, as well as meet other recruiting goals. STEM majors from competitive universities are always desirable. Candidates have a higher age limit and can be married, though everyone lives in company area. There used to be Yard Patrol (YP) boats there, for shipboard training and actual maneuvering of a vessel. I don’t think they are there anymore. And oh yes, perhaps they still have the session in the damage control trainer, where you are in a space with water flooding in and you have to work as a team to plug holes and de-water the space. OCS go active duty to ships and training pipelines just as USNA and NROTC grads do.

I have always been a bit hazy about the path taken by a Reserve officer who comes in as a Reserve and continues as a Reserve after commissioning, and does not go AD. I would assume they attend some kind of OCS, but I realize most of the Reserve officers I worked with had started AD then separated and joined Navy Reserve.

Officer Training Command - OCS Mission - SP

www.public.navy.mil www.public.navy.mil
Click to expand...

Doesn’t ROTC stand for reserve OTC?
 
Capt MJ said:
Here’s an interesting bit of history on NROTC

NAVAL RESERVE OFFICERS TRAINING CORPS – Just another NUsites site

www.northwestern.edu www.northwestern.edu

My best guess on the “Reserve” is that for many years, NROTC grads earned a Reserve commission, though most still went AD. Reserve can refer to a type of commission OR type of duty, which has always caused confusion. Officers with a Reserve commission on AD have slightly different conditions attached to their commission, relating to obligated service and how they can be involuntarily separated. An example is that during a personnel drawdown, an AD officer with a Reserve commission, who has completed their service obligation years, can receive a letter mid-tour from Big Navy thanking them for their service and indicating to expect separation orders in X days. No recourse. AD officers with Regular commissions have more protections. But - they can also be directed to remain on active duty longer, even if they have completed their obligation and want to get out, in times of personnel shortages.

Anyone with a Reserve type commission on AD is either given an opportunity to convert to Regular or is automatically converted after a set number of years unless they opt out. As an OCS grad, I received a Reserve type commission instead of Regular. After 2 years on AD, I received a letter saying I was being “augmented” to a Regular type commission, and to do nothing unless I wished to opt out.

I believe NROTC grads receive Regular commissions these days, but I welcome an accurate post on that.
Click to expand...

So helpful. Thx
 
Capt MJ said:
I learned about the Reserve vs Regular commission in great detail during the shrinking of the 600 ship Navy following the dissolution of the USSR.
...
I am eternally grateful to CAPT George F, one of my early COs, who told me to “just say yes” to converting from Reserve to Regular type commission. Apparently he had sent my name in for early augmentation consideration. He and his wife also introduced me to Dark & Stormies at social events at his house, but that’s a tale for another day.
Click to expand...

100% on the Dark and Stormies
 
Back in the day, Midshipman at USNA were USN. ROTC Midshipman were USNR.

My memory says that at some point, USNA Midshipman also became USNR and I believe they were even Commissioned as USNR. (Is there anyone that can confirm this for me?)

I believe about 10-15 years ago it was again changed to USN.

The only thing I am positive about is the first paragraph. Not sure I helped! :biggrin:
 
It all goes back to pre-Civil War when we had a very small, professional, full-time standing army and navy. Almost all officers came from Military or Naval Academies. During war time, newly commissioned officers were considered temporary or reserve officers, many with temporary ranks during the Civil War. It wasn't until the 20th Century that ROTC and the peace time reserves started. However, the distinction between USA and USAR and USN and USNR was maintained. As mentioned above, in the early 2000's the Navy wanted to pursue the One Navy concept and eliminated the distinction. Part of the reason is that we now have a relatively large standing military compared with past US history when the USA almost completely disarmed between wars. Now, close to an equal number of officers are commissioned in the Navy each year via USNA and NROTC. And so, there is no longer the distinction between the "professional sailor" and the "reservist." They are all professionals. At least that is my understanding of the evolution.
 
I can only speak to naval history. I’ve done research on USNA grads and had to distinguish between USNR and USN. I believe the first instance of an USNR designation in Memorial Hall is LTjg John Melvin, USNA class of 1911. He was in the naval reserves after separating from the Navy and re-entered service in 1917. He was killed during convoy escort duty later that year. https://usnamemorialhall.org/index.php/JOHN_T._MELVIN,_LTJG,_USNR

I’m sorry I can’t add more to the history pre-WWI of the reserves than has been stated above. I can emphasize that the naval command’s decision to create what we now know as NROTC came directly from their experience in WWI: the timing is not coincidental. I am certain the devastating effects of the flu epidemic were also in mind: remember that young people at their peak physical state fell hard. The Northwestern piece CaptMJ cited above fits with everything I’ve encountered.

NROTC has continuously changed, and I’d note that not unlike USNA, it has done more the closer we get to today to support and commission those who enter the program. I wonder what if any impact this has had on the OCS program. We’re observing 3c NROTC MDNs being encouraged to go thru their warfare community’s selection process... somebody is doing a lot of planning and trying to get the body count right earlier and earlier.

Sorry about the diversion ... history always entices me off-topic!!! :)
 
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