Will underage drinking come back to bite me?

[aglages]

Has anyone heard of a Detachment Commander waiving ANY alcohol offenses during the last 2 years?

I simply responded with "Yes, multiple times."

You simply responded incorrectly with an answer that did not address my question (which you quoted in your response) and I was supposed to understand that you didn't know the difference between a Battalion Commander and a Detachment Commander?

What I do understand is that you are still young. Hopefully in the future instead of being embarrassed by your mistakes you'll either just acknowledge them or let them go instead trying to hide behind word games.

Good Luck in the Army!

 

[Pima]

cravius,

FWIW, it is a crime...the law is 21 yo. is the legal drinking age. Are you AF? Do you know the breakdown for SFT? 50% rec? Do you think that their personal opinion won't impact their chance? AFROTC is not AROTC...it is not 100% selection. NO selection= dis-enrollment. AFROTC grads go AD, no guard, no reserve!

Plus, OBTW this was not 10 miles over the limit...he was 2.0-2.5 TIMES over the 55/60 MPH !

Spade with spade. 0,19 Speed in this case was at least 100 mphs.

0.08 is VA limit...@ 2.5 times.

This was not oops I did 67 in a 55,,,this was I did 120 in a 55.

Laws are laws. ROTC or regular college kid...0.19 underage is against the law and a criminal act.

Play it anyway you want it is against the law to drink underage.

 

[Packer]

Laws are laws. ROTC or regular college kid...0.19 underage is against the law and a criminal act.

Play it anyway you want it is against the law to drink underage.

Doesn't change that 10 MPH over the speedlimit is also a crime.

The AF obviosly will look at them differently but that doesn't change the fact that both are crimes.

Anybody reported themselves for speeding lately?

 

[Jcleppe]

I meant that a tech major is more useful for the Air Force. I'm a non-tech major also and I know that selection for non-tech majors is more difficult for things such as SFT. I'm just suggesting that the Air Force would have an easier time letting someone go if they didn't have a critical major that they needed.

I highly doubt that any ROTC unit would allow one cadet that broke a rule stay, and disenroll the other who broke the same rule based on their Major. Standing in the unit may come play in a small way but not the Major. Even Military lawyers would have a field day with that one.

As far as your comment regarding non tech majors, it was the word useless that I was referring to.

 

[Aglahad]

I think that for commanders to decide if they're going to keep someone they have to look at how good of a cadet they are in the first place and also take into account their major. Someone that is an EE major and ranked really high will probably have a better chance of staying in the program than someone with a useless non-tech major that is ranked bottom of their class.

Probably not a good word choice on this forum. Do tech majors have on average better employment compensation/opportunities and pay over a non-tech major in the civilian world? Yeah probably, but that is not relevant to this thread and frankly offensive to many posters.

 

[cb7893]

I have been following this thread and I would recommend it to any parent or any aspirant to ROTC or an SA.

I am not very smart, so I always framed these tough decisions in the context of three axioms:

-A fish that keeps its mouth shut never gets caught.

-Answer every question as if sitting in a witness chair, under the threat of jail time for pergury.

-You cannot predict when those questions will be asked.

OP seems to have hit the creamy middle.

Is it wrong for OP to use the same lawyerly discernment in deciding what to do as the institution would use to throw him under the bus sometime down the road? I say NO.

I have seen enough in my life to know that public profession of honor, duty, love of country, love of wife, love of God doesn't mean anything when one's own a** is on the line. I am not talking about cadets/midishipmen, but rather flag officers. General Petreus never did or said anything until he was caught. His failure to his wife proved more significant than his failure to the National Security. If he hadn't failed one, he wouldn't have failed the other.

DS's failure, binge drinking, was to himself, not to a college ROTC program.

My DS called this week to report an incident which made DW and me cringe. I'll spare you the details, but DS's decision was to go straight to Cadre. Never gave it a second thought. No thought of consequences. No thought to payback. I like to think that he trusted the people who put trust in him. This, I would think, is critical to unit cohesion, which I hope is what the military is all about. DW and I didn't even hear about until a week later.

I can't and won't comment on the issues of security clearances, looking over one's shoulder, etc. I can say that any institution which would dump a kid who comes clean, on his own volition, out of loyalty to his unit/detachment/battalion is chickens***.

Anonymous, you need real friends. Don't be an idiot. Colleges are famous for not disclosing rape, suicide, and alcohol related deaths. At the worst, you'll die from binge drinking. At best, you will be someone's scapegoat who is trying save his/her own a**. As you catalogue your transgressions and failures you should put your choice of friends as high as your choice of recreational activities.

 

[Packer]

I have been following this thread and I would recommend it to any parent or any aspirant to ROTC or an SA.

I am not very smart, so I always framed these tough decisions in the context of three axioms:

-A fish that keeps its mouth shut never gets caught.

-Answer every question as if sitting in a witness chair, under the threat of jail time for pergury.

-You cannot predict when those questions will be asked.

OP seems to have hit the creamy middle.

Is it wrong for OP to use the same lawyerly discernment in deciding what to do as the institution would use to throw him under the bus sometime down the road? I say NO.

I have seen enough in my life to know that public profession of honor, duty, love of country, love of wife, love of God doesn't mean anything when one's own a** is on the line. I am not talking about cadets/midishipmen, but rather flag officers. General Petreus never did or said anything until he was caught. His failure to his wife proved more significant than his failure to the National Security. If he hadn't failed one, he wouldn't have failed the other.

DS's failure, binge drinking, was to himself, not to a college ROTC program.

My DS called this week to report an incident which made DW and me cringe. I'll spare you the details, but DS's decision was to go straight to Cadre. Never gave it a second thought. No thought of consequences. No thought to payback. I like to think that he trusted the people who put trust in him. This, I would think, is critical to unit cohesion, which I hope is what the military is all about. DW and I didn't even hear about until a week later.

I can't and won't comment on the issues of security clearances, looking over one's shoulder, etc. I can say that any institution which would dump a kid who comes clean, on his own volition, out of loyalty to his unit/detachment/battalion is chickens***.

Anonymous, you need real friends. Don't be an idiot. Colleges are famous for not disclosing rape, suicide, and alcohol related deaths. At the worst, you'll die from binge drinking. At best, you will be someone's scapegoat who is trying save his/her own a**. As you catalogue your transgressions and failures you should put your choice of friends as high as your choice of recreational activities.

Very good post and sound advice for the OP.

 

[kinnem]

I have to say I stand corrected. Given the letter of the law says that OP doesn't have to report it, I don't think he should. He can honestly say, if it ever comes up, that the regs did not require he report the incident. Therefore, he will not need to look over his shoulder or worry that others mention it. He'll still have to reveal it on the next DoDMERB and that may or may not have repercussions.

I also agree he needs to get a new set of friends and he might also work on saying "No". I'm not stupid enough to think that cadets and midshipmen don't drink underage, but the smart ones don't put themselves in this, or similar situations.

 

[cravius]

cravius,

FWIW, it is a crime...the law is 21 yo. is the legal drinking age. Are you AF? Do you know the breakdown for SFT? 50% rec? Do you think that their personal opinion won't impact their chance? AFROTC is not AROTC...it is not 100% selection. NO selection= dis-enrollment. AFROTC grads go AD, no guard, no reserve!

Plus, OBTW this was not 10 miles over the limit...he was 2.0-2.5 TIMES over the 55/60 MPH !

Spade with spade. 0,19 Speed in this case was at least 100 mphs.

0.08 is VA limit...@ 2.5 times.

This was not oops I did 67 in a 55,,,this was I did 120 in a 55.

Laws are laws. ROTC or regular college kid...0.19 underage is against the law and a criminal act.

Play it anyway you want it is against the law to drink underage.

There you go again with the idea that one has to be AF to comment on an AFROTC post. The fact of the matter is that this incident did not give him a competitive advantage over other cadets in selection, and if he was not required to report it I see no reason why he should feel like he did not earn SFT.

 

[USADadUSAFADaughter]

Sometimes these forums are great for splitting hairs. Is our goal to help Annonymous find the loophole, to jam Annonymous and give our own DS/DD a better chance, or to help Annonymous better his/her life?

There is an uncomfortable dilemma that helps us discern "degrees" of "guilt."

Consider a driver who binges and gets pulled over for a busted taillight. Turns out his BAC is .19. He gets arrested for OWI.

Another driver shares a bottle of wine with his wife and drinks 2-3 glasses from that bottle. On the way home from a nice dinner, he swerves to miss a dog, and in doing so hits a pedestrian crossing in a crosswalk. The pedestian dies, the dog lives, and his BAC is .08.

Who has committed the greater offense? Who is more guilty?

 

[goaliedad]

Sometimes these forums are great for splitting hairs. Is our goal to help Annonymous find the loophole, to jam Annonymous and give our own DS/DD a better chance, or to help Annonymous better his/her life?

There is an uncomfortable dilemma that helps us discern "degrees" of "guilt."

Consider a driver who binges and gets pulled over for a busted taillight. Turns out his BAC is .19. He gets arrested for OWI.

Another driver shares a bottle of wine with his wife and drinks 2-3 glasses from that bottle. On the way home from a nice dinner, he swerves to miss a dog, and in doing so hits a pedestrian crossing in a crosswalk. The pedestian dies, the dog lives, and his BAC is .08.

Who has committed the greater offense? Who is more guilty?

There are some here who would ask if the dog was in a cross walk... (These are the grammar nitpickers who would scowl at the imprecision of the sentence construction in your post).

And to some degree this forum is about all of the above. Some folks are about the exact facts and the processes about the specific situation. Others are here attempting to influence the decision making processes of the young folks. Others are yet are here to make sure that questionable folks get what is their due.

By and large though this place is generally helpful and friendly (minus the occasional sniping between certain personalities).

Annonymous has probably already tuned out after reading a few things he didn't want to hear. I would suggest that he was probably looking for reassurance that he wouldn't be the subject of an inquisition at his detachment. He got his inquisition and it was here.

 

[Luigi59]

Folks suggesting that the OP "turn themselves in" in order to meet some parental "always tell the truth " kind of guidance is in my opinon Really BAD advice akin to suggesting that someone has a duty to throw themselves on a grenade.

IMHO it's irresponsible to suggest that this kid report himself- suggesting that he do so isn't just some learning point, it's potential career suicide.

Prepare to faint, pigs are not flying, nor is it getting cold down below, but.....

...I agree with bruno 100%.

Advice telling him to self-incriminate, to report something that (from what I am reading it is a guarantee) will get him thrown out, is madness.

 

[kinnem]

Prepare to faint, pigs are not flying, nor is it getting cold down below, but.....

...I agree with bruno 100%.

Advice telling him to self-incriminate, to report something that (from what I am reading it is a guarantee) will get him thrown out, is madness.

 

[gojack]

Three years ago, when my son was visiting detachments, back when he was deciding on a school, I asked the PMS how he dealt with the usual college antics. He said, 'last year I had a cadet ask me if the alcohol related citation he had gotten over the weekend would get him kicked out of ROTC.' The PMS said he replied, 'well now that you told me it will.' He went on to explain that he had no special relationship with law enforcement, and made it clear that the self reporting cadet had been an explanatory cadet, and he wished that cadet could have kept his mouth shut.

 

[flieger83]

I just got off the phone with my local university PAS, who I asked the question as it was posed by the OP.

His comments were:

a. He's gone.
b. Okay, MAYBE not...but he will stand in front of me and answer questions like:

1. WHY? (You're here, you have such a bright future...)
2. Why are you above both USAF OI's and the law?
3. How can I now trust you to lead others when I clearly can't trust you to follow simple USAF OI's and State Laws?
4. Why should I recommend you to be commissioned when others are out there, NOT doing this, begging for your slot?​

He told me that, in his detachment, this high a BAC for an underage drinker would be VERY hard to justify keeping in the program. It wouldn't be impossible but there'd have to be a really good reason.

I then asked "Okay...if the ROTC cadet were legal to drink?" He said that's a little less problematic but still a problem due to the high BAC and the fact that "officials are involved." He said "hospitals, 911 calls, etc., are official in nature" and he was sure he'd hear about it eventually.

Last comment...and I agree, pig's aren't flying...Hades is still just a tad warm...

But I agree with Luigi 100% (and Bruno too!)
Advice telling him to self-incriminate, to report something that (from what I am reading it is a guarantee) will get him thrown out, is madness.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[Jcleppe]

I then asked "Okay...if the ROTC cadet were legal to drink?" He said that's a little less problematic but still a problem due to the high BAC and the fact that "officials are involved." He said "hospitals, 911 calls, etc., are official in nature" and he was sure he'd hear about it eventually.Last comment...and I agree, pig's aren't flying...Hades is still just a tad warm...

But I agree with Luigi 100% (and Bruno too!)
Advice telling him to self-incriminate, to report something that (from what I am reading it is a guarantee) will get him thrown out, is madness.

Just for clarification, Did the PAS say that because a Hospital was involved that he would eventually find out, did he say what might happen if they do find out later but the cadet never reported it. I am leaning toward agreeing with your position but was just curious about his statement that he would eventually find out about the involvement with the hospital.

From what you posted it makes it sound like whether he reports it or not there is a good chance the Det. will find out anyway, I was just wondering how that would play out.

Thanks

 

[DeskJockey]

I think it is important to remember that AFROTC contracts confer legal rights and obligations on both parties. We may think that it would be the right thing to do for a cadet in this situation to self-report this incident, and that it would be the right thing for the AF to reward his candor by giving him another chance. But the fact is that the cadet is not required to self-report under these particular circumstances, and the AF is not allowed to give him a pass if he does.

There is a good reason why the regulations stipulate that a cadet is only required to report a transgression in conjunction with an actual interaction with civil (police), school or military authorities. The alternative - that a cadet must self-report any incident of underage drinking, exceeding the speed limit, or other "misconduct" when he didn't get caught - is a standard that would be problematic in a monastery, much less an ROTC detachment. AFROTC cadets are not held to a higher standard than General Petraeus, who apparently did not self-report his affair with another man's wife, even though it was a UCMJ violation.

 

[Moosestache]

Risk vs reward... If he tells his Commander there is probably a 90% chance he is booted. If he doesn't tell his commander there is a 50% chance he finds out and if he does find out, a 95% chance he is booted. I made up those odds but you get the picture.

My son transferred schools after his freshman year and wasn't Rotc until he transferred. He received an underage possession citation at his old school, in PA it was basically a ticket you just paid. We debated putting it on his paperwork and ended up doing it, figuring, as others here did, they might find out, and it would be better if they knew.

His first meeting with the Colonel was not a pleasant meeting, and from how he describes it, quite lengthy and in depth, but in the end he was allowed into the program.

Looking back at that decision know, it did work out fine, however, I imagine the odds of them ever finding out about that infraction were very small, and the odds of him not being allowed in the program because of it were quite a bit higher than we had thought.

 

[-Bull-]

Aglages, nothing was incorrect. Stopped getting worked up. I hope you're not like this to your spouse or family. Wishful thinking...

 

[aglages]

Bull: bringing someone's wife and children into a forum disagreement is worse than childish. Try not to reflect too badly on the Army's selection process.