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Women at USMA
- Thread starter MoSwimmer66
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I will speak in general. In general Air Force, Coast Guard, Navy, Army have been the preference for women due to type of missions, locations and the working environment. I will not get into details why this is so since there maybe many opinions on this. You will notice that at each Academies, numbers back this up. USAFA and USNA have about 30% women, USCGA 33% or more, USMA 20%. Non Army services may have offered more non combat jobs historically. Now that women can serve in combat jobs more widely Army career has become more open to women. Other services also offer more technical jobs that you may apply to civilian jobs after military, so that can be another. Also Air Force, Navy, CG traditionally offered better facilities and locations or duty stations that are easier for families. We have family members who served in the Air Force Army and Navy and this is my general observation at the high level. My son is at the Naval Academy. If my daughter wishes to serve in the military, I would like her to consider the Air Force, Navy, and the Coast Guard for this very reasons.
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The niceness of the CG facilities might be overstated here...
It doesnt surprise me that women choose Navy and Air Force over the Army and the Marine both in terms of the acadamies and in enlisting or Rotc. I am not saying it is true, but to me it looks like the Navy and Air Force are more associated with technology. We associate the Navy with planes and ships and the Air Force with planes. We associate the Army and Marines with infanty and soldiering through the mud. I would have to imagine that for most women and men, being in a branch that isnt associate with brute strenght would more attractive. Brute strenght isnt the right word either but I hope you get my drift
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I know what you mean. Unless you are on stations covering major cities and region, CG Stations are usually small stations and sometimes outposts. Often in joint bases with the Air Force and Army National Guard. But they are normally located near coastal cities and towns so you have more access to bigger cities and ports if that’s what you like. Your deployments are shorter and often you are tied to home ports that will allow you to have more family time close to home. So yes it helps raising a family, balance duty station with your spouse, and have a career you can enjoy.
another13mom
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My wording may have been confusing. Sorry for that. And this was for class of 2017 - 936 total graduates out of 1200 admitted, 151 women of the 188 admitted (originally 194 admitted but 6 were not able to start with class for whatever reason). Overall, I think the much larger percentages of women admitted starting with the Class of 2018 favorably impacted the experience of young women at USMA and in turn, fewer will leave. As I said, overall my daughter had a very positive time as a cadet, but she'd be the first to say, it's not for everyone, and there are some who decide it's a lot less stressful and a whole lot easier to have a normal college experience somewhere else.
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CG stations are often on the parts of Navy bases people don’t want to drive to.
GoArmy2022
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I am a female Cadet who is fresh through Beast, so I think I might be able to offer some insight regarding what that was like for us ladies in this generation.
I personally love West Point so far. Despite being female, I think I fit right in. I haven’t had any issues with being degraded because I’m female—nobody here cares whether you’re female or not as long as you put in the same work as the men.
And that last statement in the above paragraph is the same thing an infantry officer told me when I went on my overnight visit during branch week last year. If the whole platoon can shoulder the same task, who cares whether the anatomy of the shoulder indicates a female or a male?
However, Beast was harder for some of the females. When a male comes physically unprepared versus a female who is also unprepared, it is still easier for the male to ruck up a giant firebreak with 60 extra pounds on his body. And that’s the biggest issue I’ve seen.
Not females, but females who came in without preparing, struggled the most during my Beast. Not only did they just have a difficult time doing some of the tasks, but they were also injured way more often because their bodies weren’t used to exercise.
So, if you want to be a West Point woman, take my advice and prepare. If you can do what a man here does then it really won’t matter what’s under your clothes. Everyone looks the same in the uniform here.
I personally love West Point so far. Despite being female, I think I fit right in. I haven’t had any issues with being degraded because I’m female—nobody here cares whether you’re female or not as long as you put in the same work as the men.
And that last statement in the above paragraph is the same thing an infantry officer told me when I went on my overnight visit during branch week last year. If the whole platoon can shoulder the same task, who cares whether the anatomy of the shoulder indicates a female or a male?
However, Beast was harder for some of the females. When a male comes physically unprepared versus a female who is also unprepared, it is still easier for the male to ruck up a giant firebreak with 60 extra pounds on his body. And that’s the biggest issue I’ve seen.
Not females, but females who came in without preparing, struggled the most during my Beast. Not only did they just have a difficult time doing some of the tasks, but they were also injured way more often because their bodies weren’t used to exercise.
So, if you want to be a West Point woman, take my advice and prepare. If you can do what a man here does then it really won’t matter what’s under your clothes. Everyone looks the same in the uniform here.
As others have pointed out the statistics you gave are not correct. The women take 24% of the class this year that’s just a smidge under 1 in 4 females. I think you will see that number continue to rise as with the other academies.
My dd is a plebe and is exactly where she wants to be, usma has more choices for majors than Air Force or Navy. And they don’t get issued a cart to drag their stuff around on RDay. If she does decide to go, make sure she is physical fit because Beast is also longer and more physical than Navy or Air Force.
Interesting statistic...only 2% of USMA graduates leave West Point with the same gf/bf that they start with on RDay. Many get Dear John letters before Beast summer is over. It would be very hard with the demands of any academy to continue a long distance relationship. They have all they can handle and a relationship during plebe year would make it that much more daunting.
My DD is applying to the USMA. She's dating this really nice boy. We like him a lot. His family likes my DD. Really popular with the girls (apparently, he's good-looking). He's won the award at their HS given to the student who most exemplifies Catholic values, etc... since freshman year. Starting RB for the football team. State track finalist in the 200m and 4x100m. All-American type of guy. He's probably going to college near here so there will be some distance between them if my DD has the privilege of getting an appointment to any of the SAs.
My DD and I were going on one our long runs one day and I talked her about relationships because I'm trying to manage her expectations. My concern is if this boy breaks up with her, then how is she going to handle it with all the other things going on. I'm hoping she'll be so busy the first year that the break-up will be the last thing on her mind. I also told her something along the lines of... look sweatheart... the ratio of boys to girls is like 75:25. You shouldn't have any problem getting a boy to like you at the schools you're thinking of going, but I'd really prefer you concentrate on the books.
I also had her read Tough as Nails: One Woman's Journey Through West Point by Gail O'Sullivan Dwyer. The author was a member of the 2nd class of females that went through West Point. She talks about relationships - what's allowed, what's not allowed, when and where things are allowed, etc... The author, as the title suggests, talks about what she and her fellow females faced at West Point - the good, the bad, and the ugly. Granted, the ratio is better now than it was in the late 70s, but the lessons are similar. My DD loved the book.
So my thoughts are really not much. Maybe I'm not thinking about this as deep as maybe I should? I'm also in the military, so I suppose that could also be a reason why I haven't thought much about my DD going to a school where the gender ratio is imbalanced. My "norm" is gender ratio imbalanced. At airborne school, many, many more males than females. Same at air assault school. Same at SERE and SOF community (really imbalanced).
Sure, but how many civilians college students graduate still dating their high school girlfriend. I would imagine it isnt very high eitherInteresting statistic...only 2% of USMA graduates leave West Point with the same gf/bf that they start with on RDay. Many get Dear John letters before Beast summer is over. It would be very hard with the demands of any academy to continue a long distance relationship. They have all they can handle and a relationship during plebe year would make it that much more daunting.
My DD is applying to the USMA. She's dating this really nice boy. We like him a lot. His family likes my DD. Really popular with the girls (apparently, he's good-looking). He's won the award at their HS given to the student who most exemplifies Catholic values, etc... since freshman year. Starting RB for the football team. State track finalist in the 200m and 4x100m. All-American type of guy. He's probably going to college near here so there will be some distance between them if my DD has the privilege of getting an appointment to any of the SAs.
My DD and I were going on one our long runs one day and I talked her about relationships because I'm trying to manage her expectations. My concern is if this boy breaks up with her, then how is she going to handle it with all the other things going on. I'm hoping she'll be so busy the first year that the break-up will be the last thing on her mind. I also told her something along the lines of... look sweatheart... the ratio of boys to girls is like 75:25. You shouldn't have any problem getting a boy to like you at the schools you're thinking of going, but I'd really prefer you concentrate on the books.
I also had her read Tough as Nails: One Woman's Journey Through West Point by Gail O'Sullivan Dwyer. The author was a member of the 2nd class of females that went through West Point. She talks about relationships - what's allowed, what's not allowed, when and where things are allowed, etc... The author, as the title suggests, talks about what she and her fellow females faced at West Point - the good, the bad, and the ugly. Granted, the ratio is better now than it was in the late 70s, but the lessons are similar. My DD loved the book.
So my thoughts are really not much. Maybe I'm not thinking about this as deep as maybe I should? I'm also in the military, so I suppose that could also be a reason why I haven't thought much about my DD going to a school where the gender ratio is imbalanced. My "norm" is gender ratio imbalanced. At airborne school, many, many more males than females. Same at air assault school. Same at SERE and SOF community (really imbalanced).
Sure, but how many civilians college students graduate still dating their high school girlfriend. I would imagine it isnt very high eitherInteresting statistic...only 2% of USMA graduates leave West Point with the same gf/bf that they start with on RDay. Many get Dear John letters before Beast summer is over. It would be very hard with the demands of any academy to continue a long distance relationship. They have all they can handle and a relationship during plebe year would make it that much more daunting.
My DD is applying to the USMA. She's dating this really nice boy. We like him a lot. His family likes my DD. Really popular with the girls (apparently, he's good-looking). He's won the award at their HS given to the student who most exemplifies Catholic values, etc... since freshman year. Starting RB for the football team. State track finalist in the 200m and 4x100m. All-American type of guy. He's probably going to college near here so there will be some distance between them if my DD has the privilege of getting an appointment to any of the SAs.
My DD and I were going on one our long runs one day and I talked her about relationships because I'm trying to manage her expectations. My concern is if this boy breaks up with her, then how is she going to handle it with all the other things going on. I'm hoping she'll be so busy the first year that the break-up will be the last thing on her mind. I also told her something along the lines of... look sweatheart... the ratio of boys to girls is like 75:25. You shouldn't have any problem getting a boy to like you at the schools you're thinking of going, but I'd really prefer you concentrate on the books.
I also had her read Tough as Nails: One Woman's Journey Through West Point by Gail O'Sullivan Dwyer. The author was a member of the 2nd class of females that went through West Point. She talks about relationships - what's allowed, what's not allowed, when and where things are allowed, etc... The author, as the title suggests, talks about what she and her fellow females faced at West Point - the good, the bad, and the ugly. Granted, the ratio is better now than it was in the late 70s, but the lessons are similar. My DD loved the book.
So my thoughts are really not much. Maybe I'm not thinking about this as deep as maybe I should? I'm also in the military, so I suppose that could also be a reason why I haven't thought much about my DD going to a school where the gender ratio is imbalanced. My "norm" is gender ratio imbalanced. At airborne school, many, many more males than females. Same at air assault school. Same at SERE and SOF community (really imbalanced).
I married my high school sweetheart and so did one of my daughters...good Point though I wonder what the percentage is. We went to the same college and got married while in grad school.
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@DDmom, my understanding is that USNA uses the carts and USMA doesn’t because Mids are “more brains than brawn” while Cadets are “more brawn than brains.” Which I’m told is also the reason why West Point has so many more majors — because many Cadets aren’t capable of handling the STEM-heavy curriculum and must be offered much simpler academic fare. But at least they can handle Beast, where they’re not subjected to the “40-year swim.” I don’t believe Beast is longer than Plebe Summer — it probably just feels that way because of the dreariness of nonstop rucking. Cheers nonetheless!
USMADad2022
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@MoSwimmer66: Since you were asking for thoughts regarding women at West Point, I am more than happy to share those of my DD who just began her Plebe year. She, like most who actually earn an appointment, was qualified academically to complete any type of STEM/non-STEM course of study at any of the academies. She was recruited by all three and visted all. At Air Force she said the guide focused my DD’s attention on the amazing aircraft that have served our country so well. At the Naval Academy she was apparently proudly shown a significant sculpture of a submarine that has been dedicated to sailors lost at sea. Constructing and managing those types of aerial and naval assets certainly requires STEM aptitude.
But when she visited West Point what really impressed my DD was that her guide, instead of pointing out statues of THINGS, pointed out statues of PEOPLE - leaders like Washington, MacArthur and Eisenhower. As she tried to decide which academy she wanted to go to, knowing all of them would have a major she would like, it always came back to that. The feeling that she felt more aligned to and wanted to serve West Point’s purpose as the premier leadership institution in the world.
Her Mom and I did not try to steer her one way or the other. We felt all of the academies serve a great purpose and do a phenomenal job. We know many, many people who have gone to each of them, and we respect their choices. This was 100% my DD’s decision, and so far as one of the 24.5% of the women there, she is very, very happy at West Point. During Beast she had great male squad leaders during both 3 week sessions, and she has made so many new friends with the girls in her company, barracks and classes. My takeaway on this is that these are very individual decisions. Starting her sophomore year of high school our DD visited 10 college campuses, including the service academies. She really did her homework and tried to make the right decision.
To her, when she went for a second visit and walked the grounds of that amazingly gorgeous campus, West Point just felt like home, where she fit in and belonged. As a student, and as a female, no other campus gave her that feeling. Good luck!
But when she visited West Point what really impressed my DD was that her guide, instead of pointing out statues of THINGS, pointed out statues of PEOPLE - leaders like Washington, MacArthur and Eisenhower. As she tried to decide which academy she wanted to go to, knowing all of them would have a major she would like, it always came back to that. The feeling that she felt more aligned to and wanted to serve West Point’s purpose as the premier leadership institution in the world.
Her Mom and I did not try to steer her one way or the other. We felt all of the academies serve a great purpose and do a phenomenal job. We know many, many people who have gone to each of them, and we respect their choices. This was 100% my DD’s decision, and so far as one of the 24.5% of the women there, she is very, very happy at West Point. During Beast she had great male squad leaders during both 3 week sessions, and she has made so many new friends with the girls in her company, barracks and classes. My takeaway on this is that these are very individual decisions. Starting her sophomore year of high school our DD visited 10 college campuses, including the service academies. She really did her homework and tried to make the right decision.
To her, when she went for a second visit and walked the grounds of that amazingly gorgeous campus, West Point just felt like home, where she fit in and belonged. As a student, and as a female, no other campus gave her that feeling. Good luck!
1) Beast is not longer than Plebe summer, both are around 6 or 7 weeks. In fact, Plebe summer was about six days longer than Beast was this year. R-day was on July 2, I-day was on June 28. Hell-O night was on the 16th of August, and March Back at USMA was the 13th of August.
2) This is not even close to being accurate. I understand that it's funny to make jokes about the carts. The memes are great, and I'm not going to hear the end of them from my friends that went to West Point. To believe that their use for one and only one evolution on one and only one day of the 6 week Plebe Summer was anything more than a logistical decision made to expedite the flow of people on I-Day is completely ludicrous. I could give the full spiel behind the carts the short version is that due to construction over the past two years the Academy had to change the way that the plebes were moved from Alumni to Bancroft, and the carts were an attempt to expedite what was already going to be a significantly less efficient evolution compared to previous years.
3) In regards to academics, I have a hard time believing that the reason that USMA has more majors is because Cadets are too stupid to handle STEM curriculum. The reason they have more majors is that there is less of an institutional need to focus on STEM subjects. USNA is mandated to ensure that 65% or more of each graduating class holds a STEM related degree. There's no sense in offering more humanities majors if there is a finite number of Midshipmen that will be allowed to avail themselves of those majors. At the end of the day, both institutions grant Bachelors of Science with a strong foundation in math, science and engineering.
2) This is not even close to being accurate. I understand that it's funny to make jokes about the carts. The memes are great, and I'm not going to hear the end of them from my friends that went to West Point. To believe that their use for one and only one evolution on one and only one day of the 6 week Plebe Summer was anything more than a logistical decision made to expedite the flow of people on I-Day is completely ludicrous. I could give the full spiel behind the carts the short version is that due to construction over the past two years the Academy had to change the way that the plebes were moved from Alumni to Bancroft, and the carts were an attempt to expedite what was already going to be a significantly less efficient evolution compared to previous years.
3) In regards to academics, I have a hard time believing that the reason that USMA has more majors is because Cadets are too stupid to handle STEM curriculum. The reason they have more majors is that there is less of an institutional need to focus on STEM subjects. USNA is mandated to ensure that 65% or more of each graduating class holds a STEM related degree. There's no sense in offering more humanities majors if there is a finite number of Midshipmen that will be allowed to avail themselves of those majors. At the end of the day, both institutions grant Bachelors of Science with a strong foundation in math, science and engineering.
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@MidCakePa , If you were joking, I apologize for taking your post too seriously. I have been on these forums for several years and sometimes I read serious comments from parents that are remarkably off-base and uninformed, and I read your post as one of those. Sometimes it's hard to glean sarcasm out of text.
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Walman888
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Well put. My DD felt precisely the same. The history, the heritage, the reputation. Second to none was her goal through the entire process.