Women on subs now in effect as of 1 May 10

[aglages]

BTW, when will Selective Service start making females register for the draft and threaten them with all the laws that go with that?

First, I would have no problem with females being required to register.

Second, since draft registration was enacted, 0 males have been drafted and I would be surprised if any males have been prosecuted for failing to register.

I'm not sure this response addresses the question(s) Maximus asked in his post. When do you think there will be equality in the draft registration laws?
While there may not have been any peace time prosecutions, if you don't register you become ineligible for federal student aid, federal job training or civil service employment. If both sexes can serve in the military, why are females not subject to the same draft registration laws and penalties?

 

[AF6872]

^^^^ You are correct sir. Males are penalized for not registering (Re: Federal student aid et aliae) but females of the same age have no such obligation or penalty.

 

[usna1985]

Well, if you know you're not going to be drafted (and I'd bet the chances of that are between 0% and 0%), there's no reason not to comply w/the law. Failure to pay child support or pay back your student loans can also impact your ability to hold a federal job. Life's tough.

And I agree w/you that registration should be required of males and females. While combat soldiers are important, women can and do serve in many combat roles. Also, support services are equally important and women can do that as well.

 

[aglages]

However, the purpose of registering is to provide the country with combat soldiers who are needed quickly in a state of emergency. Since female are disallowed from combat, it is pointless to have them register.

Women can't fly fighter/bomber planes? Submarines? Nursing? There are a huge number of military jobs that would free up males for the few jobs that women still can't perform. Assuming of course that a war large enough to warrant using a draft will be fought with large numbers of combat arms troops and not mostly via missiles and planes.

 

[aglages]

Well, if you know you're not going to be drafted (and I'd bet the chances of that are between 0% and 0%), there's no reason not to comply w/the law.

I have not come close to suggesting that ANYONE should not comply with the law. I asked specifically when a law that applies to a specific sex would (like the military) be changed in recognition that both sexes are able to defend their country.

Failure to pay child support..

Inequality of child support / custody laws are an entirely different issue, and one that IMHO should not be inserted in this discussion.

..or pay back your student loans can also impact your ability to hold a federal job.

At least the student loan laws affect both sexes equally.

 

[AF6872]

usna1985
I think you mean "since draft was discontinued" and then the lottery system was instituted and then dropped. When was registration enacted and compulsory for all males and when was it discontinued? It has never been discontinued. As the sage might say "You Can Look It Up". They were drafting people in the 60's and I didn't see any women standing with me in my draft board or during my physical. Actually had a "Gunny" come into our room and ask all enlistees (luckily me) stand to one side and all draftees stand to the other. He then went down the line and picked out about six guys over six feet tall and said "come with me". One guy said "I was drafted into the Army". Gunny replied "you were drafted son, but no one said where you were going". Next letter to home PO Paris Island. First time they had drafted Marines since WW II.

 

[usna1985]

Child support payments affect both genders as well. Women can be required to pay support. Depends on who (if either party) is granted primary custody.

The point I was making is that a variety of "failures" can land you on lists that limit your opportunities with the federal government. Child support and student loans are among them. There are others.

My personal view is that the gov't should DC draft registration given that no one really thinks there will be a draft. However, that's not my call.

 

[usna1985]

I was focusing on the current requirement for SSS registration . . . not referring to the 1960s when individuals were actually drafted. Obviously, women weren't drafted at that time. It was almost 50 yrs ago . . . things have changed.

usna1985
I think you mean "since draft was discontinued" and then the lottery system was instituted and then dropped. When was registration enacted and compulsory for all males and when was it discontinued? As the sage might say "You Can Look It Up". They were drafting people in the 60's and I didn't see any women standing with me in my draft board or during my physical. Actually had a "Gunny" come into our room and ask all enlistees (luckily me) stand to one side and all draftees stand to the other. He then went down the line and picked out about six guys over six feet tall and said "come with me". One guy said "I was drafted into the Army". Gunny replied "you were drafted son, but no one said where you were going". Next letter to home PO Paris Island. First time they had drafted Marines since WW II.

 

[aglages]

Child support payments affect both genders as well. Women can be required to pay support. Depends on who (if either party) is granted primary custody.

"As well" does not mean equally. Who gets custody is also IMHO not determined by a fair or equal system. Again, I think this subject would be better discussed elsewhere and should not serve as an example in this discussion.

 

[AF6872]

usna1985

But all Males are required to register and Females are not. As per Selective Service Act (SSA) of 1917. As of the end of 2008 14 million men were on file with the Selective Service Administration and those males over 18 not registering are subject to federal penalties but there are no women registered or subject to any penalty if they do not register (last statistics available). The SSA hasn't changed that much although the military has. Are you implying that I am old. Loved the 60's

 

[vampsoul]

I, as a female, was dismayed when I had no number to fill out on my sec. clearance form for the selective service number box. All 18+ should be registered.

 

[Maximus]

First, I would have no problem with females being required to register.

Second, since draft registration was enacted, 0 males have been drafted and I would be surprised if any males have been prosecuted for failing to register.

Right but, how many have been denied student loans or drivers licences for not registering? The US Government has spent millions in PSA's describing what will happen if youn (boys 18-20 something) don't register.

 

[Maximus]

So, it's the enlisted female sailors who can't be trusted?

Selective Service - personally I don't have a problem with females registering.

No, men too, and mostly so. Try another angle.

 

[Maximus]

I'm not sure this response addresses the question(s) Maximus asked in his post. When do you think there will be equality in the draft registration laws?
While there may not have been any peace time prosecutions, if you don't register you become ineligible for federal student aid, federal job training or civil service employment. If both sexes can serve in the military, why are females not subject to the same draft registration laws and penalties?

She knew that, it's what I was describing in the other post, a discussion ender comment. Won't work here though

 

[Maximus]

Well, if you know you're not going to be drafted (and I'd bet the chances of that are between 0% and 0%), there's no reason not to comply w/the law. Failure to pay child support or pay back your student loans can also impact your ability to hold a federal job. Life's tough.

And I agree w/you that registration should be required of males and females. While combat soldiers are important, women can and do serve in many combat roles. Also, support services are equally important and women can do that as well.

Yet you still posted "rolleyes" lol OK, we know where you're coming from

 

[Maximus]

I was focusing on the current requirement for SSS registration . . . not referring to the 1960s when individuals were actually drafted. Obviously, women weren't drafted at that time. It was almost 50 yrs ago . . . things have changed.

Why not? What was different? Were evil men plotting then...lol

 

[Maximus]

Woman will be on subs….what exactly is the problem. It really does not matter how much it will cost or what discomfort it will cause certain members of the male gender. It is going to happen.

I look back upon a meeting I sat in on a few months ago and we discussed what steps we as a command would take to address fraternization between members of the opposite sex in a combat zone. We had a plan of action I tell you. In my time with that command would any of you want to guess how many times we had to implement that plan…….ZERO! Good leadership, good discipline made it so that we never had a problem. Everybody in my command knew we had a job to do and that if we did not do our job effectively people would die. It was as simple as that.

Of course it did not hurt the fact that everybody was bone tired from the 16-20 hour days-seven days a week too. Now we can sit here and say “What if” all we want while the real people who will be implementing this policy is probably already doing their job and making plans to both accommodate and address any issues that may arise. I would also bet that they are relying on both experience, education and training from previous integration issues our Navy has faced.

BTW USNA85- you are absolutely correct when you say that if a person wants to cheat they will do so. They don’t need a ship or a boat to have the opportunity. That goes for both sexes as well.

I have no problems with women on sub, I think they should put women on subs, enlisted women. Why allow privileged Academy grads on? Regular enlistted women can't be trusted? Or is it the enlisted men that might cause a problem?

Please, let's keep a standard.

 

[Zaphod]

First the vote and now THIS. When will it ever end?

Hell!

They were permitted to leave the kitchens to protest for that!

Where was the outrage?

 

[Pima]

It is off topic to throw in the SS issue, but I agree, why shouldn't women be required? As I have stated multiple times, when we finally remove the illusion through SS, and PT requirements, we can make the playing field even. It would create more harmony within the service. There will be no "Well, b/c you are a woman, you get a free pass!"

We have a DD, who is 18, it would be no sweat off my back if she rad to register. Afterall, who really believes a Draft will ever return? To me, it is a BS argument when people bring up the Draft.

Whether, I believe they should serve or not, is a non-factor because it is not my family or myself directly affected. I think any woman who volunteers for this position, is going to walk in with a realistic view that people on the sub won't be ready to embrace her. She is going to have it just as hard as people like Jeannie Flynn(1st female fighter pilot in the AF), Nichole Malachowski (1st female Thunderbird) and many other female firsts in the military. I only hope she does not take a page from Shannon Faulkner. That being said, we need to accept the military's decision and get behind these women, regardless if we agree with the decision or not. It is going to happen, and if you do not throw support behind them, in a convoluted way you are asking for our military members turmoil while trying to fulfill their mission. Nothing good comes from turmoil...NOTHING!

I will also state, that it will be yrs later these women will also feel the injustices of being the 1st. No matter how proficient they are, people will say they got their rank and positions because they had 2 XX's instead of an XY. These women will become the poster children of the Navy for sometime, at least if the media follows the same path as they did with Jeannie. Jeannie is an excellent pilot, but it still comes up that she got certain positions because the AF could not let her fail. Sour grapes, maybe, but my heart always felt for her because no matter what she always was criticized because she was the 1st. Bad flight ...told you so! Promotion BPZ...because she was the 1st Female Fighter. Nobody gave her the same respect/opinion if she was just one of the guys...it always came down to her sex.

 

[Pima]

I agree she was a wimp. My point is she did so much damage to women. C'mon, she fights for that spot for a yr. Causes turmoil, and lawsuits, changes the system to only show up and bust week one.

Every woman I know despises her because she made it worse. We all ask the same thing, you fight so hard for this, why weren't you working out everyday to make sure you were physically fit? Why? She knew that their version of BCT was not going to be a cake walk. This was her time to tell the guys eat dirt! Instead what did she do? She gained weight and showed up unfit. All you could hear, was "You see, women can't make it". She made it harder for the next set of women. Yes, she opened the door, but she also closed it too. As a woman, I am embarrassed by her...and if anyone defends her using her own defense of stress, I would say that is BS. The military is stressful.

As I stated by using Jeannie and Fifi, as examples, there are many women who are more than qualified, but it only takes one Shannon to destroy the strides made through other frontier women.

Bullet was at FTU when women were only allowed to be FAIPS, no fighters. I recall the announcement of Jeannie, and the shock that went through the class. Young Lts were opposed, gave the typical defenses, some I still agree with. However, in his FTU class, there were 3 FAIPS, from 3 different bases. They all agreed that the female FAIPS they knew were the best FAIPS ever. I recall asking why they believed that, they all had the same answer. As a woman, they had to prove 2x as hard that they deserved to be there, they never took anything for granted. People need to understand if the USN has selected properly, these women know the weight they are carrying on their shoulders. They know that their success or failure will impact future female generations. I believe they carry that burden more than they carry the burden of their own success.