Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

[afmom2020]

I'm relatively new to the forums and my DD just entered the Prep. She said that it wasn't that bad and when we talked further I found out that her cadre was the one to order her step out of the parade and sit in a van to ensure that she wouldn't aggravate her injury after DD tried to stay with her squadron. So our experience has been a good one. Having said that, I'm not sure about some of the points in this thread.

There seems to be an agreement that any problem should stay in the wing and it's how it's always done. It also seems surprising that people know. However how it's always done has come with allegations of cheating and sexual harassment. How it was always done isn't always for the best.

Gen. Johnson has made transparency a part of USAFA's mission. At every meeting we had with ALO, admission counselors and USAFA representatives, they brought up the problems the academy had faced in the past and stressed that the academy was trying to become more open to public scrutiny. With this push from the top to make things more transparent, it shouldn't be surprising that people know and it should come even as less of a surprise that people want to know how things are handled.

If this were a civilian university, there would be very clear guidelines. There would be ways to address the issues both at an university level and on a judicial level.

If these were enlisted airmen, they too would have clear guidelines on how to address problems. There are rules and procedures, there is JAG, there are ways to solve the problems.

In both of the situations above, the students/enlisted airmen could speak to their parents/spouses/SO/lawyers. Why should the cadets be any different?

Again, DD has only had nice things to say about her cadre and I understand that there are people who will quit for many reasons, like the girl who decided that military life wasn't for her three hours after arriving at the Prep. I'm not questioning any of that. I'm wondering why so many people on the forum seem against a clear set of rules about a) what's allowed during BCT and b) how and when 4cc and other cadets to make formal complaints against cadre who is not behaving properly. I would think that such clarity would only benefit the academy.

 

[MombaBomba]

However, he wouldn't share anything about problems with cadre because he knew that we expected him to deal with things on his own.

I think that is where the whole "know your kid" comes in. If mine vents (very rarely), it isn't because he is looking for mom & dad to rush in on a white horse and save the day. It is because it has been a long day, he is pissed off and in a bad mood. He isn't looking for answers or solutions. He is looking to get it off his chest. If I ever tried to "ride in", he would "smack me upside the head" and stop communicating with me. Having said that, as I have no military or USAFA background to draw from, when he does vent, I don't always know if this is something serious or just one of those things. I get that he has to handle things himself, and if I didn't remember that, he is sure to remind me. But at the same time, as a parent, I am concerned since he is my child. I will not try to live his life for him, but I will not stop caring about him and what happens to him just because he is now over 18.

I know if I had a USAFA or military background, I probably would not be using social media or the internet in order to understand what is going on so much. This isn't about control. I am one of those people who really try to understand. I am intensely curious by nature. I have always had an issue with "just because I say so". I look to understand the why. Who, how, where, when and what usually don't cut it for me. This is really about my adventure in learning, growing and understanding as a parent. I want to be the best supportive parent I can possibly be. By supportive, I don't mean doing it for them. I mean knowing when to say "you got this" vs. "suck it up" vs. "maybe you want to follow up with someone higher up who can advise you".

I think there are a lot of parents out there like me. They want to understand and they are concerned. Platitudes don't cut it with us, only explanations do.

 

[afmom2020]

I think that is where the whole "know your kid" comes in. If mine vents (very rarely), it isn't because he is looking for mom & dad to rush in on a white horse and save the day. It is because it has been a long day, he is pissed off and in a bad mood. He isn't looking for answers or solutions. He is looking to get it off his chest. If I ever tried to "ride in", he would "smack me upside the head" and stop communicating with me. Having said that, as I have no military or USAFA background to draw from, when he does vent, I don't always know if this is something serious or just one of those things. I get that he has to handle things himself, and if I didn't remember that, he is sure to remind me. But at the same time, as a parent, I am concerned since he is my child. I will not try to live his life for him, but I will not stop caring about him and what happens to him just because he is now over 18.

I know if I had a USAFA or military background, I probably would not be using social media or the internet in order to understand what is going on so much. This isn't about control. I am one of those people who really try to understand. I am intensely curious by nature. I have always had an issue with "just because I say so". I look to understand the why. Who, how, where, when and what usually don't cut it for me. This is really about my adventure in learning, growing and understanding as a parent. I want to be the best supportive parent I can possibly be. By supportive, I don't mean doing it for them. I mean knowing when to say "you got this" vs. "suck it up" vs. "maybe you want to follow up with someone higher up who can advise you".

I think there are a lot of parents out there like me. They want to understand and they are concerned. Platitudes don't cut it with us, only explanations do.

Very well said. My daughter tells me things but she'd be horrified if I tried to intervene. On the other hand, if USAFA promotes itself as a school interested in my child's well-being and in a clear line of communication with parents then I want an explanation when things go wrong with the full understanding that sometimes things go wrong and there was no way to stop them beforehand.

 

[skismuggs]

I find it amazing that parents even know about what is going on in the squadrons. I would never have expected my son to tell me details like this in any communication. And guess what....he made it through USAFA just fine and is successful at his job, which he describes as "blowing up people and their stuff". That is the reality of the career path that they have chosen, and to worry about whether they got their feelings hurt by the cadre or didn't get enough sleep before class is ridiculous.

Stealth_81

YIK-YAK: the source of everything true and untrue at USAFA.

 

[wannafly18]

Whatever happened in Squad 22 last night is probably not worth a Congressional inquiry. Rather, it is an experience that will be happily reminisced about at many a class reunion to come. It’s all part of the experience, both the good and the bad. THEIR experience.

I do not think the parents in question were calling for a congressional inquiry. They were pointing out if other upper level cadets/cadre see this as wrong, what can the cadre do about it and why don't they do something? It is a very good question. What is the structure to report abuse of power in the academies? What is considered an abuse of power? Was this really abusive or just what others consider a "really rotten thing to do?" There is a code of conduct for a reason. I suspect there have been instances of inappropriate use of power in the past, and that is why some of those regulations/codes/rules are in place. I am NOT saying or even suggesting that abuse of power is frequent, only that it can happen. Young human beings are involved after all. And to be fair, those acting in an abusive way (they are still young and learning) may not even realize it can be considered abusive or crossing the line or that it could result in physical injury.

One of the things we try to do is teach our kids how to make lemonade from lemons. We tell them "learn from the crappy experience and use it to become a better leader yourself." But where is the line between "crappy" but you can learn from it and "abusive" where you can be injured by it? Some things deserve a slap on the wrist while others require a bit more punishment.

Many non-military parents, including myself, come into this with an expected level of professionalism/direction/whatever word you want to put here that doesn't really exist. Our expectations can exceed what is realistic. It can be much higher because we made assumptions. I had not realized how much of leadership development was unstructured, learn as you go type thing. I expected a greater level of involvement and "hands on" from PP than there really is. This doesn't mean to imply PP's way isn't better or right. It is just means that I have to reconcile my expectations with reality. Part of that reconciliation process include asking why, venting, sharing and researching!

Also, I don't ever recall happily reminiscing about an abusive experience in my past. People may eventually happily reminisce about a difficult situation they over came, shared or dealt with, but usually, they don't happily reminisce about an abusive situation/event.

I think most parents are aware this is their kid's experience. The fact that the parent shared the experience and asked for input/feedback etc.. demonstrates she/he understands this. If she/he didn't understand this, then he/she would be talking about who at the USAFA can she/he call about this, and what steps can he/she, as the parent take, to interface with the USAFA command structure to resolve this issue. She/he asked, what and why. She/He did not ask how.

It frustrates me when venting, sharing and looking for feedback, insight and understanding is presumed to be trying to control a child's life or live that child's life for them.

Exactly! When my daughter reached the 8th grade and started getting serious about attending an SA, her dad, a USNA 1980s grad and Ret. LtCol in the USMC, started working her nerves and strange ways. He pushed her and tested her ability to take stress and nonsense at every chance. This summer, he explained to her that the PT card is not her business. Instead, he did things like make her do a set of push-ups and then when she got to the last one in the set, told her to do them all over because the entire set was done incorrectly. He had her run long distances and do sets of pt after. He wanted her to understand that the PT card, just like everything else, can be circumvented for whatever purpose so don't count on it. According to him, she could never run fast enough or far enough. That's what he told her even though he thought she had the grit to make it through basic and the four years of military training before she gets to the real deal. When my daughter came in from a workout ranting and shouting about her crazy ass Dad, I nodded and let her vent and then asked her what she was going to do about it. It was/is up to her, and so I do think that her being able to let out her frustrations allowed her to get back to work quickly. She cried and yelled at him a lot. It wasn't pretty, but once she calmed down, she was back to wanting to go forward. He also told her "no excuses" and do the job with no explaining or arguing. These seem like common sense things to us as adults, but we knew our kid needed to get used to the fact that she wasn't in charge. So did all of us.

Maybe it's a idea to recognize that times are different. Thirty years ago, when her dad was on his way to I-Day, we drove him to the airport, he waved goodbye and the next time we heard from him was a week before Parents' Weekend. He was 20 pounds lighter, exhausted, but determined. After Parents' Weekend, we saw him for winter break and spring break. He didn't come home at ll during the summer and that's how it went for four years. He had no money, but he had a great sponsor family who looked out for him during breaks. That family also hosted me the few times I visited over the years--Army-Navy and then the big things were ring dance and graduation. Other than that it was letters and a call or two every couple of weeks. That was the way it was not because there was something special about the kids back then, but because that was what was available. Just because it was a certain way back then doesn't mean it was for the best, though.

Were his (or any other) parents more confident and less fearful of what was going on at the academy than we are, now? no. absolutely not. Even back then, parents got to know one another and parents' meetings and phone calls sounded just like these forums. They were just as nervous as those of us are, today. The difference is that in the 1980s, there was no social media instant cell phone contact. But trust me, there were plenty of long distance calls being made between parents, sponsor families, and significant others. It wasn't that people were so much tougher in the good old days. .

I imagine many cadets' parents are happy to be sounding boards for their kids, but I bet you they all send their kids back out there to solve there own problems. It's called support. Several folks get it. It's not about coddling cadets. It is about wanting to understand limits and boundaries. Every cadet is in training and so of course the learning curve includes a few bumps here and there. One day, our kids will be those awful upperclassmen that they are complaining about, today. They will understand when the time comes and perhaps be able to admit to themselves that the get it, now or that what they learned was wrong and then act to change things for the better of those who come after them. That does not mean we shouldn't ask questions.

To be honest, I know for sure that my daughter would stop speaking to us if we ever tried to intervene in her military training. I bet it's true for many of the cadets. That's why these forums are really more for us parents than they are for us trying to rescue our kids or regulate what happens on that base. And I doubt suffering abuse (and only the cadets can decide if what happens to them is such) won't be remembered fondly. Memories of tough times and near misses? Yes, I guess so because if I hear one more story about plebe year puking while running in a blizzard, getting lost in the woods of Quantico, or near-miss bird strikes and so on...oh my...I think I'm going to be sick...but that's the life we live.

 

[wannafly18]

haleym, back up. You aren't dealing with a 4/c and so you do not get to tell me what is appropriate. Your defensiveness is telling. Calm down and go over and investigate if you don't like what you read. I did not use any terms such as "all or always" for you to read that I think ALL are doing something wrong. Calm down. Also, sweeping generalizations? No. You took it that way, but the specifics I mention involved the people I mentioned. Again, you don't like what I said, go check it out. Don't try and manage what I say. I'm not under your training...thank goodness if you behave in such a way. Don't show the world that you have something to hide through your defensiveness.

Wannafly18,

The issue, if any, is being handled in house as it should be. Please refrain from instigating the argument further or aiming personal attacks towards the cadets of this forum who are clearly trying to help.

no personal attacks were thrown. Calm down.

 

[wannafly18]

haleym, back up. You aren't dealing with a 4/c and so you do not get to tell me what is appropriate. Your defensiveness is telling. Calm down and go over and investigate if you don't like what you read. I did not use any terms such as "all or always" for you to read that I think ALL are doing something wrong. Calm down. Also, sweeping generalizations? No. You took it that way, but the specifics I mention involved the people I mentioned. Again, you don't like what I said, go check it out. Don't try and manage what I say. I'm not under your training...thank goodness if you behave in such a way. Don't show the world that you have something to hide through your defensiveness.

If you have an issue with how I handle training or how I have addressed you on this thread, please feel free to contact me personally to voice your concerns. I am always open to feedback. I am not exactly anonymous on SAF, and like to think that I do not behave as such.

Issue? LOLOLOL. You are in charge. You win.

 

[BlahuKahuna]

Issue? LOLOLOL. You are in charge. You win.

Well, that was mature.

 

[Godandcountry]

Don't the accusations being thrown around amount to:

1. Bobby/Suzy had to make their bed for no reason many more times when the other kids didn't have to. Thats not kind or fair.

2. Bobby/Suzy had to work four hours of overtime with no warning on a night they weren't supposed to have to work. And then had to put their uniforms on when no one else had to. That's not kind or fair.

3. The food issue - i am sure no one starved. Maybe someone got uncomfortably hungry. That's not kind or fair.

If cadets can't be pushed to handle these types of things that aren't "fair" ...when there is no real danger...how could they ever handle real adversity. To succeed in any endeavor, one needs to train and prepare simulating more challenging/harder conditions than the reality of the event....and training harder/being tougher and more prepared than your enemies/opposition/competition.

Jeepers.


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[parentalunit2]

Oh my!

wannafly18 – The way you spoke to haleym, who is a current AFA cadet, I thought you were an AFA cadet too! I was going to suggest that you walk across the Tzo to settle your issues. I seriously thought I was reading an argument between two 19-year olds. You are a parent of a 2019? That’s pretty funny. This forum never ceases to amaze me. This is fun! Keep it comin’!

 

[Christcorp]

QUOTE: If this were a civilian university, there would be very clear guidelines. There would be ways to address the issues both at an university level and on a judicial level.

Can't say I really agree with this. First of all, nothing that's done in an academy BCT happens in a civilian university. Second, there is only 1 CLEAR GUIDELINE in a civilian school. Pay your money, you can stay. You don't even have to go to classes. If you walk in and take the tests, and pass, they'll usually pass you. If they don't, so what, you'll pay again to take the class over. Point is, other than actual classes, and actual college credit from an accredited university; and the fact that you get some "Regular" holiday, spring/summer break time off; there is almost nothing about the academies that can be compared to a civilian university.

The academy demands more. If you fail any part of academics, physically, medically, etc., they'll kick you out. There's a whole military side of training that civilian schools don't care about. There's a physical fitness side that a civilian school doesn't care about. (Hell, you can be 350 pounds and on oxygen and a civilian school will let you take classes. As long as you pay, a civilian school doesn't care one bit about you.) Sorry, but there is no comparing an academy to a civilian school once you go past talking about academics. And even that is border line in common. E.g. A history major at Harvard isn't mandated to take engineering classes as part of their degree.

 

[skismuggs]

I think there are a lot of parents out there like me. They want to understand and they are concerned. Platitudes don't cut it with us, only explanations do.

I don't mean this to start an argument or intend this to be malicious by any means. I have the utmost respect for you as a poster here.

My question is what will you do when your DD/DS hits the real ADAF? Will it be a problem for you when the AF says "because we said so" with no other explanations?

 

[parentalunit2]

This.

This is why these discussions just kill me.

All of the adversity being thrown at them now is to break them down and build them back up how the military wants them to be. To learn to perform under pressure. To bond as a class. No one is being mean or unfair to them – this is exactly what they signed up for. Believe me – it is all just fodder to be laughed at during future reunions. Heck, they’ll be laughing about it by Thanksgiving break! “Remember the night before classes began…..”

 

[F15DOC]

That's it, everyone out of the pool!!!
We are all on the same side here
Ain't life grand!

 

[MombaBomba]

I don't mean this to start an argument or intend this to be malicious by any means. I have the utmost respect for you as a poster here.

My question is what will you do when your DD/DS hits the real ADAF? Will it be a problem for you when the AF says "because we said so" with no other explanations?

I really should have been clearer.

In that post, I was talking about when asking questions in this forum or other public areas. I use social media (this forum, networking, other sites) to look for information and answers. I was talking about public arena's like this one, where someone asks a question and the response is "just because they say so" or "it's always done this way" or "respect my authority" or something of that nature. Some posters in social media think that people should just sit down, shut up and accept without question. I don't understand why some members (of any group or forum) expect people to keep silent in a venue that was set up for questions/concerns/etc..

If I did not have this forum and other social media to network with, I wouldn't be contacting the USAFA directly about my concerns/issues/etc. 1) It's not my place, it's my son's place. 2) They don't give a rats rear end about my feelings/concerns/perceptions. I am only a parent of a cadet. I don't matter in the scope of things. (I am not saying or implying that I should matter, only that I don't.) 3) My son would disown me (see point 1) 4) Being curious and wanting to be a good parent doesn't justify bugging the USAFA for answers. 5) Not liking ignorance doesn't justify demanding answers from USAFA.

I take advantage of social media because it is allowed. I don't pretend to be someone I am not to get access to an area where I am not welcome. I ask questions on social media because the sites I visit are designed for dialogue.

I realize that people and organizations in power will not respond if they don't feel a compelling need to. Many times such powerful people and organizations say "sit down, shut up, it's not your place to question, and this is how it is" (though they tend to say it in a far more polite way). I am not happy with the answer, but I realize there is not a single thing I can do about getting more information or explanation out of them. It ain't gonna happen in this life time. I accept this is how the world works. I am not happy about it, but I deal with it. I probably won't vote for or contribute money or buy their product or support them in any way in the future. That would be my only avenue to "express my dislike."

I also understand that the world doesn't owe me an explanation. It would be nice, but it isn't going to happen. If only I were empress of the world.....

I hope that clarifies it better. Just because I don't like something, doesn't mean I haven't learned how to deal with it and move on.

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

No no no no ... of course there's unfairness! That's life. I don't care if you're talking about military life, business life, social life --- it's all unfair. There's no where written that life is fair. How you deal with the unfairness is what's important and what defines you.

For those who gave USAFA a try and determined that it wasn't right for them, that's ok! They will do very well no matter the path they choose.

For those who survived BCT - congratulations! It is a trial by fire and you have to be committed to your path to get through it. Ultimately, we as parents have to realize that, although there are college-like aspects during the academic year, this is a military training ground. I personally want my DD to get that training. The thought that she wasn't tested to her limits and may someday be in that F-22 (!!) in a time of war makes me much more nervous than worrying about whether or not she had to make her bed more times than someone else. (Ok, that was a bit facetious, but you know what I mean!)

BTW, my DD is in CS10. Arguably the toughest squadron regarding training/beat sessions during BCT & the first half of last year -- there were stories! So, I totally understand! And, my DD was personally targeted during Recognition. She was very proud when the upperclassman who targeted her gave her prop&wings and told her that he'd always have her back.

 

[Christcorp]

Questions on this forum are great. By all means ask them. That is indeed what this forum is all about. Most of the questions are about: how do I apply? How do I get in? There's also a lot of questions about: what's it like at the academy? What is BCT like? There's nothing wrong with any of these questions.

Sometimes the answers are hard to swallow. E.g. Why is BCT the way it is? Answer: to take 1200 individual sets of morals, values, opinions, personalities, etc. and break down all those individualities to develop one set of goals; one direction; one team. And down the road, the individuals will be allowed to integrate back in their individual personality so they can achieve that one goal, one mission, one direction, as one team. Not just at the academy but as an Air Force leader.

The problem comes when the question of "why" is implied. The only answer to that is: because that is the only efficient means of training an individual to work as a team to accomplish those common goals. Especially when decisions of life and death are involved. The hardest part is for individuals, at the tender age of 17-22, to accept the fact that they don't have a say so in deciding or determining what those common goals, direction, mission, etc. are. They have to simply be able to accept the fact that those above them know best, and that they truly do have the individual's best interest, and that of the country, in mind.

Being in the military takes a lot of trust. Trust in those above you and trust that you can't and won't always know the answer to "why". But, that the goal is in the best interest of the individual, team, Air Force, and country.

 

[MombaBomba]

Being in the military takes a lot of trust. Trust in those above you and trust that you can't and won't always know the answer to "why". But, that the goal is in the best interest of the individual, team, Air Force, and country.

I think that is one of the factors that comes into play in many ways. I don't think people and society are as trusting as they used to be. I am not saying the distrust is warranted or unwarranted (I don't want to open up that can of worms, and I left my flame retardant suit at home). But over all, I really believe the lack of trust plays a much larger part than some people may realize. I believe that building trust is one of the more difficult things to do when attempting to develop a cohesive group/organization/etc. in this day and age.

 

[Christcorp]

You are correct momba. Now, combound that with mandatory respect for a persons rank, even though you don't respect them personally. In the military, respect doesn't have to be earned. Some say it's similar in the civilian job market. That's not entirely true. In the back of the civilians mind, they know they can quit if they want. In the military, you get to go to jail possibly for disobeying an order. Either way, you can't simply quit or get a new supervisor. At least until 3-4 years go by and one of you leaves for a new assignment.

 

[wannafly18]

Oh my!

wannafly18 – The way you spoke to haleym, who is a current AFA cadet, I thought you were an AFA cadet too! I was going to suggest that you walk across the Tzo to settle your issues. I seriously thought I was reading an argument between two 19-year olds. You are a parent of a 2019? That’s pretty funny. This forum never ceases to amaze me. This is fun! Keep it comin’!

First, I guess you know more than me. What's the tzo? Is it like saying parking lot or playground? My response was more about the fact that I posted and that's it. I can post. these forums should allow parents to say things even if some do not like it. You have a right to your opinion and so do I. No disrespect was intended and speaking an opinion isn't a one-sided thing.

Read my other posts and get a better picture of where I'm coming from. Just as some made a valid point that I took haleym's words the wrong way, that's the trouble with written communication. It's not perfect. The response was aggressive, but that's my opinion. You read it differently and so be it. And as I said in another post, these forums likely do more for us parents to work out getting used to things than anything else. Most of us are venting here in this thread and so what. Our kids and those in charge can handle things. Also know that the comments and concerns aren't personal in a way that might be taken. The reputation of SAs precede them. For some, there might be higher expectations than warranted--as always when we taxpayers think , and often do know the deal. Just bear with us or just don't read the posts. Similarly, one post in this thread said it perfectly that his/her cadet, on rare occasions, complains, but that they all understand that everyday cannot be all sunny. The kids move on and so do the parents. And as some also mentioned, most of the kids, if they say anything (my daughter won't complain to me), they say are treated well. It's just the rare instances that get all of the press. And trouble with a few does impact many. We have a right to talk about those instances. Not everyone is going to like it, either.