Grenade!!

Casey said:
Maybe not from the prospective candidate, because those candidates usually have no perspective yet from which to base the Academy life and what an Army life actually means yet, but there are people on these forums who have been in that yuk’s shoes and wrestled with the same decision that can offer their perspective of why they stayed. I’d also be careful saying that a person walking away before affirmation has wasted a slot. There are very good reasons the Army gives you two years to make the decision on whether or not to stay or go. I would 100% rather someone leave at the two year mark than stick it out for four years if their heart isn’t into being an Army officer. Soldiers deserve better than someone just waiting up their time on their five year obligation to peace out because they didn’t leave before they realized this wasn’t the life they wanted.
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Casey said:
Thank you guys for the reaction to my post, @Devil Doc and @justdoit19 in particular. I wasn’t expecting it to pick up that much attention. I’m constantly picking up things on these boards that helps me see other perspectives, and I’m glad that some thing that I can contribute do the same. I’m fully aware that I’m only offering a junior officer’s perspective in comparison to some of the experience




@CA_hopeful, I love the summary of questions you present. They really do summarize a great gut check for folks questioning their decision about what’s going on. For anyone reading through, while I know this response was originally directed at cvdo10’s situation, I would throw this out there that it isn’t just under performing cadets who think about leaving. I graduated in the top 5% of my class, and like I said, I almost left twice. I have a friend who did two years at West Point, left to finish his degree at an Ivy, and then came back to West Point to graduate there because he realized he had made a mistake leaving. My plebe class president left at the two year mark despite being a decorated enlisted Ranger and doing well academically. Sometimes school is a good fit. Sometimes it’s not. It’s up the individual to figure it out. And people’s reasons may have nothing to do with the Academy itself. Mine were related to a tough family situation that was adding stress to an already stressful environment.

That’s why I highly, highly encourage anyone thinking about leaving to reach out to the officers they interact with at school to get their perspective as well. Parents are absolutely a fantastic sounding board, but if they don’t have military experience, those TACs and instructors that West Point surrounds cadets with can help fill the gap in perspective of what Army life is in comparison to the daily West Point grind because they are not the same. Some things are better after graduation; some are worse. Even if they don’t feel they have a particular dedicated mentor yet, I guarantee if they just reach out to a particular instructor they liked, that officer 9 out of 10 times will drop most things to take coffee or some office hour time to sit and talk Army, leaving the Academy, and future life plans with that cadet. That’s part of the amazing part of West Point and it’s community.

Another thought to throw out there as well but TACs can also help set up a cadet’s summer schedule to do CTLT early (most commonly done as a rising firstie) as a rising cow for those unsure about Army life to get that cadet out to see life in the force before Affirmation. It just requires discussion with the TAC ahead of time, but generally if there’s a cadet feeling unsure about sticking it out, a good TAC will try to make this happen so they can make an educated decision. A very good friend of mine worked with our TAC to do CTLT and his leadership detail as a rising cow. He will tell you that getting a taste of PL life and then seeing his impact as a SL during CBT before Affirmation were probably some of the most compelling reasons to get him off the fence about staying. He’s now a happy pilot about to take command and doing great things for the Army.
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@usafacellist2026, I posted before on my thoughts about someone leaving “taking a spot” from another person. Re-posting because I think it might be a good discussion point to think about before passing complete judgment on folks who made a decision for what they wanted to do with basically the next decade of their life, not just a four year experience of college, during a completely abnormal CBT experience.

I’m going to continue to stay out of the honor code discussion. Having lived the experience, seen the types of situations that get people into positions where they are tempted to make the wrong decision, and the rehabilitation that can occur to make some pretty damn good officers when they screw up if the cadet is invested in the process, I have faith the Academy will correct what’s happening for the betterment of the Corps and continue to produce leaders of character as its mission statement dictates.
 
usafacellist2026 said:
Wait a second... so say 120 did quit during Beast, those spot are going to remain empty? No one who was waitlisted gets to fill their spot?

Disappointing in my opinion, I completely agree with you TexasAggie204, they just took away a spot which could've gone to someone else who now has to go through the application process all over again.
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I suspect most people who quit during Beast had no idea they were going to do that before they reported. There is no telling how the stresses and actual environment will hit people until they are actually there. They traveled the same path you may well travel, excited and hopeful about this first step on the path to becoming an Army officer. They wrote and spoke about the challenge and harder road in their essays and interviews. Even if USMA grabbed a few waitlisters and threw them into the middle of Beast, there is no guarantee some of them wouldn’t quit, either then or later. I am sure they didn’t think of themselves as quitters. The reality smacked them in the face, and they realized it was not the right path for them. You will not know if you can get through it until you get through it. Thoughts of quitting will most likely cross your mind throughout your time at USMA, if you go there, completely normal.

Attrition at service entry points is planned for. Any manpower shortages down the road can be managed through adjusting AROTC and OTS. Big Army will be fine.

You are a thoughtful and mature poster who will work hard to earn your appointment. You can’t imagine quitting. As an exercise in emotional intelligence and empathetic leadership skills, I urge you to think about those who quit as individuals, and imagine what they might have gone through before making a decision to leave.


“If you can learn a simple trick, Scout, you’ll get along a lot better with all kinds of folks. You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view, until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it.”
– Atticus Finch in To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee
 
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These three Letters to the Editor in Yesterday's WSJ pretty well cover the waterfront of opinion:

Hats off to the U.S. Military Academy for its decision to ax the “willful admission process,” which has perverted West Point’s honor code (“Cheating at West Point Spurs End to Leniency,” Page One, April 17). While there is no doubt Covid resulted in unique challenges for students, officers in training at every military academy pledge at matriculation to uphold the highest standards of honesty and integrity. Fundamentally, it’s a matter of always choosing to do what is right.

The explanation for cheating cited by a West Point staffer, that the environment cadets lived in was unprecedented, makes me wonder what’s more stressful—passing a freshman-level calculus exam or maintaining one’s leadership wits under enemy fire?
Jesse Armstrong

One of the cadets cashiered from West Point after a 1951 cheating scandal worked for me years later. He was a lieutenant colonel then and a very good officer. After his expulsion, he attended the University of Notre Dame, where he joined Air Force ROTC and was commissioned a second lieutenant upon graduation. He and some others expelled from West Point had received scholarships to Notre Dame from Joseph Kennedy, who believed everyone deserves a second chance.
Col. Bernard Morgan, USAF (Ret.)

Huntsville, Ala.
Continuing the second-chance policy would prove crucially beneficial to the teaching staff at West Point. When several cadets cheat, it means their instructors failed first. Cheating is the decisive clue that something is awry. It is the superintendent’s responsibility and mission to determine why instruction failed and to fix it.
Cheating is more of a “tell” on the institution than on the cheaters. Some legal orders issued from on high have to be disobeyed for the good of the Army or to ensure a campaign is successful. Enforcing absolute adherence to regulations, rules and orders are hallmarks of totalitarian regimes.
Dan S. Grimes
Charlotte, N.C.

I wonder what experience Mr. Grimes has with totalitarian regimes.
 
usafacellist2026 said:
Wait a second... so say 120 did quit during Beast, those spot are going to remain empty? No one who was waitlisted gets to fill their spot?
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Adding to @Casey's point upthread...

Once again it is time to explain how yield works to reassure those upset about attritions that there is no next-in-line applicant who lost out because someone failed to show up on R-Day or dropped out of the academy at any point before graduation. It is not a one-for-one equation.

No R-Day or Beast or pre-affirmation attrition affects any non-appointee as the academy purposefully overenrolls expecting to lose a good chunk of those they did appoint and not just in the early days, but all the way up to graduation to hit that target of roughly 1,000 newly commissioned officers each year. The class of 2019, for example, lost about 275 between R-Day and graduation and just missed perfectly hitting that 1,000 mark by fewer than 20. It’s a carefully calibrated model. So, those 1,300 or so appointments handed out each year already accounted for (expected) attrition and that next-in-line kid you’re concerned about didn’t even make the bloated list.

If an academy’s yield is significantly off in any given year, appointments will be adjusted the following year and, of course, all of those kids who didn’t make the bloated list have an opportunity to try again.
 
VelveteenR said:
Adding to @Casey's point upthread...

Once again it is time to explain how yield works to reassure those upset about attritions that there is no next-in-line applicant who lost out because someone failed to show up on R-Day or dropped out of the academy at any point before graduation. It is not a one-for-one equation.

No R-Day or Beast or pre-affirmation attrition affects any non-appointee as the academy purposefully overenrolls expecting to lose a good chunk of those they did appoint and not just in the early days, but all the way up to graduation to hit that target of roughly 1,000 newly commissioned officers each year. The class of 2019, for example, lost about 275 between R-Day and graduation and just missed perfectly hitting that 1,000 mark by fewer than 20. It’s a carefully calibrated model. So, those 1,300 or so appointments handed out each year already accounted for (expected) attrition and that next-in-line kid you’re concerned about didn’t even make the bloated list.

If an academy’s yield is significantly off in any given year, appointments will be adjusted the following year and, of course, all of those kids who didn’t make the bloated list have an opportunity to try again.
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It’s not that easy. ROTC and OCS are used to adjust years groups, adding more or less O-1s to the pipeline as needed. You can’t just adjust the following year as you’re looking 10-15 years down the pipe and the number of majors (O-4s) that will be needed then, not just the number of 2LTs that are needed now. O-4s take time to train.
ROTC can be adjusted taking fewer or more active duty officers as needed. Some years active duty is very competitive. DW’s year it was the opposite. She had a guaranteed reserve scholarship, was accepted to grad school, had plans for attending a friend’s wedding over the summer, when her PMS called her in and told her “Congratulations! You’re going active duty.” She was not amused and assumed a mistake was made but was then showed the fine print.
OCS is the final means to quickly throttle the number of officers on and off for a year group.
They won’t take more SA applicants unless they foresee a need for that potential year group down the line.
 
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+1 to @VelveteenR. The SAs have been at this admissions thing for a while. They know well their expected yield, as it’s the highest (and maybe the steadiest) among American colleges. It’s not a one-declines-another-gets-an-offer proposition.

At USNA’s I-Day three years ago, the Supe said the goal for the incoming Class of 2022 (1200 strong) was to graduate 1000 of them. USNA — like the other SAs — had already anticipated that some 15% would leave for any number of reasons. It happens every year and it doesn’t make those who departed bad people.

(Well, maybe a few of them who left on poor terms. But otherwise, this sort of thing happens at every college. Those who left earned their spots and don’t owe anyone else anything. Unless they left voluntarily after 2/7, which is another matter all together.)
 
UHBlackhawk said:
It’s not that easy. ROTC and OCS are used to adjust years groups, adding more or less O-1s to the pipeline as needed.
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West Point’s yield model is only concerned with those 1,000 2nd LTs. Big Army, not the academy, controls the rest of the soup. All WP cares about is hitting whatever target it’s given and adjusts its yield model accordingly.
 
VelveteenR said:
West Point’s yield model is only concerned with those 1,000 2nd LTs. Big Army, not the academy, controls the rest of the soup. All WP cares about is hitting whatever target it’s given and adjusts its yield model accordingly.
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I think you're both correct in what you're saying. West Point aims to graduate ~1000 a year and the initial offers to a class take into account historical attrition rates to meet that goal while keeping its total numbers under whatever the congressional mandate is for total strength of the Corps (typically somewhere around 4400).

When West Point fails to meet its goals, there are other means at the disposal to the Army to meet the required active duty O1 population needed for force projections down the road based on officer attrition like UHBlackHawk describes that come through the competitiveness of slots for ROTC/OCS and within ROTC - active duty v reserve slots.
 
Casey said:
I think you're both correct in what you're saying. West Point aims to graduate ~1000 a year and the initial offers to a class take into account historical attrition rates to meet that goal while keeping its total numbers under whatever the congressional mandate is for total strength of the Corps (typically somewhere around 4400).

When West Point fails to meet its goals, there are other means at the disposal to the Army to meet the required active duty O1 population needed for force projections down the road based on officer attrition like UHBlackHawk describes that come through the competitiveness of slots for ROTC/OCS and within ROTC - active duty v reserve slots.
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That was my point. The SAs have goals, but the number of O-1s can be throttled back and forth with ROTC and OCS as necessary. Once a SA class is set it’s tough to change their numbers dramatically. You can maybe give out fewer commissioning waivers if the numbers are too great, but you can’t add any except through setbacks from other classes. As an example, the class of 2002 probably was under strength after 9/11. I don’t have the numbers, but I’m sure ROTC and OCS active duty assessments changed to make up for the shortfall.
Post Gulf War it was the opposite. The military found itself over strength. Many reserve LTs on active duty were suddenly shown the door with 90 days to become civilians. SA graduates were offered early outs, some serving only a few years. Active duty for ROTC became very competitive. Promotion rate for DW’s year group to O-3 was 75%. Normally it’s about 95%.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the post Gulf War model copied in the next few years.
 
Wishful said:
@ETM ???
How do you know that the conclusion you stated (that the MIDS will not be given the opportunity to succeed) was the one they all reached when they resigned? Maybe the place isn't for them. Maybe they realized that STEM classes were not for them. Maybe they were at USNA because their parents wanted it & this was their chance to get out, etc..MIDS/Cadets drop out in years 1 & 2.

Isn't repeating the class this semester (Should be easy since they passed it on your own already; just have to brush off their notes.) & taking part 2 this summer a chance to succeed? I think so. I wouldn't want to do it, but if I wanted to be a Naval Officer Academy grad, it's a hoop I'd have to jump through. Won't be the last time they'll find out that life/military/work/school/relationships are not fair; that sometimes it's about the process/institution/someone else etc.

It looks to me that the system is working. Someone's' actions/conduct warranted an investigation. The investigation concluded, the results were presented in a judicial setting where the accused has rights, & a verdict was reached.

I agree with your statement on all being tarred with the presumption of guilt brush is wrong, but it's safe to say that in this current climate, certain people are presumed guilty by the court of public opinion & those accused have to wait to be proven innocent.
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Because of the actions taken before they had their hearings. They have to make up two classes because they were issued failing grades for the first and then were withdrawn from their second before completion. Their schedules are too tight to accomplish that. They were removed from summer training sessions. Then by their removal from the second class, they have a stigma attached to them that they can't shake. They were guilty and have had to prove themselves innocent.
 
ETM said:
Because of the actions taken before they had their hearings. They have to make up two classes because they were issued failing grades for the first and then were withdrawn from their second before completion. Their schedules are too tight to accomplish that. They were removed from summer training sessions. Then by their removal from the second class, they have a stigma attached to them that they can't shake. They were guilty and have had to prove themselves innocent.
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Were they innocent?
 
A1Janitor said:
Were they innocent?
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I know of at least one whom my Mid DD knows well that was cleared at his recent board of any wrongdoing. Hence he is now behind academically and has to retake Physics 2. I think he will be give a complete and a grade for Physics 1 though. So yes this process will affect some innocent Mids. Not sure it will be a sizeable number but still at least one I know for sure has a set back because of being presumed guilty part way into the spring semester and being yanked from Physics 2 before his honor board met recently.
 
usna90 said:
I know of at least one whom my Mid DD knows well that was cleared at his recent board of any wrongdoing. Hence he is now behind academically and has to retake Physics 2. I think he will be give a complete and a grade for Physics 1 though. So yes this process will affect some innocent Mids. Not sure it will be a sizeable number but still at least one I know for sure has a set back because of being presumed guilty part way into the spring semester and being yanked from Physics 2 before his honor board met recently.
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This is horrible. I never heard this.
 
When there is a potential for wrong doing we need to give people an accessible out (that they would feel comfortable using) at every stage so to speak.
Is there a I'm going to fail this class and I waited too long to say something option for them?
 
Don't Quit is great but we need to remind everyone especially young people that if a job, school, relationship, or whatever important great thing they have going for them, if it doesn't work out then it is still OK.
 
Do you think that policy plus the acting like the school treating them like they were guilty right away in some way contributed towards students saying they cheated if they did not to guarantee that they still have a spot?
 
Wishful said:
@ETM ???
How do you know that the conclusion you stated (that the MIDS will not be given the opportunity to succeed) was the one they all reached when they resigned? Maybe the place isn't for them. Maybe they realized that STEM classes were not for them. Maybe they were at USNA because their parents wanted it & this was their chance to get out, etc..MIDS/Cadets drop out in years 1 & 2.

Isn't repeating the class this semester (Should be easy since they passed it on your own already; just have to brush off their notes.) & taking part 2 this summer a chance to succeed? I think so. I wouldn't want to do it, but if I wanted to be a Naval Officer Academy grad, it's a hoop I'd have to jump through. Won't be the last time they'll find out that life/military/work/school/relationships are not fair; that sometimes it's about the process/institution/someone else etc.

It looks to me that the system is working. Someone's' actions/conduct warranted an investigation. The investigation concluded, the results were presented in a judicial setting where the accused has rights, & a verdict was reached.

I agree with your statement on all being tarred with the presumption of guilt brush is wrong, but it's safe to say that in this current climate, certain people are presumed guilty by the court of public opinion & those accused have to wait to be proven innocent.
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I agree with you in that life is not fair, one should be able to expect that they USNA would at least follow their established procedures. On paper it looks like the system would work. However, this is not a judicial setting. While there are statements that the accused has rights, that has played out that they in essence do not. It is in writing that questions about due process are not within the jurisdiction of the Honor Board process.

The Physics Department Chair said they were guilty and meted out punishments before charges were formally filed and the kids had a chance to defend/explain themselves. There continues to be the presumption of guilt and the chain of command is pressuring all to just admit they are guilty so that the process will be easier on them. Some were presented with completed (just missing their signatures) QRs. Many were advised to take guilty pleas going into their Honor Boards -- making that then a kangaroo court. It is more than rumor that at least one admitted guilty and then the Honor Board found him Not In Violation because they couldn't believe that someone would be so bad at cheating. The investigation reports are littered with statements saying that the process has been aggravated by the MIDN not admitting guilt, that the MIDN is just lying or making up stories, etc. Those that choose to defend themselves have been advised that only guilty people consult with an attorney. That only guilty people retain their right to silence. The "evidence" presented in some cases has been manipulated and altered, this fact knowingly admitted to by USNA in writing. The recommendation to retain is based primarily on the MIDNs admission of guilt and remorse.

The young men and women that were involved were not given failing grades until mid-way through the semester. Too late to take Physics 1 this past semester. So they are now scheduled to take it this summer -- cancelling at least one of their Blocks which 2023 is already behind on because of the pandemic. They are to then take Physics 2 in the fall. And since Physics 2 is a prerequisite for many of their classes, this will put them behind the 8 ball. In some cases, they will have to change their major because they won't be able to enroll in a necessary class. For those that are innocent, the hit to their GPA, lack of training and major change will make them not be competitive for service select. Then the hypocrisy of the system... Maybe you are right that I just need to redefine success.

The USNA is now so vested in their position that it has failed many of these MIDNs. Many of you praise the USMA position to do away with the willful admission process. While not specifically in writing, the USNA has a similar policy. The whole process is prejudiced and should be reviewed/revised at the highest levels.
 
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