3/c NROTC - Uniform options to wear at sibling's wedding

[Herman_Snerd]

I know sometimes people post something "for someone I know" when it's really for themselves. fyi- not this time.

A parent posted the following on a FB site: "My (NROTC) 3/C mid is a groomsmen (is) in LT older brothers SpaceForce wedding in December. Groom wants him in mess dress. It hasnt been issued - any clue if we are allowed to acquire it ourselves, if he is allowed to wear it and if so where / how to acquire mess dress?" Any recommendations on what if any Navy uniform this 3/c Midn can wear to a wedding? Outside of Frank Abignale, Jr or Judge Snells, should anyone not a military officer wear an officer uniform?

Navy Officer mess dress is typically is only worn at the O4 (Lt. Commander) rank and above (to my understanding), not when you're a sophomore trainee in college in NROTC (USNA Midn uniform expectations/ issuances are reportedly different)... What about Service Blues, Summer whites that he may already be in possession of (Borrowed Gov't property he can keep should be complete the NROTC training or must return if he does not)?

all feedback welcome. Thanks in advance.

or

 

[Capt MJ]

Mess dress is not a required uniform for a Navy officer until they are O-4, but they may certainly acquire and wear it prior to that. I certainly wanted the fun of going to Navy balls in mess dress as a JO!

USNA midshipmen get issued mess dress (it’s actually “dinner dress blue jacket,” but is seldom called that). That is an expensive uniform and has to be striped with midshipman stripes. I think it would not be sensible for a NROTC midshipman to acquire it. JMHO.

For officers who don’t have mess dress, they can wear a version of service dress blue that is considered equivalent, which I recommend as the solution that can be legitimately applied here.

Let me go look that up…

Ok. Here we go.
Dinner Dress Blue Jacket is “mess dress,” with cummerbund, short jacket, bow tie, etc.

Dinner Dress Blue is essentially service dress blue with bow tie, dress shirt and mini medals.

https://www.mynavyexchange.com/browse/military/navy/_/N-1244704230

Black tie equivalent.
I would think a NROTC midshipman could take existing midshipman SDB uniform elements, swap in the Dinner Dress Blue elements (shirt, bow tie), and be good to go. Any version of SDB is wearable year round. The midshipman would be in an appropriate Dinner Dress version of his SDB.

Male Officer Dinner Dress Blue

How to buy things: Any NEX uniform store. Or, online NEX uniform store, see link below. Fingers crossed he is eligible to use it, as it requires him to be in the DEERS system and will take his SSN to be verified as an authorized user. I am vague on when ROTC cadets and mids can use Exchanges. A white dress shirt and black bow tie can also be found fairly easily…

Navy Uniforms | Shop Your Navy Exchange - Official Site

Navy Uniforms | You Serve, You Save. Shop myNavyExchange.com for Navy Uniforms at the best prices.

www.mynavyexchange.com

Paging our NROTC PNS Emeritus, @GWU PNS to weigh in on my analysis and offer guidance.

The midshipman can always do this research, then consult his chain of command on this option, as the official way to go.

Gratuitous advice: If the midshipman is not yet 21,he should be extremely careful with beverage choices at the wedding.

 

[Capt MJ]

That Dinner Dress with the white waist coat and white tie, in the pic above, the most formal, white-tie equivalent - husband wore it just one time in his entire career. (pretty dang spiffy) We were at a very fancy military ball in LA. I wore regular DDBJ (mess dress). I had a bejeweled Rodeo Drive suspected shopper lady ask me in the ladies’ room if I got my “outfit” in a vintage store, as it was a cute idea to wear to a military ball. She had no idea there were female officers in the military. None.

 

[MidCakePa]

The midshipman can always do this research, then consult his chain of command on this option, as the official way to go.

^^^ THIS ^^^

Let your mid take the lead in figuring this out. When DD asked DS, then an AROTC MS1, to render her first salute after USNA graduation, he had to determine the uniform situation. AROTC, he learned, typically bars the wearing of any uniform outside of official military activities specific to the battalion. So he went directly to the battalion commander, an LTC, explained the situation and requested an exception. It was granted. (It probably didn’t hurt that the same weekend DD was graduating, DS was being honored, in absentia, as his battalion’s MS1 of the Year.)

I don’t know how NROTC policy differs from AROTC. But the main thing is for your mid to take the lead in doing the research and devising the plan.

 

[Capt MJ]

The services have typically been generous in spirit when it comes to military people wearing uniforms at private family events, including midshipmen and cadets and others in training status. It is not uncommon to be on the USNA Yard mid-winter and see people in “choker white” (service dress white) in wedding parties, a summer uniform not prescribed for winter wear in Annapolis. As long as they are not doing stupid things out in town in an out-of-season uniform or back at the hotel in public view, it’s tolerated.

The true first step is to research NROTC regulations, uniform regulations, request guidance from chain of command.

 

[GWU PNS (emeritus)]

How to buy things: Any NEX uniform store. Or, online NEX uniform store, see link below. Fingers crossed he is eligible to use it, as it requires him to be in the DEERS system and will take his SSN to be verified as an authorized user. I am vague on when ROTC cadets and mids can use Exchanges. A white dress shirt and black bow tie can also be found fairly easily…

Per usual, CAPT MJ is correct. The first thing I would do is ask the unit's supply tech if they have any bow ties or dress shirts which could be borrowed. That would save some money.

Some of the Navy Exchanges are persnickety and require an ID card that reflects MIDN 2/C or above standing. Others don't care. But with a little pleading, I am confident that one of the Lieutenants or one of the upper class Mids would buy something at the NEX if needed.

My personal opinion is that Mess Dress would look out of place on a Midshipman and to be honest, I wouldn't wear it as an O6 to the formal wedding but I might shift into it for the reception. It is clunky and uncomfortable and if you have no medals at all, sorry to say, you look kind of dumb.

Lastly, while this might seem harsh, if older brother wants a special uniform then he should be forking over the bucks.

Last cautionary note....if there will be lots of military officers there, a wise Midshipman would do well to check with his AMOI on proper saluting courtesies in or near a church or reception.

 

[nuensis]

What about Service Blues, Summer whites that he may already be in possession of (Borrowed Gov't property he can keep should be complete the NROTC training or must return if he does not)?

Dinner dress blue may be more doable. It's SDB, but with a bowtie.

Not sure if the regs are different for NROTC MIDN, but USNA MIDN mess dress requires epaulet straps for hard shoulderboards (similar to summer whites or service dress white). They are not striped like the officer uniform.

Plenty of USNA grads screw it up after commissioning and continue to wear shoulderboards with mess dress. Looks real weird.

 

[Capt MJ]

Dinner dress blue may be more doable. It's SDB, but with a bowtie.

Not sure if the regs are different for NROTC MIDN, but USNA MIDN mess dress requires epaulet straps for hard shoulderboards (similar to summer whites or service dress white). They are not striped like the officer uniform.

Plenty of USNA grads screw it up after commissioning and continue to wear shoulderboards with mess dress. Looks real weird.

Oh yes, good point on shoulder boards being unique to midshipmen. Forgot that.

And for the record, I also see recent Navy grads with their new swords without the required officer sword lace and knots precisely wrapped per regs on the hilt (no sword lace and knots on mid swords), almost every time I see a sword arch on the Chapel steps after a wedding. They weren’t accustomed to having it; family didn’t know to buy it. Only mentioning this because it’s a minor pet peeve.

 

[Capt MJ]

Oh, and from the link I posted above, here is what Dinner Dress Blue (men) looks like, worn by junior officers who have not chosen to purchase Dinner Dress Blue Jacket (“mess dress”) yet, as it is not required at the lowest officer ranks. It’s essentially SDB all dressed up. USNA mids get the DDBJ (“mess dress”); they wear it far more often.

And if everyone isn’t sufficiently down the rabbit hole by now, Officer Full Dress Blue (FDB) or Full Dress White (“choker whites”) is the uniform worn with sword and large medals. Those are mini medals below on Dinner Dress Blue, also worn on the “mess dress” version.

 

[USMCGrunt]

The services have typically been generous in spirit when it comes to military people wearing uniforms at private family events, including midshipmen and cadets and others in training status. It is not uncommon to be on the USNA Yard mid-winter and see people in “choker white” (service dress white) in wedding parties, a summer uniform not prescribed for winter wear in Annapolis. As long as they are not doing stupid things out in town in an out-of-season uniform or back at the hotel in public view, it’s tolerated.

There is already great and informed advice here for the OP.

I will say that I think the USMC would be upset if a NROTC-MO wore a Marine uniform prior to earning the EGA. This is an opinion, not fact, but I offer it for future readers of this thread.

 

[MidCakePa]

Last cautionary note....if there will be lots of military officers there, a wise Midshipman would do well to check with his AMOI on proper saluting courtesies in or near a church or reception.

Back to the story of DS in uniform at DD’s graduation: His head was on a swivel, his eyes peeled and scanning for approaching officers who’d require a salute. He was a bit tense, with so many bars and eagles and oak leafs around him. And then DD’s best friend’s dad — a one star — came up. The highest-ranking person DS had ever saluted.

I told this story to DD afterward. And she said, “Oh, I forgot to tell you. Graduation is considered a no-salute zone. Too many officers walking around. You’d be saluting non-stop.” Now she tells him!

 

[Capt MJ]

Back to the story of DS in uniform at DD’s graduation: His head was on a swivel, his eyes peeled and scanning for approaching officers who’d require a salute. He was a bit tense, with so many bars and eagles and oak leafs around him. And then DD’s best friend’s dad — a one star — came up. The highest-ranking person DS had ever saluted.

I told this story to DD afterward. And she said, “Oh, I forgot to tell you. Graduation is considered a no-salute zone. Too many officers walking around. You’d be saluting non-stop.” Now she tells him!

And even it’s a no-salute zone at a special event, saluting a flag or general officer or senior foreign officer who might not know the custom, is never a bad idea. It’s a courtesy. When I had bad timing and walked on Stribling Walk at USNA during a class change window or other high mid-traffic time, I returned salutes non-stop. My arm did not fall off.

There are Navy campuses and compounds where an officer might be stationed and routinely be moving outside between buildings, where it is declared an uncovered zone, so no saluting. Navy officers do not salute unless covered. I think Marine Corps is the same but welcome my devil dog brethren here to remind me.

 

[OldRetSWO]

USNA MIDN mess dress requires epaulet straps for hard shoulderboards (similar to summer whites or service dress white). They are not striped like the officer uniform.

That is a nice change from the former practice of requiring the brigade to get blue mess dress striped each year. We would turn them in before leaving for the summer and the tailor shop would restripe 3000 or so jackets over the summer.
White mess dress for male mids was always the same as for male officers as they required the shoulderboard straps.

 

[Capt MJ]

That is a nice change from the former practice of requiring the brigade to get blue mess dress striped each year. We would turn them in before leaving for the summer and the tailor shop would restripe 3000 or so jackets over the summer.
White mess dress for mids was always the same as for officers as they required the shoulderboard straps.

An interesting point: Officer Dinner Dress White Jacket (mess dress), Women, does not have shoulder boards, but is striped, just like the blue version. See pic.

I have to say, this is classic. Pose a uniform question, and it’s like catnip to military people, active or veteran.

 

[OldRetSWO]

An interesting point: Officer Dinner Dress White Jacket (mess dress), Women, does not have shoulder boards, but is striped, just like the blue version. See pic.

I have to say, this is classic. Pose a uniform question, and it’s like catnip to military people, active or veteran.

View attachment 14546

I edited my post to reflect "male" uniforms.

 

[Capt MJ]

I edited my post to reflect "male" uniforms.

 

[WT Door]

And even it’s a no-salute zone at a special event, saluting a flag or general officer or senior foreign officer who might not know the custom, is never a bad idea. It’s a courtesy. When I had bad timing and walked on Stribling Walk at USNA during a class change window or other high mid-traffic time, I returned salutes non-stop. My arm did not fall off.

There are Navy campuses and compounds where an officer might be stationed and routinely be moving outside between buildings, where it is declared an uncovered zone, so no saluting. Navy officers do not salute unless covered. I think Marine Corps is the same but welcome my devil dog brethren here to remind me.

The Assistant Air Officer, a Marine, and I were both wearing bags. He was a major and I, a JG. We were both uncovered in an LZ in Sardinia when a senior Spanish officer came up to him and started a conversation. As the officer approached, the Marine popped a sharp salute. When I saw the Major's hand start to raise I joined him in saluting the Spanish officer. Where our protocol is not to salute while uncovered, I learned a simple diplomatic courtesy that day due to the Major's example.

 

[kinnem]

There is already great and informed advice here for the OP.

I will say that I think the USMC would be upset if a NROTC-MO wore a Marine uniform prior to earning the EGA. This is an opinion, not fact, but I offer it for future readers of this thread.

It may be opinion, but I've no doubt it's correct. Marine Option midshipmen always wear Navy uniforms. except for BDUs. Hell, I don't think they get to wear any other Marine uniform until their commissioning ceremony, which may or may not be immediately after receiving EGA.

EDIT: Oh yeah. They need to buy those uniforms.

 

[GWU PNS (emeritus)]

It may be opinion, but I've no doubt it's correct. Marine Option midshipmen always wear Navy uniforms. except for BDUs. Hell, I don't think they get to wear any other Marine uniform until their commissioning ceremony, which may or may not be immediately after receiving EGA.

EDIT: Oh yeah. They need to buy those uniforms.

Depending on the unit, Marine Options wear MARPAT when they do their Field Exercises.

 

[BJD16]

Just for clarification, does Marine Corps MARPAT = Army BDU?