3 USNA Football Players Face Sexual Assault Probe

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18 pages later and I can no longer resist the temptation to weigh in.

We can nuance this topic to death... and clearly we are. But here is how I've raised my children:

#1 If you wouldn't want it printed in the paper, don't say it.
#2 If you wouldn't want it done to your sister/brother, don't do it.


My son made the decision to join the military because he believes deep-down that someone needs to stand up for those that cannot stand up for themselves. That's his old-fashioned definition of honor.

I almost.... almost.... feel badly for the first person/cadet/cadre/commander that assaults one of his female squad mates. And rest assured, he will gladly accept the consequences of his actions in such a case.

IMHO, that is the mindset our best and brightest should be living everyday.
 
I don't understand where "culture of turning a blind eye" is coming from. Please see below for the basis of my comments.:eek:

Maybe it's because I'm a white anglo-saxon protestant (WASP) male. Uh oh, I just said WASP Not going to touch this statement at all.:thumbdown:


A recent Pentagon report estimated that as many as 26,000 military service members may have been assaulted last year. According to the report, a small fraction—just 3,374 instances —were reported. Those cases resulted in 238 convictions. The Pentagon also reported a 35% surge in the number of active-duty personnel receiving “unwanted sexual contact” in the past two years. I am fairly certain if you lived in a community where the conviction rate for sexual assualts was this abisimal you would move or have the prosocuter fired/voted out.

WASHINGTON – The military’s top uniformed officers acknowledged before a Senate panel Tuesday that they had lost focus on sexual assaults in their services while they also opposed proposals that would remove commanders’ discretion to overturn decisions to prosecute troops and throw out their convictions.
“I took my eye off the ball in the commands I had,” said Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in response to a statement by Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., that little had changed despite 20 years of negative publicity.
A decade of war, Dempsey said, had pushed aside the issue in favor of improving “command climate.”

Michigan Democrat Carl Levin, the panel’s chairman, cited the film (The Invisible War) in his opening statement. Indiana Democrat Joe Donnelly asked about retired Coast Guard Seaman Kori Cioca’s account of being raped and later warned she would be court-martialed for lying if she reported it.

“I watched that and it broke my heart,” Adm. Robert Papp, the Coast Guard commandant, replied. “We’ve made that mandatory viewing for our senior leaders.”

I am pleased that Adm. Rapp has made this film mandatory viewing for his leaders and it does show progress but I stand by my comments of "turning a blind eye" based on the admissions of the officers giving testominy to Congress.
 
sheriff3 said:
I don't understand where "culture of turning a blind eye" is coming from. Please see below for the basis of my comments.:eek:

Maybe it's because I'm a white anglo-saxon protestant (WASP) male. Uh oh, I just said WASP Not going to touch this statement at all.:thumbdown:


A recent Pentagon report estimated that as many as 26,000 military service members may have been assaulted last year. According to the report, a small fraction—just 3,374 instances —were reported. Those cases resulted in 238 convictions. The Pentagon also reported a 35% surge in the number of active-duty personnel receiving “unwanted sexual contact” in the past two years. I am fairly certain if you lived in a community where the conviction rate for sexual assualts was this abisimal you would move or have the prosocuter fired/voted out.

WASHINGTON – The military’s top uniformed officers acknowledged before a Senate panel Tuesday that they had lost focus on sexual assaults in their services while they also opposed proposals that would remove commanders’ discretion to overturn decisions to prosecute troops and throw out their convictions.
“I took my eye off the ball in the commands I had,” said Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in response to a statement by Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., that little had changed despite 20 years of negative publicity.
A decade of war, Dempsey said, had pushed aside the issue in favor of improving “command climate.”

Michigan Democrat Carl Levin, the panel’s chairman, cited the film (The Invisible War) in his opening statement. Indiana Democrat Joe Donnelly asked about retired Coast Guard Seaman Kori Cioca’s account of being raped and later warned she would be court-martialed for lying if she reported it.

“I watched that and it broke my heart,” Adm. Robert Papp, the Coast Guard commandant, replied. “We’ve made that mandatory viewing for our senior leaders.”

I am pleased that Adm. Rapp has made this film mandatory viewing for his leaders and it does show progress but I stand by my comments of "turning a blind eye" based on the admissions of the officers giving testominy to Congress.
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Yeah, I just don't believe it. I have no doubt, like the rest of the country, there are bad actors, but Adm. Papp's reaction doesn't mean there is a climate in the Coast Guard. I've certainly been closer to the "deck plates" than Adm. Papp.... in recent history.

35% surge in unwanted touching or 35% surge in reporting of unwanted touching? That's the question.

Unreported does not = blind eye. It HAS to be reported for action to take place. I don't know how a seaman "retires", but I do wonder (because I haven't seen the film), was she doing anything that was against the rules that the person was saying she could be Court Martialed for, or was he/she saying she could be Court Martialed just to shut her up? Certainly, a fear or reporting is also having to report yourself. That was seen in the rape case at the Air Force Academy in 2003. Females weren't reporting because they were also afraid of being disenrolled for their non-rape misconducted (like drinking underage).
 
"A recent Pentagon report estimated that as many as 26,000 military service members may have been assaulted last year. According to the report, a small fraction—just 3,374 instances —were reported. Those cases resulted in 238 convictions. The Pentagon also reported a 35% surge in the number of active-duty personnel receiving “unwanted sexual contact” in the past two years. I am fairly certain if you lived in a community where the conviction rate for sexual assualts was this abisimal you would move or have the prosocuter fired/voted out."

Sheriff, I suggest that you google the following "Lindsay Rodman" and "Wall Street Journal" to find a very cogent and convincing critique of that study and the numbers cited in it. (You have to find it that way because if you go to the Wall Street Journal site it is behind a paywall.) It is so distressing when questionable numbers get repeated over and over again until they become accepted conventional wisdom. Especially about something so serious.

Also, I have been surprised to see the discussion here described as a "food fight", etc. I think that people have expressed themselves quite respectfully. Differing points of view, of course, but I don't think anyone has been insulting or demeaning. And it seems the common pitfall that occurs in discussions of sexual assault and harrassment (and their definitions) of accusations of "blaming the victim" or otherwise arguing out of bad faith hasn't really cropped up much inthis discussion.
 
sheriff3 said:
Michigan Democrat Carl Levin, the panel’s chairman, cited the film (The Invisible War) in his opening statement. Indiana Democrat Joe Donnelly asked about retired Coast Guard Seaman Kori Cioca’s account of being raped and later warned she would be court-martialed for lying if she reported it.

“I watched that and it broke my heart,” Adm. Robert Papp, the Coast Guard commandant, replied. “We’ve made that mandatory viewing for our senior leaders.”

I am pleased that Adm. Rapp has made this film mandatory viewing for his leaders and it does show progress but I stand by my comments of "turning a blind eye" based on the admissions of the officers giving testominy to Congress.
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No disrespect to Honorable Carl Levin, but what makes him the authority on what culture our military has?
 
FWIW: I was replaying to the 2004 grade article; presented by luigi; where the individual believes a lot of the rape problems today are linked to a "Cultural Shift" and how women are treated. I simply disagreed heavily with the 2004 grad, because I pointed out that women TODAY are treated a lot better than they use to be. This is why the discussion seems to have shifted. It really hasn't. It just went from rape as an act, to possible causes, reasons, or motivation for rape. The 2004 grad believes it's because of the way women are looked at today. I disagree.

Oh, and MemberG. As for the "BUSS RIDE". That's easy. I sit next to the one that ISN'T FAT, SWEATIE, and SMELLY. I grew up in the Newark, Manhatten, Jersey City, etc. area. I rode a lot of busses growing up. I'll take gangster looking one for 20 minutes before sitting next to the smelly one. :thumb:
 
MemberLG said:
No disrespect to Honorable Carl Levin, but what makes him the authority on what culture our military has?
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He saw a movie of course.... and then a lobbiest called him... and his eyes were opened!

And really Congress is "surprised?"

I spent a month TAD at the Coast Guard Senate Liaison Office. How many senators forwarded letters from their constituents whining about being kicked out for positive drug tests. And those senators wanted answers. "Punish them all.... unless they vote for me.... then waste your time telling me why the Coast Guard enforces rules."

I've spent the last 11 months reading 21 books (I spend a nice chunk of time on a train each day) about the financial crisis (mostly 2008... but others) and a common theme has seemed to be good ideas blocked by interested parties (and some reckless capital requirements).
 
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Here is a different way of looking at this issue, because I am different:rolleyes:

The MA's currently have a seperate but equal policy when it comes to women cadets. They can do almost everything with the men but they can't shower with them, they can't bunk in the same rooms. Why???

The only reason I can come up with is that they are sex objects and if they are put to close to the men sex will accur. (When men sleep and shower together, we don't worry about it even though sex does accur sometimes). I believe this is the clear/unspoken message being sent by the authorities

Until we can no longer think with what is between our legs but with whats on our shoulder and make that the minimum expectation this will always be an issue

Do I think it is an easy transition..No.. but neither is/was true racial/ethical desegeration.

The bus question posted back is a good exapmle of this...Until you can get on the bus and see two opportunities to meet someone new/ or not and approach the problem of where to sit based on trying to understand where your greatest opportunity sits based on relality of the individuals and not on our pre-convieved notion of what each individual represents, you will not be FREE. This is hard because we are pre-wired to make prejudice descions, so we have to work hard on re-wiring our prejudices. Not easy, but do-able!
 
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pathnottaken said:
Here is a different way of looking at this issue, because I am different:rolleyes:

The MA's currently have a seperate but equal policy when it comes to women cadets. They can do almost everything with the men but they can't shower with them, they can't bunk in the same rooms. Why???

The only reason I can come up with is that they are sex objects and if they are put to close to the men sex will accur. (When men sleep and shower together, we don't worry about it even though sex does accur sometimes). I believe this is the clear/unspoken message being sent by the authorities

Until we can no longer think with what is between our legs but with whats on our shoulder and make that the minimum expectation this will always be an issue

Do I think it is an easy transition..No.. but neither is/was true racial/ethical desegeration.

The bus question posted back is a good exapmle of this...Until you can get on the bus and see two opportunities to meet someone new/ or not and approach the problem of where to sit based on trying to understand where your greatest opportunity sits based on relality of the individuals and not on our pre-convieved notion of what each individual represents. This is hard because we are pre-wired to make prejudice descions, so we have to work hard on re-wiring our prejudices. Not easy, but do-able!
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This is my favorite, but most redic comment on this whole thread. What's "going on between our legs" is much stronger than a learned behavior. It's not something you can unlearn or turn off.

I visited, with a classmate, NYC while I was a cadet. We stayed with my female friend/classmate from high school; slept on her floor in sleeping bags, at Barnard College, an all women's school.

It was my first experience with co-ed restrooms. And let me tell you, I really did not like using the restroom with women (there are just some things I don't want to know, hear or imagine).... but if I had to shower with them... that would be too much. Luckily, nothing is gained from your suggestion. I never showered with my boss (and I don't shower with anyone from work) and yet somehow we do fine together.

We don't need to "re-write" our prejudices... they're there for a reason and they serve a purpose. (Guy with a ski mask in the bank.... AVOID) (Guy in a trench coat with naked legs preparing to open said trench coat .... LOOK AWAY)... we're judging them without knowing if the ski mask is because he's cold or the guy in a trench coat is in shorts.... but it keeps us alive.
 
LineInTheSand said:
This is my favorite, but most redic comment on this whole thread. What's "going on between our legs" is much stronger than a learned behavior. It's not something you can unlearn or turn off.

I visited, with a classmate, NYC while I was a cadet. We stayed with my female friend/classmate from high school; slept on her floor in sleeping bags, at Barnard College, an all women's school.

It was my first experience with co-ed restrooms. And let me tell you, I really did not like using the restroom with women (there are just some things I don't want to know, hear or imagine).... but if I had to shower with them... that would be too much. Luckily, nothing is gained from your suggestion. I never showered with my boss (and I don't shower with anyone from work) and yet somehow we do fine together.

We don't need to "re-write" our prejudices... they're there for a reason and they serve a purpose. (Guy with a ski mask in the bank.... AVOID) (Guy in a trench coat with naked legs preparing to open said trench coat .... LOOK AWAY)... we're judging them without knowing if the ski mask is because he's cold or the guy in a trench coat is in shorts.... but it keeps us alive.
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Two questions 1) Are you married?
2) will you be faithful to your wife under all curcumstances?

If the answers are yes than You have learned not think with what between your leg (or at least act on).

If you don't trust well dress politicians than you have started to overcome another prejudice of well dress people are "GOOD" people and poor dress people are "BAD" people.
 
Sexual assault is not about sex or attraction to someone that cannot be controlled. It's about power and using that power over someone to humiliate them. Until we understand that we're just talking in circles.
 
I'm confused where the need to reference Christcorp's religion came into the picture...
 
lightfoot said:
I'm confused where the need to reference Christcorp's religion came into the picture...
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I may have been too harsh, but I believe one or all of these verses covers it:

Leviticus 19:9-11(#1 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
9 " 'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 15:11(#2 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.

Psalm 82:3-4 (#3 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. 4 Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 14:31(#4 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
31 He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.

Proverbs 19:1 (#5 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
1 Better a poor man whose walk is blameless than a fool whose lips are perverse.

Proverbs 19:17(#6 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
17 He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done.

Proverbs 21:13(#7 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
13 If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered.

Proverbs 22:2 (#8 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
2 Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all.

Proverbs 29:7 (#9 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
7 The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern.

Job 30:25 (#10 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
25 Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?

Isaiah 61:1(#11 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners...

Jeremiah 22:16(#12 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD.

Zechariah 7:10(#13 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.'

Matthew 5:3(#14 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 25:37-40(#15 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Mark 10:21(#16 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 12:33(#17 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 14:12-14 (#18 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
12Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,14and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

1 Corinthians 13:3 (#19 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,but have not love, I gain nothing.

James 2:5 (#20 of 20 Bible Verses about the Poor)
5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?
 
Me too lightfoot!

I think this thread is on the verge of lockdown because it is now becoming personal.

XPOSTED with pathnottaken.

EDITING NOW.

MODS please lock this thread. I think we have gone too far with path's latest post. That last post is way off topic.
 
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