AFROTC Breakdown

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Aragundi, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Aragundi

    Aragundi Member

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    Hello again! Since I am already set on joining AF Det155 when going to college next semester I had a few questions? I know they'll probably explain this to me when I get there but I wanted to know if you kind hearted people can get me a head start? :smile:

    1.) I heard about how detachments are broken down such as flights and squadrons right? But in what order does it go and how many cadets in each level? For example, the obvious one would be the detachment where all the cadets are included, what's the next level and so on?

    2.) What leadership positions can you hold in each level? I know there are cadet ranks equal to that of a Lt. Col. and so on but how about lets say in a flight?

    3.) When I applied for my AFROTC scholarship, I put down Meteorology and Environmental Engineering as majors and I know those are where men are needed right now, however my first choice would be marketing. Let's say in theory I got awarded a scholarship in either Met. or Env. and I turned it down. How hard would it be to earn an in-campus scholarship and would me not being a tech major make me less competitive?

    I know I'm asking for a lot but I greatly appreciate the help! :thumb:
     
  2. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    The det is what would be equivalent to a squadron because unlike an ADAF wing, there won't be multiple squadrons. You will only have flights. Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, etc.

    Within each flight you will have a mixture of all ranks. They won't have one that is just C100 or one that is just C400s. They will be commanded by a flight commander, and an assistant flight commander.

    Jobs vary det by det for 100's, however, don't expect a big job your 1st semester because as a 100 you are learning the system. When you get to the C200 yr that is when you start taking the jobs like asst flight commander. As a 300 that is when you start getting jobs at the squadron level. As a 400 that is when you can become the CWC, CVWC.

    As far as trying again next yr. that can be risky, maybe even riskier now than it has ever been due to the sequestration issue at hand right now. It would be part of the FY14 budget, and nobody here knows what that budget will look like.

    Two yrs ago they did not offer any ISS. The board was cancelled due to budget reasons and cadets only found out that it was cancelled about 1 month prior to when it was scheduled to meet.

    Plus remember as a marketing major, it would be non-tech, and only about 15-20% of the ISS will be awarded to non-tech.

    Now to understand how high that cgpa has to be to get one of those scholarships, for SFT the cgpa is 3.3/3.4. The assumption than would be to get an ISS you really need to be in the 3.5+ cgpa. Easy to say, hard to do. Most colleges will require classes like Econ, Math, Sci and some form of Psych/Soc for every major. Econ and Psych are not the easy A classes that kids think they are. Probably because profs know kids think it is the easy A. A 3.5, is 4 As and 1 B, notice no Cs can fit into the formula to get that cgpa.

    You should major in what you like not because it will get you a scholarship. The fastest way to lose a scholarship or not commission in the AF via ROTC is hating the major and doing poorly academically.
     
  3. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    ??

    3.5 can be reached in a number of ways, depending on what value a school gives to B+ and A-:

    1.
    1 C
    4 A
    GPA is 1*2 + 4*4 = 18, divided by 5 is 3.6

    2.
    2 A
    2 B

    3.
    1 A
    1 A-
    1 B+
    1 B

    etc. If you're speaking of an entire academic year, you can even have a D grade and a B grade, so long as all the others are A grades.

    1 D
    1 B
    6 A

    28/8 = 3.5


    This all assumes that the classes have equal unit value.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  4. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Yeah...wouldn't 4A's and 1B = a 3.8 GPA
     
  5. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    An 18/19 credit is typical for tech, but not for non-tech because non-tech students don't take 4 credit classes. They take 3 credits, thus, the majority of them will take 5 classes at 3 credits, and 1 for LLAB.

    Our DS as a govt major did carry 18/19 credits, but that was because he was in the scholars program at his school, and they automatically had to take the scholars seminar, plus do an internship, which gave him the 18/19 varying each semester.

    Our DD is an education major, but started off as a Psych major, she takes @16, and only had 1 semester she took with 17, because they require Math and Sci., so those 2 classes were 4 credits each, her other 3 classes were 3 credits.

    Your assumption is each and every class is 4.0. Our DD currently is carrying 15 credits, but only 4 classes, 1 is 5 credits, 1 is 4, and 2 are 3 credits. He too is a non-tech major.

    I don't know anyone that can handle a 28 credit course load in 1 semester. Most colleges will not only charge you a fortune to go over 18-20 credits, but you need approval by the advisors.

    Now if you are saying 28 over a yr. There still is a problem because for the AFROTC 3 yr ISS, you apply and board after the 1st semester of your freshman yr. So if the D is in that 1st semester you will be in trouble.

    Also colleges vary regarding grading. Some will do the A+=4.0, A=3.8, A- = 3.6. Some will do actual percentage. 93 x 4.0 = 3.72, there is no + or -, just pure grade. At DS1 school they took out his cgpa to the 1/1000th. i.e. 3.721 = 3.72, 3.725 = 3.73. I know that for a fact because he had to carry with his merit scholarship at all times a 3.20. One semester it was 3.194 and they rounded it to 3.19, and placed him on academic probation for his scholarship. I was floored and to this day remember saying are you flipping kidding me?

    We never looked at the fine print, and it did indeed say 3.20 not 3.2. It didn't say cgpa, it said gpa. This is a kid who got a 3.6 the semester prior, and now they were telling him that one more semester at 3.19, even though the cgpa would be above 3.20, it would be revoked. He never ever did it again. I think the lowest after that was a 3.34.

    The point still isn't about how you get to that 3.5, it is academically you can be that 3.8 uwcgpa with all APs, but that fall freshman semester is not HS, and don't expect that you will be able to maintain a 3.8.

    Our rule of thumb in our home is simple:
    1. No Fs
    2. 3.0 gpa.

    Get a C in one class, you better have an A in another. We understand that each of them have academic strengths and weaknesses. Our DD is not mathematically gifted, it comes with tons of studying, whereas English she doesn't need to crack a book open. Our boys are the opposite. It is okay to get a C in your weak subjects.

    I can't stress hard enough that for AFROTC as a non-tech major, a 3.3/3.4 is mid range. SFT selects @60% and 3.3/3.4 has been the avg cgpa for non-techs. No SFT= No commissioning.

    If that cgpa is the avg., and ISSP offer less scholarships than HSSP, it does not take a lot to follow the trail to realize 3.5 might not cut it, and a 3.6 might be the cusp.

    AFROTC really truly places a lot on wanting STEM majors. When our DS was a C400 and saw the incoming stats of the C100s HSSP recipients he said to us, if I applied against them as a non-tech, I am pretty sure I wouldn't have received a scholarship.

    There was a poster here, her DS went to a magnet school, had great stats, and he got the TWE. He eventually got an ISS as a freshman.

    Finally, one thing for anyone that is contemplating this path if they get the TWE for HSSP. Please, please, please, keep taking the SAT/ACT until you graduate.

    AFROTC only uses best sitting, but for some their best sitting goes up because their academic classes are still building that foundation, and for others they have learned how to take the test.

    That SAT/ACT will be part of your SFT board selection score. The avg SAT for scholarships range between 1270-1350 best sitting. They will be your competition, and if you have 1220, plus are non-tech, you are playing catch up with PFT, and Commander recs.

    It is why many cadets join AAS, Angel, Silver Wings, Honor Guard because all of those organizations have Cadre advisors and now they are not a name only, they have a face too. Their advisors know them from another side. They can see it differently.

    The thing with AFROTC which is totally different from AROTC is that C200 yr. SFT is the LDAC equivalent, but the difference is if not selected for SFT as a 200, they can be dis-enrolled at that point. If not selected the CoC can allow them to become a 500, but the problem is they are what the AD world calls Above Zone, and statistically it can become even harder to get the slot. CoCs only do this now if they are willing to stick their neck out with AFROTCHQ because of the DoD budget for ROTC. They are O6s they know the system.

    AF is the smallest of the 3 ROTC branches. They require AD, there is no Reserve/Guard option, thus they have to have that cut yr. Planning 4 yrs out is difficult, but 2 yrs out is easier, and thus the C200 make or break.
     
  6. Packer

    Packer Member

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    1 A + 1 B = 3.5 assuming both classes carry the same number of credits.

    A 3.5 is a very good college gpa but not as difficult as Pima implies.
     
  7. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Packer,

    Than my kids are slackers regarding carrying a 3.5. I am very proud of them, and I don't think they ever carried an easy course load. Their overall cgpa over yrs was not 3.5 semester after semester. DS1 commissioned LY, DD is a jr in college now. They didn't attend a safety school, but a match/reach. I only say that because I agree a 3.5 at a safety is easy. Ivies, knowing that for freshmen who never received a B in HS give only pass/fail for some classes because they don't want them mentally losing it when they get a D.

    I would love to see from posters what their kids are carrying for their cgpa after 1-2 yrs.

    The idea to me that a 3.5 is easy equates IMPO attending a safety school with a safety major. Kids getting into reaches, will have to fight for their grades. Are you really saying a 3.5 at MIT is a snap?

    Let's be honest, if a 3.5 is easy than why are ROTC scholarships only demanding a 2.5 to maintain the scholarship?

    I thought we were hard by demanding a 3.0 from our kids, obviously we need to the raise the bar academically.

    OBTW I really would love an answer from posters that think a 3.5 is easy why ROTC scholarships require only a 2.5? Aren't we as taxpayers paying for academic slackers like my kids that carry only a 3.2-3.4?

    If it is so easy why 2.5, why not 3.0 at least? Maybe because 3.5 in college is not easy, especially with ROTC.

    Honestly, Kinnem, dinninla, aglahad, nick4060, Ohioparent, agagles, -Bull-, Marist and Clarkson, please post. I am betting my Myrtle, 3.5 is not common. I am betting 3.0 overall is common.

    Congrats to your kid Packer for having a 3.5. That is not facetious, that is awe and respect to your child.

    Now back on topic to the OP's question. Switching to non-tech from tech will require a stronger cgpa.

    More importantly, we don't know if the sequestration can will be kicked down the road for FY14 as an ISS applicant. You are risking that maybe next yr will be like 2010(?) when they did not have an ISS selection board.

    As you know meteorology majors are considered critically manned. You WILL serve 4 yrs ADAF in that field.

    You don't know, come October with 4-6 weeks in you might love it, and be very happy.

    Why marketing? What career do you want? Public Affairs or rated?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  8. Packer

    Packer Member

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    Pima, I have no interest in picking a fight with you and am certainly not trying too. I said a 3.5 is a very good college gpa. However, a 3.5 while difficult is significantly easier to obtain than 4 A's and 1 B.
     
  9. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Since you asked.

    Older son had a 3.50 at the end of his Junior year which included 3 C's. He graduated with a 3.52.

    Younger son has completed 3 semesters, no C's and has a 3.72, he will be the first to admit it's a BS in a non tech major.

    Let's not start a long debate on Safety Schools and how they must be inferior.

    I agree with Packer, while 3,5 is a very good GPA, in the end it's an even credit hour split of A's and B's.

    I don't think anyone is saying that a 3.5 is easy. ROTC has to set a Minimum GPA, they chose 2.5. I'm sure everyone would agree that if you only keep the minimum, you would have much fewer opportunities.
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I am also not wanting to pick a fight either.

    I am only saying from my perspective a 3.5 with only 1 semester as a freshman is not a cake walk even if you pulled a rigorous course load in HS.

    Kids can't wait to fly the nest. They have their foot on our butts when we move them into their dorms. They want to start life. ALL is GREAT.

    6 weeks later and true reality being set in, things/perspectives change. They actually miss us parents.

    College is not HS. HS as a sr. you know everyone. You know the teachers. You have a social circle.

    College is a new slate. You might not know anyone. You don't know the profs. You have a new social circle. You now have ROTC too.

    All of this impacts a kid. The assumption that every kid can bridge from HS to college, and in the AFROTC scholarship world is not true.

    HONESTLY, there is an answer that the OP asked and has yet to be answered, and IMPO something that is the most important question

    My guess, and I know nothing from a board respective would be YES!

    Why give you a scholarship as an ISS if you turned down the HSSP already?

    We, as posters, IMPHO got wrapped up in BS. We lost sight of the OP.

    Want to fight out the gpa method? Want to fight out the mins? I bit off and played that too.

    Now lets get our egos out of the way and answer the OP's question. Let's be honest what cgpa he will need as a non-tech ISS applicant for AFROTC
     
  11. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Huh?
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Jcleppe,

    What is the huh?

    You, me, and others are arguing how to determine the gpa, but the OP is about AFROTC scholarship as a non-tech,

    Are you saying to the OP that for AFROTC scholarships as a non-tech it isn't a minority or 15-20% of all HSSP?

    Are you saying that ISSP for AFROTC won't take into consideration non-tech
    ~BIGGER YET, he declined an HSSP!

    Do you know what the avg cgpa for SFT for AFROTC?

    Hence, let's get our egos out of the way regarding 1 A + 1 B or 4 As and 1 C. BS! Let's take the AFROTC perspective, not our opinions aka stats/

    The OP needs to get the fact that for AFROTC 15-20% go Non-Tech, and when the non-tech SFT cadets hold a 3.3/3.4 they need a stronger cgpa than Tech for a scholarship.

    The OP is not going AROTC or NROTC. They are going AFROTC, non-tech.
     
  13. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    Yes, I agree with that completely. When a senior HS student is trying to decide between a reach, a match, and a safety for college, the expected GPA at each will be different for that same student, and one of the factors to assess. Assuming equal effort at each, and that the school exercises some grade discipline with a curve, the same student can have a 3.7 at Safety, 3.3 at match, and 2.9 at reach. Subtract .3 for Engineering, .2 for Math/Science.
     
  14. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    ^^^^^
    Well, I certainly can't speak directly to AFROTC but I can speak to NROTC MO. The Marines don't care what your major is... it could be Basket Weaving with High Desert Plants with a concentration in cactus fiber. Autumn of '11 the average cgpa for an in-school scholarship winner was 3.55. I can also add that my DS's cgpa this past fall when awarded a scholarship was 3.6. I have no insight into Navy Option but I am confident the winners there, who I'm sure were mostly tech, was probably .2 - .3 points lower. If we think of these two communities as non-tech vs tech (which isn't entirely accurate for either group, but close) then one might extrapolate that you need at least something very close to a 3.5 cgpa to get an AFROTC scholarship as a non-tech. Of course this is all extrapolation and guesswork while comparing apples to oranges. Far more than cgpa will come into play in the awarding of a scholarship.

    As far as how hard it is to get that cgpa? Well clearly it varies with class load, courses taken, and even the particular professors teaching the classes. But I don't think you need to be academically gifted to get that cgpa. It's best done by simply staying on top of your course work and keeping your nose to the grindstone. I know that is how my son does it because, trust me, he is not academically gifted and at least in high school, was not blessed with good study habits. One final factor in obtaining the desired cgpa is motivation... and kids earnestly chasing a scholarship and commission are definitely motivated.

    Just my $0.02.
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    kinnem.

    AFROTC gives a sheaat regarding the major.,

    The OP is going AFROTC route and basket weaving compared to meteorology is going to be a factor not only for scholarship, but also for career path. Rated won't be a choice or an option.

    I respect the posts from non-AFROTC posters, but the fact and reality is there is no blanket statement. Each branch is unique.
     
  16. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Well you asked for opinions so I gave mine. I was also on the tech vs non-tech path which is what you seemed to be on. And we have no idea if the OP wants to go rated, nor was what comes after commissioning involved in the question... simply how hard is it to get an in-school scholarship with a non-tech major. Kind of sorry I chimed in to try to support your point about a 3.5 GPA. But thanks for slapping me around and setting me straight. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    One student's Reach School is another student's Safety School, it's all relative to the student.

    I guess we should just tell students that their efforts and GPA's are worthless if they didn't come from an Ivy or equivalent . This debate is ridicules. A good GPA comes from hard work and dedication, it doesn't matter what school they attend, students have to adapt to the situation.
     
  18. GemStateMom

    GemStateMom Member

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    Hi Pima. DS - a 200- (3.85 HS unweighted GPA), is somewhere around a cumulative 3.0 right now (which causes us concern, as he has a non-tech major). His ROTC extra-curricular activities take up A LOT of time. Also, even though he is non-tech, his particular major is also pretty demanding as far as time. I can see where a cadet with a major not so demanding and who is not super engaged in the ROTC program could pull higher grades a little easier. This also applies to cadets who are a little more "academically gifted" and/or very good with time management (unlike DS, I suspect). So, IMHO, a 3.5 is not always easy.....
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  19. Aragundi

    Aragundi Member

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    Sorry for getting back to you guys so late, I was busy finishing up some assignments as the 1st semester for us ends tomorrow! As to the question why marketing, my plan was if cut from the AF as they are cutting down on men or just not my thing, to have a business degree to fall back on. I don't know if that's a smart thing to do and would love any and all input!

    As to whether I'm going for a rated job or not I'm going for non-rated. Mainly because rated slots are highly competitive from what I heard and I don't qualify medically for those slots except that of maybe the ABM. I was actually wanting to go the route of the highly selective STO's and becoming a combat controller. If that didn't work out as planned I wanted to fall back on Command and Control, that's possible right?

    As to what you were saying Pima, let's say theoretically I receive a scholarship for meteorology and I took it. I know I am allowed to walk away from the program before my sophomore year without penalty since I am not contracted, would it be possible to walk away from the actual scholarship but stay in the ROTC program in the hopes of another job?

    Also thanks for all the info it's very helpful! Very glad I found this forum with such knowledgeable adults!
     
  20. jbsail

    jbsail Member

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    Aragundi,

    Go for what you want, if its marketing now or Soph year, do it. One of the times I met up with a buddy that went ROTC (state univ), he had a classmate with him that majored in Marketing. He did well and is doing well. So no big deal. It will work out if you love what you do and have guts to do it.

    I know way too many messed up classmates that went into eng and chemistry, because their parents thought thats what to do.

    GemStateMom, He may just have the 'Sophomore Slump' (LOL)...needs a few care packages from mom to dig him out.

    and yes, I'm with you and Prima, 3.5 is tough. A lot of grade inflation in high schools. Most parents may not realize high school teachers may be making it easy for your kids. I don't think 3.8 may mean that much.


     

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