Army ROTC increasing interest in STEM (Science, Tech, Eng, Math) majors

[Pima]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you stated and yet I also view it differently. Obviously the Army has figured a way to branch giving edges to engineering like your DS's friend.

I am not saying major in a tech field if you hate math and science. I am saying that technology is here to stay, and the military wants to be competitive.

Look at our hardware, be it AF, Navy or Army it is technologically driven filled with tons of computer chips. Logically, the assumption would be that the tech major with an engineering background would be a better fit than the business major in Econ when it comes to the system.

For the AF, they are like the Army, your college degree will not stop you from going rated, however, if you do not have an engineering degree you will not be able to even apply for Test Pilot School. Another reason why some go tech.

I don't think a major will define your ability to lead, I think that is about the person's ability to communicate and their own inherent traits.

Let's be real, as you stated, the military is going to train you, and for many their major is never going to be utilized during their career. Bullet majored in engineering with a minor in physical science. He flew for 21 yrs, and now works on the 35...nothing he has done since 1987 would be classified as an "engineer" position. However, because he had that math/science background I do believe it gave him an edge regarding the requirements for his job.

Curiosity here. The way AFROTC works is they have rated and non-rated boards. If you want to fly you go to the rated board, and if not picked up you than submit your non-rated choices. They are 2 separate boards held months apart...rated for 12 got theirs back in Mar., non-rated results will be released Oct 1. Does the Army do that? Or do they all go up at once?

 

[Jcleppe]

I agree that it's a lot more than their major. DS decided to go the CE route because he loves math and science, and at some point in his life he wants to have the degree (and most likely a grad degree) in a field he finds interesting and rewarding. As far as his ability to lead, after everyone got to know each other he was chose to be squad leader the first time the did FLRC's. His squad was the only one to complete things on time without any point deductions. He is also one of the tops for new cadets for PT, and his goal before the end of his freshman year is 300+ and already well on his way there. Does PT 4 times a week, extra cardio workouts and hits the weight room 4-5 times per week. Doing very well in all of his classes so far, which is great because he's carrying 18 credit hours plus a 1 hour required course that you get no credit for. Really got his act together his senior year of HS in terms of time management and organization skills. Those, if you can teach to others, will also help you be a great leader because the others gain something very tangible from it.

You hit the nail on the head.

Your son is working towards a CE degree because of his love of math and science, this is so important for engineering students, so many go for the wrong reasons. My younger son tends to live by the motto "I was led to believe there would be no Math involved", he can do it, he just doesn't like it. Engineering was not an option for him.

Isn't it great to see our kids finally get those management skills down, that in itself helps them become a great leader and teacher. Sounds like your son is doing great, congrats to him. Mine is at the Rec almost every day after PT working to get that 300 as well, 20 points to go. He is carrying 19 credits as well. When we dropped him off at school I told him that I missed college, that was until I saw his class load of course.

Good luck to your son, it will be a fun 4 years watching them progress. I have an older son that is a MS4, it has been a lot of hard work and very time consuming but he has loved every bit of it.

 

[Jcleppe]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you stated and yet I also view it differently. Obviously the Army has figured a way to branch giving edges to engineering like your DS's friend.

I am not saying major in a tech field if you hate math and science. I am saying that technology is here to stay, and the military wants to be competitive.

Look at our hardware, be it AF, Navy or Army it is technologically driven filled with tons of computer chips. Logically, the assumption would be that the tech major with an engineering background would be a better fit than the business major in Econ when it comes to the system.

For the AF, they are like the Army, your college degree will not stop you from going rated, however, if you do not have an engineering degree you will not be able to even apply for Test Pilot School. Another reason why some go tech.

I don't think a major will define your ability to lead, I think that is about the person's ability to communicate and their own inherent traits.

Let's be real, as you stated, the military is going to train you, and for many their major is never going to be utilized during their career. Bullet majored in engineering with a minor in physical science. He flew for 21 yrs, and now works on the 35...nothing he has done since 1987 would be classified as an "engineer" position. However, because he had that math/science background I do believe it gave him an edge regarding the requirements for his job.

Curiosity here. The way AFROTC works is they have rated and non-rated boards. If you want to fly you go to the rated board, and if not picked up you than submit your non-rated choices. They are 2 separate boards held months apart...rated for 12 got theirs back in Mar., non-rated results will be released Oct 1. Does the Army do that? Or do they all go up at once?

Sorry I highlighted the whole quote. Architects are terrible at computers unless we're drawing something.

I do not believe the Army has a separate board for pilots through ROTC. I am not sure how it works for those already in service that apply for Aviation.

If a cadet wants the opportunity to branch Aviation they are required to take the AFAST and complete a Flight Physical prior to the end of LDAC the summer after their junior year. Once they pass the AFAST and physical they are allowed to request Aviation as their branch choice. at that point it is simply their placement on the OML that will determine whether they get Aviation, there is no separate board for Aviation at that point.

My son unfortunatly did not complete everything last summer, he decided on Aviation after his CTLT at the end of the summer. Some quick work on the PMS (an Aviation Officer), and some luck in getting the physicals he was bale to get everything in by the deadline, now he just waits. The OML listings will be out towards the end of Sept. they will know where they all stand. The branches will be assigned by the end of Oct. for all branches including Aviation. If a cadet is in the to 10% of the AD OML they will get their first pick, after that you just keep your fingers crossed. Son's scores have placed him in the top 10% the past 3 years, he is hoping that follows suit this year, if not he should be close and has a decent shot at Aviation. The waiting can be stressful as I'm sure your son can agree.

 

[Pima]

I am going to assume the AFAST, is what the AF calls TBAS (Basic Air Skills), and only given to those who apply for rated...it is about a 90 minute test.

They don't take the flight physical until they are selected...that is another reason for the delay between boards. They send them for a 3 day physical during the summer before sr yr. and if they fail it, but are still Q for AD they go to non-rated.

Curiosity...do they constantly know their OML on a national level, or are you saying that it is done school by school? In other words he could be 15% at their school, 10% nationally, but since he is not top 10% at his school, he is out of luck.

I find it interesting to learn how each branch operates.

 

[MNDad2015]

Jcleppe,

Thanks! Sounds like things are going great for both of your DS's as well. Glad to hear the younger is taking full advantage of the rec facilities. Mine got into a dorm very close to the main one, both for a quick jog to PT at O'wee 100 hours 4x per week as well as spending a much of his little spare time working out.

Again, spot on with the math and science. Pursue a degree that involves things for which you have a passion. As for AROTC (or any ROTC program), have a special passion for that, for it's the beginning of what might be a long journey for those who started down that path because they want to serve their country and not just pay for an education.

As for wanting to branch in an area that seems counter-intuitive with the major, I agree from the surface but then understand when you know the reason why. DS's goal is to branch infantry, as his ultimate goal is Army Rangers. Scares the heck out of me already, but watching him grow and mature, knowing his physical, psychological and emotional demeanor, etc. gives me 100% confidence to support him.

Anxious to hear Sunday how things go with his first FTX this weekend. Know the MSI's are their to support the MSIII's and II's in developing their leadership skills, but they do other things that I know he enjoys.

 

[Aglahad]

God help us if the Army were to go to a 50/50 split with tech-non tech.

I work closely with engineers, I respect their abilities and knowledge of their field, but to be honest I wouldn't trust half of them to lead their way out of the building. We have had long discussions about the military since I have 2 son's going that direction and many joke that they would get lost or left behind because they would try to over engineer the situation.

To be effective if the Army were to follow the Navy regarding tech degrees they would need to change the way they do branching. As it is now it is entirely based on the OML. If the army starts requiring tech degrees they will need to find a way to make sure those cadets branch to a field that needs that education.

The Army Corps of Engineers is staffed primarily by civilian engineers, there are some military just not close to the number of civilians, and as it stands now there is no direct pipeline for an engineering grad to go straight to the Corps of Engineers.

Aglahad,

You are a senior in college and have not yet strayed past the confines of school and ROTC. You find things will be different then yo expect. While I agree that for the most part the degree you choose will have little bearing on your branch unless you are Jag or Medical, but to say that degrees like History, Political Science and other Liberal Arts will bring nothing to the table is naive. A history major that studies mainly Middle eastern and Asian history and a Political Science that studies International politics will have much to offer when deployed and there skills will be needed just as those that are engineers.

I majored in Architecture, before I went to my first ship I barely knew the stern from the bow. After systems training I could operate all the systems without a glitch, what I studied in school was no help at all. I just needed to be able to work the system, not build it, civilians did that just fine.

Another thing to remember, in the Army most of the maintenance on equipment is done by enlisted and Warrant, not officers, they all seem to do just fine with the specialized training they receive.

I am in no way saying that there is not a need for tech majors, just that it is not a good idea to push towards the levels the Navy does. The Army needs a balance of all educations and strengths, to start eliminating non tech majors will leave a big gap in the Army. The Army is not the Navy or the Air Force, the mission is different, they are much more up close and personal and will need officers from every educational background, yes even History and Political Science as well as Philosophy and others.

Like I said before, any degree has its use in the military and I am not downgrading non-science based majors. My personal interest/hobby is history and geopolitical issues hence why I have taken a lot of my own to time to read, take classes and do my own research. It was just an observation and opinion that I have conjured after interacting with many officers and possibly at this point hundreds of the army's 2nd and 1st LTs. Most of the information learned in college will never apply to anything in the army NO matter you major in (except medical...JAG... as you stated) As for the Navy and AF, yes they do have more technical fields yet there is also a large contingency of non-technical surface warfare and supply admin officers positions within both branches. Not everything in the AF/Navy is aviation, nuclear and sonar/radar technology.

I don't see how 50/50 is a unacceptable quota for the army...50% math, biological science, physical/chemical science, health sciences and engineering and the other 50% humanities, social science and behavioral studies etc. Allotting these quotas makes for a more educationally diverse army. 5 biology majors and 94 English (nor 100% science) majors won't help the army think tank. ALL majors have a place in the army, but there should be discretion in terms of scholarship handling.

Actually, most of the maintenance and overhauls done in the army are done now by civilian contractors. The Bradley and Abrams we had were all fixed by 4 separate contractors. Oil changes and general maintenance was done by junior enlisted who had a never even cracked open the actual maintenance book beyond basic issue inventory. Officers sign for the vehicles and need to have working knowledge of what they are signing for beyond a part list.

You are right I do not have the tangible real world experience necessary to discern what would make the best composition for the army and I do realize an army full of engineers would implode within a week. However, I have been around this OML/104-R system as well as ROTC long enough to know the system is broken. Hearing cadets around me tell me they chose general studies or sports management because it was easy OML points is just not right...for the army or themselves. BY ALL MEANS do what you love or enjoy just think responsibly. If I wasn't in my career path I would of definitely chosen history/anth or poly sci because I thoroughly enjoy reading and learning those disciplines of thought. The outside jobs just aren't available.

 

[Jcleppe]

I am going to assume the AFAST, is what the AF calls TBAS (Basic Air Skills), and only given to those who apply for rated...it is about a 90 minute test.

They don't take the flight physical until they are selected...that is another reason for the delay between boards. They send them for a 3 day physical during the summer before sr yr. and if they fail it, but are still Q for AD they go to non-rated.

Curiosity...do they constantly know their OML on a national level, or are you saying that it is done school by school? In other words he could be 15% at their school, 10% nationally, but since he is not top 10% at his school, he is out of luck.

I find it interesting to learn how each branch operates.

No, cadets do not constantly know their place on the national OML. There are 2 OML's, one is national and one is by battalion. The cadets usually know each year their ranking on the battalion OML. The national OML is only done at the beginning of their senior year. The cadets placement on the battalion OML is just part of the points available for their overall national OML placement.

When I spoke of the top 10% I was referring to the national AD OML. Cadet Command compiles a complete OML of all the cadets in the nation, they then place an Active Duty cut off line, that leaves them with the AD National OML. The top 10% of that OML gets their first pick, anyone below that line will wait until the branches are assigned to see what they get off their wish list, their placement on the battalion OML does not factor in once the national OML is completed.

This year's group of MS4's at my son's school were very good, several have the possibility of being in the top 10% nationally. My son's battalion is a smaller one with 15 MS4's commissioning this year. Only one cadet would be in the top 10% of the battalion OML but for branching that will have no baring, only the national OML counts.

On a side note.

The AFAST sounds similar to the TBAS, but the Army requires the Flight Physical upfront. Funny thing about the AFAST, my son told me he scored well on all the flight aspects and Helo Physics, the part he said he scored lower on was the Background and Personal Information section. I guess he answered wrong the question..."Would you rather go out for Pizza or pop a friends blister" I kid you not, that was one of the questions, personally Pizza sounds better.

 

[dunninla]

do they [Army ROTC cadets] constantly know their OML on a national level?

What jcleppe wrote. The 4 weeks at LDAC prior to MSI year are critical in establishing the National OML.. so National OML isn't released until well after the 11 4 week LDACs completed.

 

[dunninla]

Cadet Command compiles a complete OML of all the cadets in the nation, they then place an Active Duty cut off line, that leaves them with the AD National OML. The top 10% of that OML gets their first pick

Ahh, didn't know that top 10% meant top 10% of the subgroup above the AD line... which is probably top 6% of the entire cohort currently, and probably top 4% in a couple of years when the AD cutoff line allows only 40% to go AD. ... interesting.

 

[Jcleppe]

What jcleppe wrote. The 4 weeks at LDAC prior to MSI year are critical in establishing the National OML.. so National OML isn't released until well after the 11 4 week LDACs completed.

I think you meant to say "prior to MS4 year".

 

[Jcleppe]

Ahh, didn't know that top 10% meant top 10% of the subgroup above the AD line... which is probably top 6% of the entire cohort currently, and probably top 4% in a couple of years when the AD cutoff line allows only 40% to go AD. ... interesting.

The top 10% of the AD OML shouldn't change much since there will always be a large group of cadets that select the Reserves and National Guard each year. Those that are below whatever the cut off line would not have been in the top 10% anyway.

There will be one thing that will effect the percentages. Last year they filled their recruitment mission with about 2600 AD which meant the top 10% totaled 260. If the AD line is raised and just for arguments sake the new cut off is 2000 AD then of course that will lower the top 10% to 200.

This is just a wild guess but since ROTC scholarships have been looked at a bit more as a way to pay for college, some PMS's are predicting a larger group of cadets will opt for reserves, of course the economy will play into that prediction in the next 3 years.

 

[Pima]

I agree the economy will play into that equation, because a paycheck is a paycheck, and with high unemployment I would think many will opt to go AD.

It is interesting because for AFROTC, they don't get their OML from the equivalent of LDAC = SFT. SFT is a % of the OML, but so is the commander's rec, and the TBAS score for rated, plus, AFOQT, PFT and gpa.

In essence, they don't know what their OML is precisely until they go up for the board, CC's do a review of the cadet's packet with them prior to submission. Like AROTC they do know their det OML every semester, but not the national. Upon completion of SFT, they will have a better idea because prior to leaving they are reviewed there and told where they stood in their group. I.E. DG, top 1%, top 10%, top 30%, top 50%, other frown. Basically, a cadet that may want to go to UPT, but graduates the bottom 50% knows it is almost all, but over for their chances, even with a great TBAS. Actually, 30% marker is placing someone in the questionable line and again they would have to hit the PFT, AFOQT, gpa and TBAS on a high end.

Also, the AF does not send everyone to SFT, only about 50% go, and if not selected you may either become a C250 or worse yet have your scholarship revoked, so it would be hard to get a real national OML for them.

Curious, how do they get kids to do the 3 day flight physical while they are in school, do they schedule it over spring break? The way DS's timeline worked was. TBAS in Dec. Board met in Feb. Results a month later. Flight physical scheduled for June. They bring them in groups of about 100 each. Physical results released in July.

If you do not get pilot, you don't do the 3 day physical. If you do not get rated than you start it all over again, submitting your top 3 picks for non-rated and meet the Sept board, receiving your AFSC in Oct.

This yr I believe it was the highest in yrs for rated. Basically everyone that asked for rated got rated, not necessarily pilot though, some got nav, CSO (fighter nav=WSO) or ABM. (Air Battle).

Many are taking this as a good sign for AFROTC that they are at the end of the overmanning issue for AF.

 

[dunninla]

Last year they filled their recruitment mission with about 2600 AD which meant the top 10% totaled 260. If the AD line is raised and just for arguments sake the new cut off is 2000 AD then of course that will lower the top 10% to 200.

that's EXACTLY the direction I hear it's heading.. from 60% AD to 40% AD over the next 2-3 years. I would be very curious to know how the YG 2011 from this past May broke out between Scholarship and non-Scholarship cadets... did the Scholarship cadets, in the end, prove the efficacy of the Scholarship Selection Boards? Or did the OML contain equal representation of Scholarship and non-Scholarship in equal proportions to their % of the overall year group? Let me try to phrase that better: If 35% of the Year Group were Scholarship, were 35% of the top 10% Scholarship, or was the % higher or lower?

 

[Pima]

I doubt there are stats for that since scholarship is not a part of the process. It is hard enough to find stats for HSSP recipients, finding stats for scholarship v non-scholarship when it is not a part of the equation, IMPO would be near impossible.

More so for the Army since some take the scholarship with the thought they will not go AD and in these economic times that is a huge game changer.

Everyone here, for every branch will tell you, once in the unit, scholarship/no-scholarship has no impact regarding racking and stacking for OML.

Granted many scholarship because of the gpa min, may have an edge, but flipside is many that didn't get it, but want to be an officer are driven more to prove they made a mistake by not offering a scholarship.

 

[Ohio2015Parent]

Granted many scholarship because of the gpa min, may have an edge, but flipside is many that didn't get it, but want to be an officer are driven more to prove they made a mistake by not offering a scholarship.

NOTHING has motivated DS like NOT being awarded an AROTC scholarship. In the long run, CC may have done him a huge favor. Time will tell.

 

[Aglahad]

I agree the economy will play into that equation, because a paycheck is a paycheck, and with high unemployment I would think many will opt to go AD.

It is interesting because for AFROTC, they don't get their OML from the equivalent of LDAC = SFT. SFT is a % of the OML, but so is the commander's rec, and the TBAS score for rated, plus, AFOQT, PFT and gpa.

In essence, they don't know what their OML is precisely until they go up for the board, CC's do a review of the cadet's packet with them prior to submission. Like AROTC they do know their det OML every semester, but not the national. Upon completion of SFT, they will have a better idea because prior to leaving they are reviewed there and told where they stood in their group. I.E. DG, top 1%, top 10%, top 30%, top 50%, other frown. Basically, a cadet that may want to go to UPT, but graduates the bottom 50% knows it is almost all, but over for their chances, even with a great TBAS. Actually, 30% marker is placing someone in the questionable line and again they would have to hit the PFT, AFOQT, gpa and TBAS on a high end.

Also, the AF does not send everyone to SFT, only about 50% go, and if not selected you may either become a C250 or worse yet have your scholarship revoked, so it would be hard to get a real national OML for them.

Curious, how do they get kids to do the 3 day flight physical while they are in school, do they schedule it over spring break? The way DS's timeline worked was. TBAS in Dec. Board met in Feb. Results a month later. Flight physical scheduled for June. They bring them in groups of about 100 each. Physical results released in July.

If you do not get pilot, you don't do the 3 day physical. If you do not get rated than you start it all over again, submitting your top 3 picks for non-rated and meet the Sept board, receiving your AFSC in Oct.

This yr I believe it was the highest in yrs for rated. Basically everyone that asked for rated got rated, not necessarily pilot though, some got nav, CSO (fighter nav=WSO) or ABM. (Air Battle).

Many are taking this as a good sign for AFROTC that they are at the end of the overmanning issue for AF.

Well for ARTOC LDAC is only a part of the OML, MS3 instructor/PMS rankings, PT, extra currics and major all factor in. The flight physical is USUALLY done at in-processing during LDAC. Everyone walks around with their nifty eye protectors, its kind of funny.

 

[Jcleppe]

I doubt there are stats for that since scholarship is not a part of the process. It is hard enough to find stats for HSSP recipients, finding stats for scholarship v non-scholarship when it is not a part of the equation, IMPO would be near impossible.

More so for the Army since some take the scholarship with the thought they will not go AD and in these economic times that is a huge game changer.

Everyone here, for every branch will tell you, once in the unit, scholarship/no-scholarship has no impact regarding racking and stacking for OML.

Granted many scholarship because of the gpa min, may have an edge, but flipside is many that didn't get it, but want to be an officer are driven more to prove they made a mistake by not offering a scholarship.

I see mentioned a lot the fact that scholarship/no scholarship makes no difference once you join the battalion. While this is true in how the cadets interact with each other there are differences that occur during the freshman year. Scholarships don't have an effect, being contracted does. For a freshman the only way you can be contracted is to be on a scholarship, SMP's contract the beginning of their sophomore year, and non scholarship/non SMP cadets contract the beginning of their junior year.

Some battalions do not issue complete uniforms and gear to non contracted cadets. My son asked about CULP this summer and they told the freshman that only contracted cadets will be able to apply and attend, that may just be battalion specific, I'm not sure. The contracted freshman will be added to the upperclass squads for FTX while non contracted will train separately with the MS1 instructor. This all may just be again battalion specific, but it does show that some battalions have different methods.

When looking at schools and ROTC programs this would be a good question to ask. Of course everything could change when your son/daughter starts school only to find they have a new PMS and everything changes again.

 

[educateme]

I got the same impression as Jcleppe. Contracting is a requirement for a lot of things that will give a cadet an edge. Certainly seems to be the case my son's battalion.

So, scholarship is not just money for this reason. It give you early advantages. Of course, this does not mean the non-scholarship students will not be able to stand out in the end, but they are disadvantaged in this manner, and may need just to work that much harder in the upcoming competitive years with lower headcounts for AD and competitive commissioning outcomes.

 

[patentesq]

I see mentioned a lot the fact that scholarship/no scholarship makes no difference once you join the battalion. While this is true in how the cadets interact with each other there are differences that occur during the freshman year. Scholarships don't have an effect, being contracted does. For a freshman the only way you can be contracted is to be on a scholarship, SMP's contract the beginning of their sophomore year, and non scholarship/non SMP cadets contract the beginning of their junior year.

Some battalions do not issue complete uniforms and gear to non contracted cadets. My son asked about CULP this summer and they told the freshman that only contracted cadets will be able to apply and attend, that may just be battalion specific, I'm not sure. The contracted freshman will be added to the upperclass squads for FTX while non contracted will train separately with the MS1 instructor. This all may just be again battalion specific, but it does show that some battalions have different methods.

When looking at schools and ROTC programs this would be a good question to ask. Of course everything could change when your son/daughter starts school only to find they have a new PMS and everything changes again.

This is not the case for ROTC students at SMCs.

 

[MNDad2015]

I see mentioned a lot the fact that scholarship/no scholarship makes no difference once you join the battalion. While this is true in how the cadets interact with each other there are differences that occur during the freshman year. Scholarships don't have an effect, being contracted does. For a freshman the only way you can be contracted is to be on a scholarship, SMP's contract the beginning of their sophomore year, and non scholarship/non SMP cadets contract the beginning of their junior year.

Some battalions do not issue complete uniforms and gear to non contracted cadets. My son asked about CULP this summer and they told the freshman that only contracted cadets will be able to apply and attend, that may just be battalion specific, I'm not sure. The contracted freshman will be added to the upperclass squads for FTX while non contracted will train separately with the MS1 instructor. This all may just be again battalion specific, but it does show that some battalions have different methods.

When looking at schools and ROTC programs this would be a good question to ask. Of course everything could change when your son/daughter starts school only to find they have a new PMS and everything changes again.

I'll be interested in seeing how things work out with DS, as he's a 3AD. Already know that in terms of uniform and gear he's all squared away (good thing they gave him a locker at the armory so that he has room in his dorm closet for clothes). First FTX this weekend, will see what that was like in terms of 4YS, non-scholarship, non-contracted and the rest.

The one thing I do know is that DS is doing this because it's the college he wants to be at, both in terms of getting an education and being a cadet in their AROTC battalion, and after commissoning serving the U.S. in whatever capacity they ask him to. Yeah, might be biased because I'm his Dad, but I'm proud of him.