BAD Norwich Research Results

Discussion in 'Publicly and Privately Funded Military Colleges' started by alexkrills9, Mar 5, 2013.

  1. alexkrills9

    alexkrills9 Member

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    So in my search for a Senior Military College i came across Norwich University in Vermont. Up until this time, it was a strong consideration but now im second guessing myself. I read on multiple sites and read tons of student reviews and almost all of them were negative saying anything from the campus was awful to the Corps of Cadets was "childish, professionalism and pathetic". This seemed to be a common theme with the reviews. Additionally it didnt seem to be able to hold a light to VMI or the CItadel. Can anyone offer insight?
     
  2. Bulldogsam17

    Bulldogsam17 S

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    I think it just all depends on what clubs and activities you want to be apart of once your in the Corps of Cadets, I actually was debating between Norwich and the Citadel and currently still am. For me personally, The Citadel seems more rigorous just because of Knob Recognition Day in April or May. But that is exactly what I'm looking for to include that its recognized as the first Marine ROTC in the nation from what I've read. Norwich has a lot of opportunities as well with their Cold Weather and Mountain Company and Ranger Company. It is also the oldest SMC. Wherever you decide to go to seek a commission I think its entirely based on the service because all SMC's do produce quality officers.
     
  3. bruno

    bruno Retired Staff Member

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    There are some things that you really need to know about every Academy and SMC and even the Maritime Colleges. THE VERY FIRST ONE is that Cadets and Midshipman Like to *****- infact they have honed the art of *****ing to a very fine edge. Everythng at their school "is the worst"- whether it is the barracks, the food, the level of general "stupidity" that they must endure etc... Unfortunately- the rise of Facebook and Twitter etc has given this a much bigger megaphone than in the past and often it reacehes the ears of the innocent. This is a phenomenon that parents- mothers especially- often fall victim to and so do prospective cadets- they believe virtually all of what they hear of "stoop poop" (to use an old VMI barracks term for the cadet rumor and griping mill). This is a real mistake. It's all for internal consumption and shouldn't be taken out of context- ie... you should listen and then ignore, because it happens at all of them. It's basically just Cadet gas being passed:eek:. If you want to get the real story- YOU HAVE TO VISIT, spend some time and talk one on one with Cadets- who surprisingly will when asked directly, tell you just how much truth is really there in what you have read. So DO NOT TAKE everything you read on those sites as anything more than blah blah. GO VISIT!!! As the girl on the State Farm commercial discovers- everything on the internet may not be the exact truth: http://commercialsociety.wordpress.com/2012/06/
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  4. NorwichDad

    NorwichDad Member

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    Well said Bruno. You have to visit these schools and do the overnight. DS learned a lot from that one night at Norwich. Everything those cadets said, many now officers in the US Military, really was true. What they told him that one night gave him the information he needed to create his own path to his goal. Understand that the school only counts a little bit. It is what you do with your own gifts and opportunities that counts.

    BTW Ranger company is only open to Army ROTC. Not sure about Cold Weater Mountain Rescue.
     
  5. alexkrills9

    alexkrills9 Member

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    NorwichDad, do you know where i could find out if NROTC is eligible for the Cold Weather Mountain Rescue?
     
  6. akandrews

    akandrews Member

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    I called Norwich, and as far as I understand it, if you are in the Corps of Cadets, you have to attend 6 semesters of one of the ROTC options. If you choose Army, you can join the Ranger program. Mountain and Cold Weather is open to any of the three.
     
  7. philmont

    philmont Member

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    Sort of...It is my understanding that as of last year MCW is limited to Army ROTC as well. Contact 802.485.2135 Commandants Office for confirmation.
    http://www.norwich.edu/cadets/specialunits.html
    As far as Ranger Company, any AROTC Rook or Cadet can join but it is a competitive process with progressive elimination that lasts a year (starts in the fall semester) with the Culmination if successful of earning your Cat Eyes at the end of the year (spring semester).
    The Ranger Challenge Team is also open to AROTC Rooks and Cadets and is a competitive selection every year for the team.

    RLTW!
     
  8. akandrews

    akandrews Member

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    I just called and asked today, and we were there last week and heard the same thing - that MCW is open to more than just AROTC. Of course, never hurts verifying for yourself .
     
  9. NorwichDad

    NorwichDad Member

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    As far as I know Ranger Challenge/Bold Leader Challenge teams are strictly Army ROTC at all schools. Anyone disagree?
     
  10. NorwichDad

    NorwichDad Member

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    I thought so. That team is used for real rescues. They saved a lot of people during huricane Irene, the first week of school a year ago september. They got little rest.
     
  11. philmont

    philmont Member

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    Part One of 2

    You're right, some non AROTC Cadets can participate. During the fall of 2011, primarily due to insurance and liability there was much reconstruction with the Norwich speciality teams.
    All the non-Army Cadets were told they could no longer do no MCW. It was not pretty. In january 2012 they restuctured things that again allowed non Army Cadets to participate if conditions were met. *Below is a copy of the announcement of the speciality units which fall under the AROTC Battalion. *
    Part 2 (next post) details how none AROTC can participate:


    Announcement regarding Norwich Independent Battery and specialty units
    by Norwich University Alumni on Saturday, January 21, 2012 at 7:10pm ·
    Effective this semester, Norwich Independent Battery is deactivated as a Norwich University Corps of Cadet unit. Ceremonial Artillery support to the school now falls under the Norwich Artillery Battery, which is a newly activated unit within the Army ROTC Battalion. This means the Army ROTC Battalion now consists of A, B and C Company, Mountain Cold Weather Company, Ranger Company and the Norwich Artillery Battery. This change is being made in an effort to raise the unit’s level of overall professionalism by placing all specialized military training under the purview of ROTC.*
    *
    Over the past couple of years, all of the ROTC services have evaluated training outside of their traditional service curriculum to ensure the highest standards of training, qualification, safety and accountability while being cognizant of liability issues. A unit-by-unit review was completed last semester focusing on specialty units operating on campus, and the Army ROTC department model remains the best model to follow. As such, the Norwich Artillery Battery, using equipment and ammunition owned by the Army, will utilize the Army’s Training Management System to review its mission and task organization and establish yearly training calendars and training schedules in support of the ceremonial artillery mission.*
    *
    COL Smith’s detachment is in the process of establishing minimum volunteer criteria to fill the ranks of the Norwich Artillery Battery from an Army ROTC enrollment of nearly 600 cadets. The leadership positions – Battery Commander, Executive Officer and First Sergeant – will be filled first and will be the only positions remaining on the Norwich University Corps of Cadets Unit Manning Roster (UMR) similar to the model in place for Mountain and Cold Weather Company. It is expected that the Norwich Artillery Battery will be trained and in place to fulfill its first mission at the Junior Ring Parade scheduled for April 20, 2012. There will be no change in ceremonial support at traditions important to Norwich to include football games, parades and commencement.*
    *
    Volunteers are currently limited to cadets enrolled in Army ROTC classes. We realize this may impact up to sixteen former members of Norwich Independent Battery in the short-term, and we are exploring possibilities for remedying this. At issue is the ability for assigned Army ROTC personnel to train Norwich cadets either not enrolled in Army ROTC or not involved in any ROTC on campus or not on a commission track in any service, to participate in the Norwich Artillery Battery. This is a strategic issue of which President Schneider and the Board of Trustees are aware and an issue to be addressed at Association of Military Colleges and Military Schools of the United States ( AMSCUS). Going forward, the desired outcome is to reach consensus and make provisions to allow cadets from any service, and those not pursuing contracts for commission, to participate in specialty military training that would otherwise enhance their Norwich experience through challenging leadership and technical skill training.*
     
  12. philmont

    philmont Member

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    Part 2 of announcement

    Questions and Answers:
    *
    Whose decision was it to deactivate the Norwich Independent Battery (NIB)?*
    *
    The final decision to deactivate the NIB was made by the Commandant’s Office with the Army ROTC Department providing primary input.*
    *
    Why was the NIB changed to the Norwich Artillery Battery (NAB)?
    *
    The Army ROTC Department activated the Norwich Artillery Battery due to changes within the U.S. Army. Specifically, the 75mm pack howitzers and ammunition are property of the U. S. Army. Firing of the guns and operation of the equipment pose potential liability and safety issues for the Army ROTC Department if the proper task organization is not in place and the Army’s Training Management System is not followed.*
    *
    Under this Task Organization the Army ROTC Department now has full control of the training, certification and accountability and risk management for the Norwich Artillery Battery.*
    *
    What is the primary focus of the Norwich Artillery Battery?*
    *
    The primary focus of the Norwich Field Artillery Battery as it supports ceremonial field artillery missions on campus can be categorized by the following:*
    *
    Safety – The Army requires personnel to be properly trained, certified and supervised to use or operate Army equipment. A composite risk management assessment (CRM) will be conducted before undertaking any training.
    Training/Certification – The Army requires a structured and documented training certification program, supervised by Army Active Duty Cadre, to operate US Army Field Artillery equipment. This is consistent with all Army Training and ensures the cannons are utilized properly and safely.
    Accountability – The Army requires Army personnel to be properly trained and certified or enrolled ROTC Cadets who have successfully completed an approved training/certification program conducted by Army personnel to operate Army equipment and ensure that nothing is lost, damaged, or destroyed.
    Liability – The Army expects personnel to be properly trained and supervised when conducting any training in order to prevent injuries. Enrolled ROTC Cadets who are properly trained, certified, and supervised are covered by workman’s compensation in the event of injury.
    Why is the Norwich Artillery Battery listed as voluntary Practical Military Training (PMT)?
    *
    The NAB is uniquely an AROTC sponsored training activity and warrants designation as voluntary Practical Military Training (PMT). The unit is supervised by Cadre from the AROTC Detachment. The unit is uniquely military in nature and possesses training value in preparing Cadets for a specific Army career. By formally designating NAB as voluntary PMT, the program gains dedicated Army Cadre supervision over its activities, which enhance risk mitigation during voluntary PMT events. Additionally, Cadre members monitor participation in the NAB to prevent Cadets from over-extending themselves in their commitments. As such it ensures authorized Cadets who are properly trained, certified, and supervised are covered by workman’s compensation.*
    *
    Is membership in the Norwich Artillery Battery (NAB) only open to Army ROTC Cadets?*
    *
    By designating the NAB as voluntary Practical Military Training (PMT), it affords all Services (Army ROTC, Air Force ROTC, and Naval ROTC) an opportunity to participate in the training provided they meet the criteria set forth in Title 10 United States Code 2109.*
    *
    Does that mean all students or Cadets at Norwich are authorized to join the Norwich Artillery Battery?*
    *
    No, students must be in the Corps of Cadets and enrolled in an ROTC. Title 10 USC 2109(c) (1) (B) prevents a person from participating in PMT if they are not qualified for advanced ROTC training. The Army ROTC program is separated in to two categories: Basic Course Cadets (Freshmen/Military Science Level (MSL) I and Sophomores/MSL II) and Advanced Course Cadets (Juniors/MSL III and Seniors/MSL IV).*
    *
    To participate in voluntary PMT, Basic Course Cadets must be enrolled in Army ROTC and be capable of qualifying for advanced training. Army ROTC Advanced Course Cadets at Norwich must be contracted with Army ROTC or be capable of contracting with Army ROTC while actively participating in advanced course training. Air Force and Navy have similar advanced training programs. Since sister-service ROTC Cadets are qualified or may become qualified for advanced training, these Cadets are able to participate in AROTC designated voluntary PMT events. Whether or not MCW or NAB qualifies as PMT for the other services is left to the discretion of individual service Secretary. NUCC Cadets, AROTC Cadets or sister-service Cadets who are unqualified for advanced training may not participate in voluntary PMT.*
    *
    How do other ROTC services (Air Force, Navy, and Marine) Cadets join the Norwich Artillery Battery?
    *
    In order for qualified cadets from other ROTC services to be able to participate in MCW or Norwich Artillery Battery, the ROTC detachment to which the cadet is assigned must submit an authorization/verification memorandum. That memorandum, submitted at the start of each semester, to the AROTC Department will verify those Basic and Advanced Course Cadets who meet the criteria to participate in voluntary PMT. In addition, this memorandum shall confirm that the listed cadets qualify for medical coverage under Department of Labor (DOL) criteria during voluntary PMT activities.*
    *
    As of this date, Naval ROTC cadets are not authorized to participate under Department of the Navy policy. This is an issue that continues to be addressed at the president and AMCSUS (Association of Military Colleges and Military Schools of the United States) level.
    *
    Are Cadets in other ROTC services covered by Workman’s Compensation?*
    *
    Since all Cadets participating in the voluntary PMT activity are affiliated, enrolled or contracted with AROTC or Sister-Service and meet the criteria set forth in 10 USC 2109(c)(1)(B) to participate in voluntary PMT, they are covered medically under DOL Federal Workman’s Compensation Claim process through the Cadet’s respective ROTC program. Claims submitted under Workman’s Compensation are worked thru the Cadet’s respective ROTC detachment.*
    *
    Is this change good for Norwich University?*
    Yes.*
    *
    The move to designate the Norwich Artillery Battery as voluntary Practical Military Training means:*
    A valuable leadership opportunity for ROTC Cadets
    Single responsibility for personnel, training and equipment aligned with the U.S. Army, which provides the artillery pieces and ammunition
    Assurance that the Field Artillery equipment is properly maintained and funded by federal dollars
    Training, certification and supervision by Army personnel for our cadets
    Safety procedures meet and exceed Army standards
    Cadets are covered by Workman’s Compensation (liability)
    Ensures training opportunities are synchronized with Norwich University requirements (Only way to justify utilizing Army Ammunition and assets for non-Army entities)
    Will all members of the NIB be able to volunteer to be in the Norwich Artillery Battery?
    *
    Unfortunately, no. Of the sixteen members of NIB, only those that are currently enrolled in Army ROTC are eligible to volunteer. Members who are enrolled in another ROTC service may request authorization, but the authorization decision rests with the respective service. Approximately five NIB members are able to volunteer.*
    *
    How will the Norwich Artillery Battery fill its ranks?*
    *
    The Army ROTC department will establish minimum criteria for volunteering and will offer opportunities to its nearly 600 assigned cadets and qualified ROTC Cadets from the sister services.*
    *
    What happens to the NIB personnel in regard to their positions within the Norwich University Corps of Cadets?*
    *
    NIB is deactivated from the NUCC Unit Manning Roster (UMR) with the exception of three positions: Battery Commander, Battery Executive Officer and Battery First Sergeant. This is consistent with the Mountain and Cold Weather Company model in that those positions exist on the NUCC UMR, but the selection of cadets for those positions rests with the Army ROTC Department.*
    *
    Where will the NIB personnel be assigned and housed?*
    *
    For the remainder of this year, all personnel will remain in their current barracks. All personnel have been assigned to positions with the 2nd Battalion.*
    *
    What about traditional NIB uniforms and insignia?*
    *
    For the remainder of this year, NIB personnel are authorized to wear their crossed cannons on their headgear and wear an earplug case. The NIB unit patch is not authorized and the cadets have been given unit patches for the units to which they have been assigned. Any NIB apparel is not authorized for wear with any cadet uniform.*
    *
    What happens to all of the NIB’s equipment?
    *
    A joint inventory will confirm what is owned by Norwich University and what is owned by the U. S. Army. The Army will be responsible for its equipment, namely the ammunition and pack howitzers, and the Commandant’s Office will ensure that guns and equipment owned by Norwich are placed where it can be preserved to best tell the history of artillery at Norwich and be accessible to current students, faculty/staff, prospective students, alumni and visitors to the school.*
    *
    *
    For further information, please contact COL Rick Van Arnam (802) 485-2225 or cmdt@norwich.edu or COL Steve Smith (802) 485-2480 or ssmith5@norwich.edu. *
     
  13. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I have to agree with Bruno on this one.

    When my oldest son started looking at schools I thought it would be a good ideat to look at some of the sites that have student reviews of the colleges and universities, boy were we shocked.

    If my son would have listened to the reviews he would not have attended any school and would have just hid in a box in the back room.

    You have to take these reviews with a very large grain of salt. These reviews are coming from people you have never met, you have no idea what made them form their opinions.

    Negetive reveiws are much more fun to write and usually are a result of something that went wrong with the reviewers experience. We fianlly stopped looking at them, my son visited each school, talked with people face to face and made his own decision. Had he listened to the reviews he would have never went to the school he attended, what a mistake that would have been, he loved his four years and couldn't imagine having gone anywhere else.

    Research these schools yourself, make your own observations, leave the review boards to those who like to hear themselves talk.

    Best of luck to you.
     

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