Change for West Point

I will donate some time and money to help the renaming commission here. Let's see...wikipedia...list of monuments...here we go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_at_the_United_States_Military_Academy

Air Cadet Monument - celebrates climate change, monument is all white and therefore promotes white supremacy, and the sundial top is cultural appropriation of North African technology. Recommend removal.

American Soldier's Statue - glorifies assault weapons, is not inclusive and "others" soldiers that fought for the United states who were immigrants and/or BIPoC. Recommend removal.

Battle Monument - Column designed by Stanford White. Name suggests white supremacy. Drugged and raped his future wife - known "me to" sex offender. Recommend removal.

Buckner Memorial - Son of Confederate general. Recommend removal.

Cadet Monument - Phallic and white. Brings forth images of patriarchy and white supremacy. Not inclusive. Recommend removal.

Corbin Monument - Associated with white supremacist group Daughters of American Revolution. Promoted exclusion of potential BIPoC participants. Recommend removal.

Custer Monument - Glorifies white supremacy and genocide of Indigenous Americans. Recommend removal.

Dade Monument - Glorifies white supremacy and genocide of Indigenous Americans. Recommend removal.

Eisenhower Monument - Supported subjection of Asians under American and European colonial rule. White supremacist. Recommend removal.

Flight Memorial - Non inclusive patriarchal design glorifies typical European male anatomy. Ignores contributions of BIPoC and female identifying service members. White supremacist. Recommend removal.

Kelleher-Jobes Memorial Arch - Located on "Flirtation Walk." While not confirmed white supremacist and while located in a location with non-consensual touching nomenclature the Commission at this time does not recommend removal absent confirmation of triggering circumstances by the current student body. Once such confirmation is reported, we recommend removal.

Kosciuszko's Monument - Slave owner. Recommend removal.

L'Ecole Polytechnique Monument - Glorifies the French. Recommended to remain in place.

MacArthur Monument - Glorifies conquistador invader of Mexico. Recommend removal.

Patton Monument - Glorifies conquistador invader of Mexico. Recommend removal.

Parker-McAniff Memorial - Under review.

Sedgwick Monument - Glorifies conquistador invader of Mexico. Recommend removal.

Sheridan Memorial - Associated with segregation era of college sports. Not inclusive. Recommend renovation and updated names to memorialize BIPoC inclusion era football players.

Southeast Asia Memorial - Glorifies subjection of Asians under American and European colonial rule. White supremacist. Recommend removal.

Thayer Monument - Associated with segregation era of academy admissions. White supremacist. Recommend removal.

Washington Monument - Slave owner. Recommend removal and destruction.

Wirt Robinson Memorial - Associated with Eurocentric learning styles and supporter of systemic racist pedagogies. Recommend removal.

Wood's Monument - Warmonger who attacked First Nations population of Canada. Recommend removal and relocation to Niagara.


I am available to assist with other historical monuments as well. I also rate chicken sandwiches. Just let me know.
 
JP4 said:
I will donate some time and money to help the renaming commission here. Let's see...wikipedia...list of monuments...here we go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_at_the_United_States_Military_Academy

Air Cadet Monument - celebrates climate change, monument is all white and therefore promotes white supremacy, and the sundial top is cultural appropriation of North African technology. Recommend removal.

American Soldier's Statue - glorifies assault weapons, is not inclusive and "others" soldiers that fought for the United states who were immigrants and/or BIPoC. Recommend removal.

Battle Monument - Column designed by Stanford White. Name suggests white supremacy. Drugged and raped his future wife - known "me to" sex offender. Recommend removal.

Buckner Memorial - Son of Confederate general. Recommend removal.

Cadet Monument - Phallic and white. Brings forth images of patriarchy and white supremacy. Not inclusive. Recommend removal.

Corbin Monument - Associated with white supremacist group Daughters of American Revolution. Promoted exclusion of potential BIPoC participants. Recommend removal.

Custer Monument - Glorifies white supremacy and genocide of Indigenous Americans. Recommend removal.

Dade Monument - Glorifies white supremacy and genocide of Indigenous Americans. Recommend removal.

Eisenhower Monument - Supported subjection of Asians under American and European colonial rule. White supremacist. Recommend removal.

Flight Memorial - Non inclusive patriarchal design glorifies typical European male anatomy. Ignores contributions of BIPoC and female identifying service members. White supremacist. Recommend removal.

Kelleher-Jobes Memorial Arch - Located on "Flirtation Walk." While not confirmed white supremacist and while located in a location with non-consensual touching nomenclature the Commission at this time does not recommend removal absent confirmation of triggering circumstances by the current student body. Once such confirmation is reported, we recommend removal.

Kosciuszko's Monument - Slave owner. Recommend removal.

L'Ecole Polytechnique Monument - Glorifies the French. Recommended to remain in place.

MacArthur Monument - Glorifies conquistador invader of Mexico. Recommend removal.

Patton Monument - Glorifies conquistador invader of Mexico. Recommend removal.

Parker-McAniff Memorial - Under review.

Sedgwick Monument - Glorifies conquistador invader of Mexico. Recommend removal.

Sheridan Memorial - Associated with segregation era of college sports. Not inclusive. Recommend renovation and updated names to memorialize BIPoC inclusion era football players.

Southeast Asia Memorial - Glorifies subjection of Asians under American and European colonial rule. White supremacist. Recommend removal.

Thayer Monument - Associated with segregation era of academy admissions. White supremacist. Recommend removal.

Washington Monument - Slave owner. Recommend removal and destruction.

Wirt Robinson Memorial - Associated with Eurocentric learning styles and supporter of systemic racist pedagogies. Recommend removal.

Wood's Monument - Warmonger who attacked First Nations population of Canada. Recommend removal and relocation to Niagara.


I am available to assist with other historical monuments as well. I also rate chicken sandwiches. Just let me know.
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Might as well cancel the U.S. constitution and Declaration of Independence too while you're at it! The final logical conclusion of cancel culture is that the idea of the United States as a country needs to be eliminated from history.

I've often wondered what African-American soldiers think about this issue. Are they offended? I think they care more about the abysmal barracks conditions and bad mess hall food. Has a study ever been done on this?

I do agree that there is a difference between veneration and academic remembrance. To me, it would be the strongest argument supprting the renaming of anything. But where do you draw the line?

BTW, I still can't believe they decided on "Fort Liberty" to replace Fort Bragg...
 
Chockstock said:
Might as well cancel the U.S. constitution and Declaration of Independence too while you're at it! The final logical conclusion of cancel culture is that the idea of the United States as a country needs to be eliminated from history.

I've often wondered what African-American soldiers think about this issue. Are they offended? I think they care more about the abysmal barracks conditions and bad mess hall food. Has a study ever been done on this?

I do agree that there is a difference between veneration and academic remembrance. To me, it would be the strongest argument supprting the renaming of anything. But where do you draw the line?

BTW, I still can't believe they decided on "Fort Liberty" to replace Fort Bragg...
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I think it depends. Some of the naming was done as a snub against integration of the Army, such as naming a housing area on West Point after Lee.
I don’t have an issue with representations of Lee at West Point as the Supe. That’s part of USMA history. But after the war a point was made not to have Confederate monuments at West Point and this remained in place until integration.
As for Fort Bragg, do you actually know anything about Bragg? He is consistently ranked as one of the worst generals of the Civil War. I was always confused to see his name on an installation. Posts should be named after hero’s and great officers, not duds.
en.m.wikipedia.org

Braxton Bragg - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

 
DTT!FSA! said:
Article III, Section 3, Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
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A1Janitor said:
We are a collection of states. I am not sure how the losing side in a civil war are traitors. Had the North lost, would my family who fought for the North been traitors?
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As far as I know, the right of a state or collection of States to withdraw from the United States has never been determined by legal process. Winning a war gives the victor the power to steer the course of the post war discuss, but at the time General Lee was fighting the US forces, he did not consider himself a US citizen, and did not consider himself bound by the US constitution. Did we hang any Confederate soldiers for treason, or were they treated as prisoner's of war from a foreign country ?

It would be interesting for some state to bring a case asserting the right to secede from the US, and have it go through the legal process rather than forcing states to belong to a union they no longer believe in,
 
Old Navy BGO said:
As far as I know, the right of a state or collection of States to withdraw from the United States has never been determined by legal process. Winning a war gives the victor the power to steer the course of the post war discuss, but at the time General Lee was fighting the US forces, he did not consider himself a US citizen, and did not consider himself bound by the US constitution. Did we hang any Confederate soldiers for treason, or were they treated as prisoner's of war from a foreign country ?

It would be interesting for some state to bring a case asserting the right to secede from the US, and have it go through the legal process rather than forcing states to belong to a union they no longer believe in,
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Texas v. White's majority opinion says no secession "except through revolution or through consent of the States," which has pretty much always been the status quo. You declare independence/secession then you have to "prove it" on the field of battle. If you win, congratulations. Good luck setting up your independent economy, establishing foreign trade, establishing diplomatic relations, etc. If you lose, you've ruined millions of lives and wrecked your economy for basically nothing, not to mention you'll be the butt of loser jokes for the next 150+ years.
 
tornadowarning33 said:
Texas v. White's majority opinion says no secession "except through revolution or through consent of the States," which has pretty much always been the status quo. You declare independence/secession then you have to "prove it" on the field of battle. If you win, congratulations. Good luck setting up your independent economy, establishing foreign trade, establishing diplomatic relations, etc. If you lose, you've ruined millions of lives and wrecked your economy for basically nothing, not to mention you'll be the butt of loser jokes for the next 150+ years.
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The bounty if you win though ;)
 
Sure, just give back all of the federally owned equipment, federal money given to your state since the beginning of time (plus interest), and forfeit any claim to federally owned land, which includes all the military bases.

Should set the newly formed midget nation on a comfortable path...
 
FutureAdademyDad? said:
Sure, just give back all of the federally owned equipment, federal money given to your state since the beginning of time (plus interest), and forfeit any claim to federally owned land, which includes all the military bases.

Should set the newly formed midget nation on a comfortable path...
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The CSA didn't give any of that stuff back when they seceded, and had they won they certainly would have kept all of those assets. To the victor go the spoils.

There's no chance that a victorious seceding side would willingly let a now foreign power that they just defeated in combat maintain military installations on its territory.
 
A1Janitor said:
The bounty if you win though ;)
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Sure, but there's no guarantee that the new government will succeed long-term in order to enjoy it. Nascent nations are very fragile things. I feel like we're far enough removed from our revolution that most people take for granted just how difficult those early experimental years were.
 
tornadowarning33 said:
Sure, but there's no guarantee that the new government will succeed long-term in order to enjoy it. Nascent nations are very fragile things. I feel like we're far enough removed from our revolution that most people take for granted just how difficult those early experimental years were.
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I was joking. A state couldn't win.
 
FutureAdademyDad? said:
Sure, just give back all of the federally owned equipment, federal money given to your state since the beginning of time (plus interest), and forfeit any claim to federally owned land, which includes all the military bases.

Should set the newly formed midget nation on a comfortable path...
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Nah, you nationalize all of that.
 
It is a mistake to analyze history through contemporary values and norms. Civil War era leaders of the country and military viewed Lee, Jackson, etc. as honorable men. I agree with Lincoln, Grant and others who understood the times better than we do.
 
jl123 said:
It is a mistake to analyze history through contemporary values and norms. Civil War era leaders of the country and military viewed Lee, Jackson, etc. as honorable men. I agree with Lincoln, Grant and others who understood the times better than we do.
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At that time it was made clear that there would be nothing honoring those who fought for the rebellion at West Point. If you look, everything honoring those who did came much, much later as a slap at the integration of the military. So that is the historic context. So yeah, I agree with Grant who felt such honors did not belong at West Point.
 
"I have never on the field of battle sent you where I was unwilling to go myself, nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers. You can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the government to which you have surrendered can afford to be and will be magnanimous."

Nathan Bedford Forest Farewell Address May 9, 1865
 
UHBlackhawk said:
At that time it was made clear that there would be nothing honoring those who fought for the rebellion at West Point. If you look, everything honoring those who did came much, much later as a slap at the integration of the military. So that is the historic context. So yeah, I agree with Grant who felt such honors did not belong at West Point.
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Good point. I should have been more clear. My comment was meant to be in regard to the character of the men in general and the recent popularity of denigrating our historical figures for political purposes, and not to the specific issue of monuments at West Point.
 
AF6872 said:
"I have never on the field of battle sent you where I was unwilling to go myself, nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers. You can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the government to which you have surrendered can afford to be and will be magnanimous."

Nathan Bedford Forest Farewell Address May 9, 1865
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Forest is a complicated historical figure, and is an example where it is worthwhile to look at the entire man.
He was well respected in the war by both sides as one of the finest cavalry officers, yet his reputation was besmirched by the Ft Pillow massacre.
Post war he is remembered as being a member of the KKK (I don’t know of any proof that he was the grand master), but this was at the beginning of the organization. Later he attempted to disband the organization and even offered to help stamp it out.
Ironically given his veneration in the South during the civil rights fight, he came out against segregation after becoming a Presbyterian and was attacked in many southern papers.
“Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)”
Nathanial Bedford Forest, 1875
After giving this speech Forest kissed a black lady who had given him flowers, on the cheek. This caused an outrage in the Southern press.
 
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UHBlackhawk said:
I think it depends. Some of the naming was done as a snub against integration of the Army, such as naming a housing area on West Point after Lee.
I don’t have an issue with representations of Lee at West Point as the Supe. That’s part of USMA history. But after the war a point was made not to have Confederate monuments at West Point and this remained in place until integration.
As for Fort Bragg, do you actually know anything about Bragg? He is consistently ranked as one of the worst generals of the Civil War. I was always confused to see his name on an installation. Posts should be named after hero’s and great officers, not duds.
en.m.wikipedia.org

Braxton Bragg - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

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Thank you. I've been waiting for you to weigh in.
 
FutureAdademyDad? said:
Sure, just give back all of the federally owned equipment, federal money given to your state since the beginning of time (plus interest), and forfeit any claim to federally owned land, which includes all the military bases.
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It's always interesting to see the flow of federal dollars. The states that receive the most, net of federal taxes paid, are always the one's screaming the loudest about the federal government with their Putinesque threats of succession.
 
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